ESC

Click the "allow" button if you want to receive important news and updates from immigrationboards.com


Immigrationboards.com: Immigration, work visa and work permit discussion board

Welcome to immigrationboards.com!

Login Register Do not show

Not worth it working in UK?

Only for UK Tier 1 (General) points system

Tier 1 (General) points calculator | more about Tier 1 (General)

Moderators: Casa, JAJ, ca.funke, Amber, Zimba, vinny, Obie, EUsmileWEallsmile, batleykhan, geriatrix, John, ChetanOjha, archigabe, push, Administrator

prem12
Member
Posts: 145
Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2007 4:57 pm

Post by prem12 » Thu Nov 01, 2007 1:42 pm

gordon wrote:I've written a 'dessert' -- that's funny !

Given that the average income for Indian migrant workers falls in much the same range as average earnings in the UK, I am unconvinced that they are taking away 'the cream of the cake'. There seem to be quite a lot of cherries and dough on the top side, which means the 'dessert' metaphor is one of a sponge cake (yum !). Migrant workers, by definition, work in sectors that are open to global competition, and migrant workers from a number of other countries appear to outperform Indians. Which then refutes the following:
Among those who get due educational opportunity and exposure , Indians fare much better in the global arena, which is obvious from the numbers of huge diaspora of Indian IT professionals which represent the average, not the best.
But leaving aside the shifting definition of 'average' evinced in the argument (sometimes implicitly defined narrowly, other times applied broadly), my post was principally addressed to the excerpt below, which I found deplorably arrogant and offensive (to say nothing of its being unsubstantiated).
You might have seen a few hundreds but the perception of the world has been made by the hundreds of thousands who are much more capable than average native citizens.

And it looks more like you have tried to delude yourslef that Kiwi/Aussie and English are better off by observing those Indians who were below your capacity but surely you did not dare to see those who indians who are more capanble than Kiwi/Aussie and English , for the fear of breaking thier neck when raise your head to see the number of indians who are smarter than you.
One would have to reconcile the assertions with the evidence base, and advance the argument in a tone commensurate with the strength (or, in this case, sponge-like porosity) of the argument: even the merest exercise of 'mental capacity' in this regard would have shown the disparity between the sweeping claims and the data. And that's scarcely tangential, as mode and tone have as much to do with an argument as the substance.
Gordon,

I really wonder why you cannot understand that I am taliking about the global arena, IT in perticular. Probably it must be difficult fot you to admit the facts. You are uselessly pitching your arguement by slipping back to average earning of migrants. I am talking about the skilled migrants, non the non-skilled ones.

And no one needs statistics to prove the things of general observation, for that matter no one would even give them a look. In fact the lengthy posts from you only show your helplessness.

No one will refute that IT means Indians and IT means best pay.

HSMP_maybe,

What you say is right. Instead of silencing Kaff, the original poster of put a false and tasteless arguement out of jealousness, his friends are helping him further.
________
KLONOPIN REHAB FORUMS
Last edited by prem12 on Wed Mar 02, 2011 8:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ajaysharmanyc2006
Junior Member
Posts: 61
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2007 1:14 pm

skilled vs unskilled population

Post by ajaysharmanyc2006 » Thu Nov 01, 2007 2:43 pm

My two cents on this is that gordon is right to a point since he has some data to back up. you just cannot make a blanket statement that indians IT professionals are superior to rest of the world without providing data to back it up.
Please don't try to counter my argument since I have fist hand experience how indian IT firm works and how they manage to execute project cheap.
Every profession is respectable and you cannot say that you are better than rest of the professional pool of talents.
Don't forget one thing that when any economy takes a nosedive then the first in the line to go out is IT department.
If you think India is flourishing because of sensex then you forget one thing that 90% of the money comes from FII and Promoters. The day FIIs take their money out of the country then Indian economy will tumble down like a card.
So, be humble and respect everyone.
I thought we were famous for our humble attitude...:)

take care,

ajay sharma

itsme
Member of Standing
Posts: 260
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2005 12:31 am
Location: UK

Re: Not worth it working in UK?

Post by itsme » Thu Nov 01, 2007 3:11 pm

HSMP3000 wrote:I got my HSMP approved,but somehow in a dilemma about applying for EC. Seen some job sites for IT jobs in UK and the average somehow is in the range of £25k per annum which I think is on the low side.

I presently work in the IT field in my country and gets something close to £20k in my own curreny which is very ok here.Considering the cost of living in the UK,do you think its worthwhile going to the UK to seek for employment.Some of my friends that have been to UK see it as a difficult,expensive,unfriendly and boring place to work.

