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visa refused after 23 months

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umer.shahzad1
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Re: visa refused after 23 months

Post by umer.shahzad1 » Sun Oct 06, 2019 3:33 pm

The transactions are taken from bank statement

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umer.shahzad1
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Re: visa refused after 23 months

Post by umer.shahzad1 » Sun Oct 06, 2019 3:34 pm

These transactions are from my UK personal bank account to business account

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Re: visa refused after 23 months

Post by umer.shahzad1 » Sun Oct 06, 2019 3:53 pm

This investment summary is basically orginated from my personal bank account funds being tranferred to UK business bank

The orgin of these funds are from pakistan

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Re: visa refused after 23 months

Post by umer.shahzad1 » Sun Oct 06, 2019 3:59 pm

this table is basically Summary of director Loan Account this table has been made from my bank statement

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Re: visa refused after 23 months

Post by john2030 » Sun Oct 06, 2019 5:01 pm

allow me to jump in although i am fairly new, but given the 200k avaiablity is a major factor for deciding on extention I had to ask a lot about this.

in summary you need to have 200k sitting in your business account no later than 6months from the time you first landed in UK on your first visa. it does not have to be one shoot, but by end of 6months you must have a total of 200k under your disposal.

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umer.shahzad1
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Re: visa refused after 23 months

Post by umer.shahzad1 » Sun Oct 06, 2019 5:46 pm

you need to register with in 6 months as a director & setup a company or register as self employed investment needs to be covered in 3 years time span

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Re: visa refused after 23 months

Post by Zerubbabel » Sun Oct 06, 2019 6:49 pm

Here are the guidelines:

Image


If the money came to your account in multiple transfers, you won't have a single document showing the transfer of 200K but you will have multiple documents showing that transfer.

It probably falls under this:

(b) Where multiple documents are provided, they must show the total amount required is available on the same date.

Do you have a point where the balance, after multiple transfers from Pakistan, reached 200K?

I see where the Home Office are coming from. I was reading a case the other day that went in front of a tribunal (it was HMRC not the HO), where a group of people created the impression that they had access to a large sum of money by circulating the same money again and again.

If my brother wires me 50K, 10 times in a month, it's not a demonstration that I had access to 500K. The reason is that I can somehow send him the money back then he sends it again. So the ultimate proof of me having access to 500K is a balance in my account that shows at a certain date 500K in my account.

The burden of proof lies on your shoulders. You have to demonstrate that you had access to 200K at one point. If that point cannot be demonstrated, or the documents presented cannot establish it with 100% certainty, the presumption would then play against you and you are not awarded the points for the funds.

The fact that you have bills for stock purchased for 200K is just in itself not a proof that you had access to 200K. They want to see the investment in form of cash not in form of stock.

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umer.shahzad1
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Re: visa refused after 23 months

Post by umer.shahzad1 » Sun Oct 06, 2019 7:09 pm

This is requirement of initial
Application and my application is extension

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umer.shahzad1
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Re: visa refused after 23 months

Post by umer.shahzad1 » Sun Oct 06, 2019 7:28 pm

well the thing is that i did have access to £200k that why i have transferred the funds from overseas to the UK
this is the requirment of initial application where funds need to be held now the funds needs to be transferred into the business and investment must be done


if you see Appendix A Paragraph 37 extension attributes it will give u a an exact idea

investment Specified docs :

