T1E extension refused. Advice needed.

Hi members,

I read topics regarding to job creation for T1E extension in this forum, and found them mostly focusing on how to combine 2 part-time jobs, or different employees for same full-time job. I understand there is no guidance on how HO assesses the employment creation, but I would like to discuss with you about my situation.

My first employee started with 15 hours per week part-time because she was studying. After 3 months, she decided to drop university and asked us to let her work full-time hours, so we increase her hours to 30 hours per week for the same job. After 9 months working full-time, she wants to lower the hours back to 15 hours again so she can go back to study.

My second employee is under similar situation that she wants to increase to full-time hours but after graduation from university.

So the jobs are the same and will both exist over 12 months, the employees are the same and as they keep working for me, total hours for each job will be accumulated and eventually over 12(month)*120(hours)=1,440 hours.

I applied my initial T1E visa in Mar 2015 and will apply my extension around next autumn. If another part-time job needed to be created to fill job creation and exist for at least 12 months, then I better do it recently.

Just want to hear what you think whether I can fulfill the requirement for job creation or if some member had similar situation and what would you recommend me to do. I really appreciate my hard working employees so ideally want to keep them and give them their preferred hours, but obviously I need my VISA extension as well after putting 200k investment in UK.

Thanks for any feedback.

On the form and in each job creation table, you enter each period worked on a separate row and tick part time/full time as appropriate

What is the pattern for the 2nd employee for part-time/full-time ?

You have employee 1 on 9 months full-time and you can combine the 3 months part-time with employee 2 part-time. That would satisfy the requirement of 1 job for 12 months.

If your second employee then has 12 months full-time, I would suspect you have no problems.

But if you are then trying to combine 2nd employee part-time with the 1st employee's part-time again, I am not sure. In principle, I think they should accept it, but it is a bit unclear. The challenge is whether the CW will see that as 1st job more than 12 months and 2nd job less than 12 months.

I would try to avoid that situation if I were in your shoes.

zimba88 wrote:On the form and in each job creation table, you enter each period worked on a separate row and tick part time/full time as appropriate

Thank you zimba88.

I have the form for employment created (Table 3b2) so I understand the format you mentioned. I just wasn't sure if they will accept same employee repeatedly listed on the same table and the combined hours between switching from full-time and part-time. It's good to know that it is fine .

iveelu wrote:

zimba88 wrote:On the form and in each job creation table, you enter each period worked on a separate row and tick part time/full time as appropriate

Thank you zimba88.

I have the form for employment created (Table 3b2) so I understand the format you mentioned. I just wasn't sure if they will accept same employee repeatedly listed on the same table and the combined hours between switching from full-time and part-time. It's good to know that it is fine .

To be clear, the guidance says "the hours of workers in 2 part-time jobs can be combined"

The example also talks about two different workers and two different jobs.

Unless someone has experience to the contrary, I would guess that combining two part-time stretches for the same job (irrespective of whether it is one worker or two) would not be allowed. So, for worker 1, the 1st three months cannot be combined with the 3 months after she went back to part-time. In my opinion, even hiring a different worker to the same job will not allow you to combine.

Of course, you have the freedom to decide what is a separate job and what is the same job.

marcnath wrote:

iveelu wrote:

zimba88 wrote:On the form and in each job creation table, you enter each period worked on a separate row and tick part time/full time as appropriate

Thank you zimba88.

I have the form for employment created (Table 3b2) so I understand the format you mentioned. I just wasn't sure if they will accept same employee repeatedly listed on the same table and the combined hours between switching from full-time and part-time. It's good to know that it is fine .

To be clear, the guidance says "the hours of workers in 2 part-time jobs can be combined"

The example also talks about two different workers and two different jobs.

Unless someone has experience to the contrary, I would guess that combining two part-time stretches for the same job (irrespective of whether it is one worker or two) would not be allowed. So, for worker 1, the 1st three months cannot be combined with the 3 months after she went back to part-time. In my opinion, even hiring a different worker to the same job will not allow you to combine.

Of course, you have the freedom to decide what is a separate job and what is the same job.