Please what you think :?: .
HSMP3000, Am not sure how experienced r u and what ur skillsets are. I suggest you onething before jumping onto conclusions

1) dont just browse job sites and make decisions on salary. Try to find out with your friends/relatives what are highly skilled/paid jobs in UK.
2) Bear in mind that lots of agencies do fishing of CV/Candidates (for future purposes) and many a times job may not be REALLY exisiting.
3) Your Indian salary of INR 16 lakh denotes you might be highly skilled/experienced.Try to come to UK on a Workpermit ( thru any indian company) and parallely get a HSMP. By this your risk can be mitigated to high extent.
4) To maintain same standard of living you need to get a min. of 35-40 k PA GBP.
At any given time contracting is a best option, (min of 300 £ per day, with a limited company on your own)- provided you have good risk bearing capacity..

Coming to your friends experience --->
"""Some of my friends that have been to UK see it as a difficult,expensive,unfriendly and boring place to work."""""

its true to some extent and their comments are based, end of the day your MOTIVE of coming to UK should be clear. Coming to a different country with diff culture/people/socializing etc.....But you are bound to adjust / socialize / make friends accordingly. Its all in the mind.

Well I have seen lots of scenarios.... not so skilled getting good pay jobs ... bit of luck may be.... and at sametime starters had struggled a lot in getting a higly paid job.End of the day its for you to decide, and dont repent whatever your decision is, and 99% of us come to UK / migrate for better PAY ... No one can deny this......
If you need assistance PM me. All the BEST.
You Can Win. Believe in Yourself.
---

prem12
Member
Posts: 145
Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2007 4:57 pm

Re: skilled vs unskilled population

Post by prem12 » Thu Nov 01, 2007 3:45 pm

Ajay,

It is correct that we are known for humble attitude but at the same time it is not good not to protest when someone makes a wrong and deriding remarks. Also my assertions have nothing to do with sensex figures. And from your comments, you are sounding nothing but trying to be prude.

It is only an ignorant who will need statistics to prove that IT is not dominated by Indians. Again only an ignorant will need statistics to belive that IT pays better than other sectors.

And can someone could bring statistics that IT is not dominated by Indian.

Also as I said, no on needs data and statistics to prove that Sun rises in the east.

I have worked in CitiGroup ( Tokyo ), Goldman Sachs ( London ), Morgan Stanley ( New York ) and UBS ( New Jersey ). In all these places I could clearly see more than 50% of the IT was Indian.

It is the same in IT of other domains like Insurance, energy, medical etc.
________
JAILBROKEN
Last edited by prem12 on Wed Mar 02, 2011 8:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Kaff
Member of Standing
Posts: 273
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 1:43 am

Post by Kaff » Thu Nov 01, 2007 7:20 pm

prem12 wrote:
gordon wrote:I've written a 'dessert' -- that's funny !

Given that the average income for Indian migrant workers falls in much the same range as average earnings in the UK, I am unconvinced that they are taking away 'the cream of the cake'. There seem to be quite a lot of cherries and dough on the top side, which means the 'dessert' metaphor is one of a sponge cake (yum !). Migrant workers, by definition, work in sectors that are open to global competition, and migrant workers from a number of other countries appear to outperform Indians. Which then refutes the following:
Among those who get due educational opportunity and exposure , Indians fare much better in the global arena, which is obvious from the numbers of huge diaspora of Indian IT professionals which represent the average, not the best.
But leaving aside the shifting definition of 'average' evinced in the argument (sometimes implicitly defined narrowly, other times applied broadly), my post was principally addressed to the excerpt below, which I found deplorably arrogant and offensive (to say nothing of its being unsubstantiated).
You might have seen a few hundreds but the perception of the world has been made by the hundreds of thousands who are much more capable than average native citizens.

And it looks more like you have tried to delude yourslef that Kiwi/Aussie and English are better off by observing those Indians who were below your capacity but surely you did not dare to see those who indians who are more capanble than Kiwi/Aussie and English , for the fear of breaking thier neck when raise your head to see the number of indians who are smarter than you.
One would have to reconcile the assertions with the evidence base, and advance the argument in a tone commensurate with the strength (or, in this case, sponge-like porosity) of the argument: even the merest exercise of 'mental capacity' in this regard would have shown the disparity between the sweeping claims and the data. And that's scarcely tangential, as mode and tone have as much to do with an argument as the substance.
Gordon,

I really wonder why you cannot understand that I am taliking about the global arena, IT in perticular. Probably it must be difficult fot you to admit the facts. You are uselessly pitching your arguement by slipping back to average earning of migrants. I am talking about the skilled migrants, non the non-skilled ones.

And no one needs statistics to prove the things of general observation, for that matter no one would even give them a look. In fact the lengthy posts from you only show your helplessness.

No one will refute that IT means Indians and IT means best pay.