45. The applicant must provide their business accounts and accompanying evidence of their investment, which must meet the following requirements:
(a) if the applicant’s business is legally required to produce audited accounts, the audited accounts must be provided;
(b) if the applicant’s business is not legally required to produce audited accounts, unaudited accounts and an accounts compilation report must be provided from an accountant;
(c) the audited or unaudited accounts must show the investment in money made directly in the business by:
(i) the applicant, in their own name,
(ii) one or more seed funding competitions or UK or Devolved Government Departments, as set out in Table 4, and the accounts must be accompanied by a letter from the source, confirming that the investment was made on the applicant’s behalf, or
(iii) a third party other than those in (ii), and the accounts must either:
(1) confirm that the investment was made as a result of the applicant’s activity, or
(2) be accompanied by a letter from the Department for International Trade, confirming that the investment was made as a result of the applicant’s activity;
(d) if the applicant has made the investment in the form of a director’s loan:
(i) it must be shown in the relevant set of accounts provided,
(ii) unless the investment was made on or before 19 November 2015 and the date of application is before 19 November 2021, the investment must be shown through readily identifiable transactions in the applicant’s business bank statements, which must clearly show the transfer of this money from the applicant to their business, and
(iii) the applicant must provide a legal agreement, between the applicant (in the name that appears on their application) and the business, showing:
(1) the terms of the loan,
(2) any interest that is payable,
(3) the period of the loan, and
(4) that the loan is unsecured and subordinated to other creditors’ loans to the business;
(e) if the applicant has made the investment in the form of share capital, the accounts must show the shareholders, the amount and value of the shares (on the date of purchase) in the applicant’s name as it appears on their application. If the value of the applicant’s share capital is not shown in the accounts, then a printout of the company’s register of members from Companies House must be provided;
(f) the accounts must clearly show the name of the accountant, the date the accounts were produced, and how much the applicant has invested in the business;
(g) if the applicant is claiming points for investment from a venture capital firm, they must also provide a dated letter from the venture capital firm, on its headed paper, confirming:
(i) the applicant’s name,
(ii) the date(s) the money was transferred to the applicant or invested in their business
(iii) that the venture capital firm was registered with the Financial Conduct Authority on the date(s) in (ii) above, and
(iv) confirmation that the venture capital firm will verify the contents of the letter to the Home Office on request.
(h) if the applicant is claiming points for investing £50,000 from one of the following sources, and has not been awarded points for those funds in a previous application, they must also provide the following documents:
(i) if the source is a seed funding competition or a UK or devolved government department, the applicant must provide the specified evidence in Table 4A above as evidence of the source of the funds (except that the letter referred to in paragraph 41(a)(i) does not need to be dated within the three months immediately before the date of the application);
(ii) if the source is a venture capital firm, the applicant must provide:
(1) A letter from a director, partner or fund manager of the venture capital firm, which includes:
(_a) confirmation of the amount of money that was made available to the applicant, the entrepreneurial team or the applicant’s business from the organisation,
(_b) a statement providing detailed information on the strategy, structure and financial exposure of the fund,
(_c) a statement detailing the rationale for the investment, providing specific information about the circumstances which led to the investment decision,
(_d) a statement confirming that the business/proposed business is a genuine and credible proposition, and
(_e) confirmation that the venture capital firm was, at the time the investment was made, registered with the Financial Conduct Authority (FCA) and its entry in the register included a permission to arrange, deal in or manage investments, or to manage alternative investment funds.
(2) A copy of the completed term sheet for the investment, signed by all parties to the transaction, which must include details of the company valuation, company structure, founder and investor rights, the structure of funding and the type of security being taken.
(3) A breakdown of the technical, legal, commercial and financial due diligence conducted by the venture capital firm in support of the investment.
(4) A letter from an accountant, validating the financial condition of the fund.
(5) A letter from a legal representative, who is not the applicant, which confirms that the letters and declarations in (1)-(4) contain the genuine signatures of the required signatories. The letter must clearly show the registration or authority of the legal representative to practise legally in the UK.


Source ttps://www.gov.uk/guidance/immigration-rules/i ... attributes

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umer.shahzad1
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Re: visa refused after 23 months

Post by umer.shahzad1 » Sun Oct 06, 2019 7:40 pm

Zerubbabel wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 6:49 pm
Here are the guidelines:

Image


If the money came to your account in multiple transfers, you won't have a single document showing the transfer of 200K but you will have multiple documents showing that transfer.

It probably falls under this:

(b) Where multiple documents are provided, they must show the total amount required is available on the same date.

Do you have a point where the balance, after multiple transfers from Pakistan, reached 200K?

I see where the Home Office are coming from. I was reading a case the other day that went in front of a tribunal (it was HMRC not the HO), where a group of people created the impression that they had access to a large sum of money by circulating the same money again and again. [this comes under money laundring]

If my brother wires me 50K, 10 times in a month, it's not a demonstration that I had access to 500K. The reason is that I can somehow send him the money back then he sends it again. So the ultimate proof of me having access to 500K is a balance in my account that shows at a certain date 500K in my account.[you will never have access but if the same amount is being tranferred then question can be raised but if the amount is different all the time it can be high and low from where the point will come ?]

The burden of proof lies on your shoulders. You have to demonstrate that you had access to 200K at one point. If that point cannot be demonstrated, or the documents presented cannot establish it with 100% certainty, the presumption would then play against you and you are not awarded the points for the funds.

The fact that you have bills for stock purchased for 200K is just in itself not a proof that you had access to 200K. They want to see the investment in form of cash not in form of stock.


purchasing is form is form of investment ,investment in form of cash meaning the money must be shown into the bank account in the form of cash not Stock , shares

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Re: visa refused after 23 months

Post by marcnath » Sun Oct 06, 2019 8:52 pm

This is a tough one.

HO uses credibility, which is a very vague term, so difficult to argue.

I am a bit surprised HO did not ask you show how you satisfy 40(e), which requires you to have had access to the funds throughout. Will you be able to demonstrate that if needed ?