Thank you for your opinions.

I do want to know if any member had similar situation and would like to share their experiences. Otherwise I will need to consider very safe options by guideline and examples, and adjust working hours for my employees.

Hi Bro,

i also have a not exactly but looks like a similar kind of problem like you. Let me tell you

I combined 2 part timers with one full timer, both part timer worked for three months (06 hrs+ 24 Hrs /week= 30hrs/week) and full timer who replace them worked for 09 months.

as per policy no clear guidance available, i am also going to apply in next month for extension.

wahmed786 wrote:Hi Bro,

i also have a not exactly but looks like a similar kind of problem like you. Let me tell you

I combined 2 part timers with one full timer, both part timer worked for three months (06 hrs+ 24 Hrs /week= 30hrs/week) and full timer who replace them worked for 09 months.

as per policy no clear guidance available, i am also going to apply in next month for extension.

Yours seem to fit the guideline well to qualify for points for 1 of the 2 jobs needed.
Is the second job a full time person for 12 months ?

marcnath wrote:

wahmed786 wrote:Hi Bro,

i also have a not exactly but looks like a similar kind of problem like you. Let me tell you

I combined 2 part timers with one full timer, both part timer worked for three months (06 hrs+ 24 Hrs /week= 30hrs/week) and full timer who replace them worked for 09 months.

as per policy no clear guidance available, i am also going to apply in next month for extension.

Yours seem to fit the guideline well to qualify for points for 1 of the 2 jobs needed.
Is the second job a full time person for 12 months ?

Yes the other job have no issue he is working more then 12 months as a full time worker

regards

Dear marcnath,

Now question is how i can combine these job through documentary evidence as per table in guideline

this is how i did, please tell me is it right way ?


Job Number: 2
Job Title: Marketing Assistant

This job is being combined with another job to make equivalent of 1 full time job,
indicate which job: 03.

Employee Name Start Date in Job End Date in Job No of Hours/Week Part-Time
XXXXXXX 15/01/2016 01/10/2016 06/week _____ Yes

Job Number: 3
Job Title: Marketing Assistant

This job is being combined with another job to make equivalent of 1 full time job, indicate which job: 02.

Employee Name Start Date in Job End Date in Job No of Hours/Week Part Time
xxxxxxx 01/07/2016 01/10/2016 24/week Yes

Job Number: 4
Job Title: Marketing Assistant

This job is being combined with another job to make equivalent of 1 full time job, indicate which job: 02 & 03.

Employee Name Start Date in Job End Date in Job Hours/Week Full-Time
xxxxxx 01/10/2016 Till Now/Still Working 30/week Yes


i need help in this regards

best regrads

zimba88 wrote:On the form and in each job creation table, you enter each period worked on a separate row and tick part time/full time as appropriate

According to my understanding of the guidance, I agree with Zimba88's reply as above.

wahmed786 wrote:Dear marcnath,

Now question is how i can combine these job through documentary evidence as per table in guideline

this is how i did, please tell me is it right way ?


Job Number: 2
Job Title: Marketing Assistant

This job is being combined with another job to make equivalent of 1 full time job,
indicate which job: 03.

Employee Name Start Date in Job End Date in Job No of Hours/Week Part-Time
XXXXXXX 15/01/2016 01/10/2016 06/week _____ Yes

Job Number: 3
Job Title: Marketing Assistant

This job is being combined with another job to make equivalent of 1 full time job, indicate which job: 02.

Employee Name Start Date in Job End Date in Job No of Hours/Week Part Time
xxxxxxx 01/07/2016 01/10/2016 24/week Yes

The length of these two are different, so you only get 1 full time job for 3 months (based on Job number 3)

wahmed786 wrote:Job Number: 4
Job Title: Marketing Assistant

This job is being combined with another job to make equivalent of 1 full time job, indicate which job: 02 & 03.

Employee Name Start Date in Job End Date in Job Hours/Week Full-Time
xxxxxx 01/10/2016 Till Now/Still Working 30/week Yes


i need help in this regards

best regrads

Job 4 is a full time job, so it is not being combined with another job.