While there is no requirement on how many transactions the amounts need to be transferred. the many small transactions would naturally raise concerns. You would normally expect transfers to be in at least reasonably large amounts - 20K. 40K and so on rather than 1K transactions. Was there any reason why you did so many small transactions ?

You can go for JR, but even if the court pushes it back to HO, if you can't satisfy the clause 40 (e), they can then make a proper rejection by quoting that.
My comments are in no way meant to be advisory. I have no professional knowledge of immigration. These are based on my own experience, convictions and personal interpretation of publicly available information.

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Re: visa refused after 23 months

Post by Zerubbabel » Sun Oct 06, 2019 9:29 pm

umer.shahzad1 wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 7:09 pm
This is requirement of initial
Application and my application is extension
I know, you are not at your initial application but you are at your extension after 3 years.

During your initial application, you showed an account in Pakistan with 200K available for transfer to the UK for purpose of investment. Under that promise, your visa was granted.

When you apply for extension, you have to show that the 200K have been transferred to a UK bank account, have been available to you in full and have been invested in the business.

This 200K sum is central to your immigration route. It's not a lateral question as the purpose of the visa is to bring investors to the UK. So the Home Office needs to be satisfied that once the visa granted, the investor will commit and invest the money in the UK.

Each business is different and works under different circumstances. So each story is indeed different.

The Home Office wants to see a bank statement from a UK bank showing that at a certain date, even if it's for a day, the balance available in cash reached a minimum of 200K.

As you received the money in many (how many?) transfers and used it as it came, you never had 200K in the bank.

You are showing them a stock you value at 200K but this not what they want to see (see 40 a.)

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Re: visa refused after 23 months

Post by umer.shahzad1 » Mon Oct 07, 2019 5:40 am

marcnath wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 8:52 pm
This is a tough one.

HO uses credibility, which is a very vague term, so difficult to argue.

I am a bit surprised HO did not ask you show how you satisfy 40(e), which requires you to have had access to the funds throughout. Will you be able to demonstrate that if needed ?

While there is no requirement on how many transactions the amounts need to be transferred. the many small transactions would naturally raise concerns. You would normally expect transfers to be in at least reasonably large amounts - 20K. 40K and so on rather than 1K transactions. Was there any reason why you did so many small transactions ?

You can go for JR, but even if the court pushes it back to HO, if you can't satisfy the clause 40 (e), they can then make a proper rejection by quoting that.

If you see i have done large transactions as well £21k £23k £12k £10k £9k
The reason for small transaction was my mother haa travelled to usa as she moved there so i need to get it done in small pcs

Lets see what happens thanks for ur feedback

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Re: visa refused after 23 months

Post by umer.shahzad1 » Mon Oct 07, 2019 5:41 am

Zerubbabel wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 9:29 pm
umer.shahzad1 wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 7:09 pm
This is requirement of initial
Application and my application is extension
I know, you are not at your initial application but you are at your extension after 3 years.

During your initial application, you showed an account in Pakistan with 200K available for transfer to the UK for purpose of investment. Under that promise, your visa was granted.

When you apply for extension, you have to show that the 200K have been transferred to a UK bank account, have been available to you in full and have been invested in the business.

This 200K sum is central to your immigration route. It's not a lateral question as the purpose of the visa is to bring investors to the UK. So the Home Office needs to be satisfied that once the visa granted, the investor will commit and invest the money in the UK.

Each business is different and works under different circumstances. So each story is indeed different.

The Home Office wants to see a bank statement from a UK bank showing that at a certain date, even if it's for a day, the balance available in cash reached a minimum of 200K.

As you received the money in many (how many?) transfers and used it as it came, you never had 200K in the bank.

You are showing them a stock you value at 200K but this not what they want to see (see 40 a.)

Thanks for ur feedback i will see what options i have got lets see

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Re: visa refused after 23 months

Post by umer.shahzad1 » Mon Oct 07, 2019 6:13 am

marcnath wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 8:52 pm
This is a tough one.

HO uses credibility, which is a very vague term, so difficult to argue.

I am a bit surprised HO did not ask you show how you satisfy 40(e), which requires you to have had access to the funds throughout. Will you be able to demonstrate that if needed ?
Yes that can be demonstrated if needed i have got third party declarations
While there is no requirement on how many transactions the amounts need to be transferred. the many small transactions would naturally raise concerns. You would normally expect transfers to be in at least reasonably large amounts - 20K. 40K and so on rather than 1K transactions. Was there any reason why you did so many small transactions ?

You can go for JR, but even if the court pushes it back to HO, if you can't satisfy the clause 40 (e), they can then make a proper rejection by quoting that.