You can explain in your cover letter that 1 employee for 12 months is made up of combining part-time jobs 2 & 3 for three months and full time job 4 for 9 months

Dear marcnath

I wants to clear that i created two full time jobs. One is full time with issue at all and other is combined with part timers and full timer. i asking for the job which is combine with part timers.

Basically i am claiming the point fro the period ended from 01/07/2016 to 30/06/2017. (12months) for part timer combine with full timer

job 02 starts 15/01/2016 but i will claim point from 01/07/2016 to 01/10/2016 (3 Months)
combine with job 03 which start from 01/07/2016 till 01/10/2016 both works for 03 months both left and replaced them through on full timer for next 09 months to complete full one year. and she is till working. to complete the 12 months.

now my question is how to explain HO through papers and at table

regards

wahmed786 wrote:Hi Bro,

i also have a not exactly but looks like a similar kind of problem like you. Let me tell you

I combined 2 part timers with one full timer, both part timer worked for three months (06 hrs+ 24 Hrs /week= 30hrs/week) and full timer who replace them worked for 09 months.

as per policy no clear guidance available, i am also going to apply in next month for extension.

Thanks for sharing.

The difference between your situation and mine is that I am trying to keep it as simple as possible, so I try not to combine jobs.

If it is fine, then my first employee can be counted as full-time job number 1 using her own part-time and full-time working hours, since Job number 1 will exist over 12 months and the total hours will be enough. So can my second employee be counted as full-time job number 2.

I have to admit it concerns me a lots though, since I've never heard about other case by similar situation, and it's not very clear on guidance either.

wahmed786 wrote:Dear marcnath

I wants to clear that i created two full time jobs. One is full time with issue at all and other is combined with part timers and full timer. i asking for the job which is combine with part timers.

Basically i am claiming the point fro the period ended from 01/07/2016 to 30/06/2017. (12months) for part timer combine with full timer

job 02 starts 15/01/2016 but i will claim point from 01/07/2016 to 01/10/2016 (3 Months)
combine with job 03 which start from 01/07/2016 till 01/10/2016 both works for 03 months both left and replaced them through on full timer for next 09 months to complete full one year. and she is till working. to complete the 12 months.

now my question is how to explain HO through papers and at table

regards

Unfortunately, the guidance is not clear on a) whether this can be done and b) how to present it.
The logical assumption is that this should be possible.
The form is not set up for this situation, so you need to do the best you can.
If I were in this situation, I would do as follows:
Job 1: No issues - that is your full time job for 12 months.
Job 2: I would list Employee 2 (part-time) and Employee 4 (fulltime) to cover the 12 month requirement. Indicate it is combined with Job 3 for part-time
Job 3: List Employee 3 (part-time) and Employee 4 (again) to cover the 12 month requirement. Indicate it is combined with Job 2.

In addition, I would explain what I did in the cover letter and clearly state that you have Job 2 and Job 3 in your form make up the 2nd full time job.

This is slightly different from what I answered first. But having looked at the form and the guideline again, I think this is a better solution. Either way, explaining in the cover letter is a must.

iveelu wrote: If it is fine, then my first employee can be counted as full-time job number 1 using her own part-time and full-time working hours, since Job number 1 will exist over 12 months and the total hours will be enough.

Right, so you are assuming that you can combine 9 months of full-time with 6 months of part-time for the same worker within the same job to make up the total hours?

Again, I think it meets the intent of what the government wants to achieve and I personally think it should be allowed. But, as I pointed out, the guideline says workers and 2 part-time, which appear to point to being unable to combine part-time stretches of the same job/worker.

To go to the extreme, would 24 months @ 15 hrs/week be treated as a 1 full time job for 12 months ? I suspect not, even if it should.

If you are going this way, then I would definitely take up Zimba's suggestion and split the stretches into separate rows, so you can clearly indicate which ones you are combining.