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Re: visa refused after 23 months

Post by umer.shahzad1 » Mon Oct 07, 2019 6:46 am

Zerubbabel wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 9:29 pm
umer.shahzad1 wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 7:09 pm
This is requirement of initial
Application and my application is extension
I know, you are not at your initial application but you are at your extension after 3 years.

During your initial application, you showed an account in Pakistan with 200K available for transfer to the UK for purpose of investment. Under that promise, your visa was granted.

When you apply for extension, you have to show that the 200K have been transferred to a UK bank account, have been available to you in full and have been invested in the business.

This 200K sum is central to your immigration route. It's not a lateral question as the purpose of the visa is to bring investors to the UK. So the Home Office needs to be satisfied that once the visa granted, the investor will commit and invest the money in the UK.

Each business is different and works under different circumstances. So each story is indeed different.

The Home Office wants to see a bank statement from a UK bank showing that at a certain date, even if it's for a day, the balance available in cash reached a minimum of 200K. which has been done in my investment summary

As you received the money in many (how many?) transfers and used it as it came, you never had 200K in the bank. 23 transactions

You are showing them a stock you value at 200K but this not what they want to see (see 40 a.) i am not showing them stock worth £200k read the rule if u r showing money in the form of stock is not an acceptable evidence

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Re: visa refused after 23 months

Post by john2030 » Wed Oct 09, 2019 8:24 pm

Zerubbabel wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 6:49 pm
Here are the guidelines:

Image


If the money came to your account in multiple transfers, you won't have a single document showing the transfer of 200K but you will have multiple documents showing that transfer.

It probably falls under this:

(b) Where multiple documents are provided, they must show the total amount required is available on the same date.

Do you have a point where the balance, after multiple transfers from Pakistan, reached 200K?

I see where the Home Office are coming from. I was reading a case the other day that went in front of a tribunal (it was HMRC not the HO), where a group of people created the impression that they had access to a large sum of money by circulating the same money again and again.

If my brother wires me 50K, 10 times in a month, it's not a demonstration that I had access to 500K. The reason is that I can somehow send him the money back then he sends it again. So the ultimate proof of me having access to 500K is a balance in my account that shows at a certain date 500K in my account.

The burden of proof lies on your shoulders. You have to demonstrate that you had access to 200K at one point. If that point cannot be demonstrated, or the documents presented cannot establish it with 100% certainty, the presumption would then play against you and you are not awarded the points for the funds.

The fact that you have bills for stock purchased for 200K is just in itself not a proof that you had access to 200K. They want to see the investment in form of cash not in form of stock.
Thank you for the excellent explanation. Allow me to ask a questions:
I plan to have 250K in my personal account as soon as i open the bank account. i will then open my business account. And plan to transfer 100k from day one. my questions please:
when do i have to hit the 200k mark in my business account? i was under the impression that i have to have the 200k from day one. thanks

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Re: visa refused after 23 months

Post by Zerubbabel » Wed Oct 09, 2019 9:42 pm

No worries.

From what I noticed, is many people don't give a serious thought to the Tier 1 extension. They play very hard to obtain that visa then they relax.

The renewal is assumed to be easy. In fact it's not. Even if you are in the UK running a business for 3 years, the Home Office has no issues with asking an entrepreneur to shutdown and go home. They are trigger happy and don't care about financial losses or anything. For them, a visa was delivered for a purpose and when it comes to extend, they audit that. They are strict and want to see perfect and demonstrable execution.

If the applicant cannot demonstrate something, it didn't happen and it will be a fail.

I would say work for your extension from the first day to set the foot in the UK. If you don't, you will slowly drift from compliance. Then, 2.5 years later when you start preparing for extension, there could be items that cannot be fixed and would have detrimental effect on your renewal.

When you apply for your visa, your claim is that you are holding right now on the investment money. That money is free and immediately releasable for your business. So if you get your visa, immediately transfer that money to a UK bank account and get original statements showing that balance in full.

The last thing you want is a caseworker later disputing the fact that you ever had access to the investment fund. They do. Because it's a strong refusal point. If the caseworker manages to cast serious doubt about the funds, it's a win for him. You are back home and no AR or JR can help you.

If you transfer 100K, do business for a while. Then later transfer more cash as you need it, you can find yourself in a situation where you can't demonstrate that you ever had access to the full amount of the investment.

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Re: visa refused after 23 months

Post by kom » Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:16 am

Hi umer.shahzad1

what is your status now? have you applied for JR?

Did UKVI actioned for your bank account close down and revoking licence?

please update me as my AR is refused now but i am waiting for letter confirmation from UKVI.

Thanks.

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