Hi All,
I am also confused with job creation, I have one employee he worked in some months 154,136,134,124 and 128 hours but total number of hours are 1570, Please guide will it fulfill the requirement of one full time employee or HO shall consider only hours which are more than 130. Please note I fall under category of pre 6 April 2014 .
My second question is that I don't have the passport copy of my other part time employee with me and now she has left and gone back to Europe, but I have his copy of ID and UK residence. Will it be ok or would it have any problem. Need input of senior members please.

asad ullah wrote:Hi All,
I am also confused with job creation, I have one employee he worked in some months 154,136,134,124 and 128 hours but total number of hours are 1570, Please guide will it fulfill the requirement of one full time employee or HO shall consider only hours which are more than 130. Please note I fall under category of pre 6 April 2014 .

The guideline says "We consider a 30-hour working week to be full-time." So, it is not the total hours that is important - but the need to have 52 weeks, each being 30 hours or more.

asad ullah wrote:My second question is that I don't have the passport copy of my other part time employee with me and now she has left and gone back to Europe, but I have his copy of ID and UK residence. Will it be ok or would it have any problem. Need input of senior members please.

The guideline is "If the employee is an EEA national, the biometric data page of a passport containing their photograph and personal details, or a UK registration certificate/permanent residence document". Look up the "UK registration certificate/permanent residence document" and see if the document you have matches that.

Hi there,

I received my refusal for T1E(200k) extension application today, and would like to know more opinions about my situation. Me and my partner applied for the T1E VISA as entrepreneur team.

My timeline is:
Extension applied: 22/OCT/2018
Fee deducted: 24/OCT/2018
BRP application: 02/NOV/2018
IHS refunded in full(only my partner): 04/DEC/2018
Refusal letter received: 13/DEC/2018

We've awarded 0 points on both investment and job creation, and the reasons from Home Office is below:

-The evidence you have provided is not sufficient because the unaudited accounts that you have submitted do not show the Directors Loan investment in your name. Also does not show the investment as specified above at 45(c)(i) of the Immigration Rules.

(c) the audited or unaudited accounts must show the investment in money made directly in the business by:
(i) the applicant, in their own name,

-The evidence is not sufficient because you have not showed you have created 2 full time jobs for a minimum of 12 months. The evidence you have provided is not sufficient because you have not provided a suitable RTI which states all the employees start dates, hourly rates and pay period as as specified below at paragraph 50(c) of the Immigration Rules. Only 5 months of full time work was created between "A" and "B" but this was not the required 12 months of full time work for 2 jobs.

I spoke to my accountant this afternoon and we are all very confused. He has been providing the accounting service for years, and the same documents for his previous clients have all received positive outcome without these issues.

For the investment, we submit unaudited account that clearly states our directors loan, accompanied with Directors loan agreement, bank statements with every transaction directly from me and my partners account to the company account, we highlighted them and we contributed more than 100,000 each. A cover letter from accountant to explain the total amount as well.

For the job creation, we use 4 part time job to combine into 2 full time job. Job 1 is by A, Job 2 is by B+C+D. All my 8 employees have the same RTI documents, and we highlighted each of their start date, end date etc, all the payslips were submitted so they clearly state the hourly rate as well.(My accountant did mention there is no hourly rate on the RTI, although when they need to have it when submitting it to HMRC, but the RTI itself do not have the hourly rate, so you either calculate the hours and the payment, or you use payslips to show it.) If the case worker can identified hours for A and B, it's exactly the same documents for the rest of my employees. Not to mention that A alone creates more than 5 months of full time hours. I don't understand how the case worker came out with their calculation at all.


We feel very frustrated at the moment as we have prepared everything we can following the guidance, and we put so much effort to run our business everyday but being refused by reasons we don't understand.

Is there anything we can do when we go for our administration review? If you are not allowed to send new evidence, anything else we can do?

What were the exact wording that refers to the Director Loan in the accounts ?

What are the exact detail of the employees, jobs - start/end dates - these seem very different from your discussion last year. What changed ?

For the job creation, please see the breakdown below:

Job 1-
A: 22/09/16 – 18/11/17, 7.2/hr, 1380.50/total hours
Job 2-
B: 17/05/17 – 23/09/17, 7.5/hr, 232.25/total hours
C: 10/11/17 – 15/05/18, 7.2/hr, 197.80/total hours
D: 13/03/18 – 08/07/18, 7.4/hr,58/total hours

Job 1 is combined with Job 2.

Job 3 -
E: 06/03/17 – 15/04/17, 7.2/hr, 184.35/total hours
F: 30/10/17 – 15/05/18, 7.2/hr, 355.38/total hours
G: 14/5/18 – 03/09/18, 7.1/hr, 280.25/total hours

Job 4 -
H: 02/08/17 – 05/08/18, 7.4/hr, 750/total hours

Job 3 is combined with Job 4.

All of these employees are with passport, payslips, RTI. Yet, case worker only calculated partial hours from A and B.

iveelu wrote: ↑

Fri Dec 14, 2018 11:17 am

For the job creation, please see the breakdown below:

Job 1-
A: 22/09/16 – 18/11/17, 7.2/hr, 1380.50/total hours
Job 2-
B: 17/05/17 – 23/09/17, 7.5/hr, 232.25/total hours
C: 10/11/17 – 15/05/18, 7.2/hr, 197.80/total hours
D: 13/03/18 – 08/07/18, 7.4/hr,58/total hours

Job 1 is combined with Job 2.

Job 3 -
E: 06/03/17 – 15/04/17, 7.2/hr, 184.35/total hours
F: 30/10/17 – 15/05/18, 7.2/hr, 355.38/total hours
G: 14/5/18 – 03/09/18, 7.1/hr, 280.25/total hours

Job 4 -
H: 02/08/17 – 05/08/18, 7.4/hr, 750/total hours

Job 3 is combined with Job 4.

All of these employees are with passport, payslips, RTI. Yet, case worker only calculated partial hours from A and B.

That is insufficient information to make a clear conclusion because it is not clear how the hours are distributed monthly or weekly.

But it still looks like you are very far from meeting the requirement, so I think HO decision is correct.

HO should also have give you credit for C, E and G. But D with A does not seem to end up with 30 hrs/week. H and F also is not 30 hrs/week.

Thank you marcnath. Yet I still don't understand the way you explained me the hours.

In my understanding, Job 1 worked 1380.50 hours in 52 weeks, so it's 26.54 hours per week, Job 2 worked 488.05 hours in 52 weeks, so it's 9.38 hours per week. So these 2 jobs should add up enough for 30 hours per week for 52 weeks.

Same for Job 3, which is an average of 15.76 hours per week, with Job 4, 14.42 hours per week. They are both over 1,560 hours.

Am I understanding it wrong.

iveelu wrote: ↑

Fri Dec 14, 2018 4:09 pm

Thank you marcnath. Yet I still don't understand the way you explained me the hours.

In my understanding, Job 1 worked 1380.50 hours in 52 weeks, so it's 26.54 hours per week, Job 2 worked 488.05 hours in 52 weeks, so it's 9.38 hours per week. So these 2 jobs should add up enough for 30 hours per week for 52 weeks.

Same for Job 3, which is an average of 15.76 hours per week, with Job 4, 14.42 hours per week. They are both over 1,560 hours.

Am I understanding it wrong.

The problem is that you calculate total hours, which is wrong.

Immigration rules is very clear that it is 30 hrs/week and that anything over 30 hrs in a week does not count.

Attached is the rough way a CW would calculate (in my opinion) and you will see the problem.
So only A+B, A+C, H+E and H+G are more than 30 hrs/week

I now presume my faults are my misunderstanding to hours calculation, and that my account has put "creditor" instead of "director's loan" on the unaudited account.

I often read on this forum when someone think their Administration Review is very likely to fail, one option is to apply fresh application. May I ask does this means a fresh T1E or a fresh T1E extension? Should we send the application during the wait for AR decision or should we wait until the decision is received to not break my legal stay in UK?

I know it's better to ask these to solicitors, but at the moment, I guess a lot of them are almost going to close for holiday, so I get almost no replies from any solicitor firm... So it will be helpful if you can give me some experience so I can prepare for it. Much appreciated.