HSMP_maybe,

What you say is right. Instead of silencing Kaff, the original poster of put a false and tasteless arguement out of jealousness, his friends are helping him further.
Prem, I said what rest of the word knows with thousands of examples. Indian works for money only, that's why they leave their home and so called High salray jobs (Through all fradulant documents), and beg in developed coutries to hire them on any salary, offcourse you would say it is not true?
Now regarding IT and Indians, this is what you think, you are asking to give you statistis, do you have any statistics on that? Please do present them if you are that much confident on your arguments speficially in IT domain. Gordon analysis were very wise and based on standardards figures and if you are that much IT guru then you could have used your common sense to think on those figures and remain silent!

In all your posts you tried to show that how conservative you are! I have no time to argue with you on this matter!
So please chill and save your energy to convince your country men to not to come to developed countried for bright future, if your people are that much confident then work in your home country and make your country proud!

Be creative!
Kaff

herts
Member of Standing
Posts: 363
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2007 6:39 pm

Post by herts » Thu Nov 01, 2007 7:49 pm

Gordon, Go to southall and see how many hours indians work.
Well you are very right with the stats, as given in the paper. Indians mostly have black money( i hope you understand that) the one they show to the govt is very less.

ThirdWorldTraveller
Member of Standing
Posts: 260
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 4:07 pm
Location: Kings Langley

Now thats what I called tasteless

Post by ThirdWorldTraveller » Thu Nov 01, 2007 8:58 pm

Prem, I said what rest of the word knows with thousands of examples. Indian works for money only, that's why they leave their home and so called High salray jobs (Through all fradulant documents), and beg in developed coutries to hire them on any salary, offcourse you would say it is not true?
"
Dear Moderator(s),
I request you to take initiative to discourage and disapprove these kind of remarks. We certainly don't want another 'Big brother' episode here.
Third World Traveller

prem12
Member
Posts: 145
Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2007 4:57 pm

Post by prem12 » Thu Nov 01, 2007 10:55 pm

kaff,

It feels good to see the frustration of you kind of people which shows your implicit admission.

As I said, no one needs stats to prove that sun rises in the east.
Microsoft which does not do any outsourcing has over 20% of engineers from India and Bill gates even voted more H1B because he wanted more Indians. And let me tell you that in organisations like Microsoft which has the best, they do not hire anyone just becuase they can get away with low salary.

Also you seem to be suffering from some kind of complex, jealousy to be correct. You are jealous of Indians having hogged the IT market. This is obvious from the way you brekserk and loose your senses. You are frustrated and desperate to prove something which is not true. Open you eyes and live in light. Taming delusions will not help.

And it may be true what you have seen but as I said previously, you do not dare to raise your head to see the better side and brighter for the fear of breaking your neck.

Keep it up.
________
Fake weed
Last edited by prem12 on Wed Mar 02, 2011 8:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

gordon
Senior Member
Posts: 567
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 3:48 pm

Post by gordon » Thu Nov 01, 2007 11:55 pm

herts wrote:Go to southall
Many thanks for the invitation. It seems a bit far from my parents' house in Chelski, however. But not so dissimilar, perhaps: our Russian neighbours of undescribable wealth don't pay taxes either, but they're non-doms.

1971
Member
Posts: 222
Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2006 1:27 pm

Post by 1971 » Fri Nov 02, 2007 6:49 am

Hi Guys,

Thank you all for your contributions. I appreciate the mobile knowledge of everyone on this issue. Please,let us go back to our HSMP issues.

Thank you all once again.

~1971.

ajaysharmanyc2006
Junior Member
Posts: 61
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2007 1:14 pm

Re: skilled vs unskilled population

Post by ajaysharmanyc2006 » Fri Nov 02, 2007 6:51 am

prem12 wrote:Ajay,

It is correct that we are known for humble attitude but at the same time it is not good not to protest when someone makes a wrong and deriding remarks. Also my assertions have nothing to do with sensex figures. And from your comments, you are sounding nothing but trying to be prude.

It is only an ignorant who will need statistics to prove that IT is not dominated by Indians. Again only an ignorant will need statistics to belive that IT pays better than other sectors.

And can someone could bring statistics that IT is not dominated by Indian.

Also as I said, no on needs data and statistics to prove that Sun rises in the east.

I have worked in CitiGroup ( Tokyo ), Goldman Sachs ( London ), Morgan Stanley ( New York ) and UBS ( New Jersey ). In all these places I could clearly see more than 50% of the IT was Indian.

It is the same in IT of other domains like Insurance, energy, medical etc.
oh boy, you think you can splash names of some heavy weight banks and it will adduce your claim. Well, i was a part of the same club in finance side of business till couple of months back. i hv toll a list of IT/finance people in these organizations. So please, don't tell me you guys are paid better than business side people. The reason is simple- you provide SUPPORT service.
I personally know people who moved to India to work for hedge funds because they were not getting transfer to business side. so just chill....
I refer to sensex coz i thought you might be arrogant coz indian economy is doing far better than rest of the world. so just wanted to let you know the underpinning implications as well...
Even though you have spent a lot of time outside of India, but you have not developed tolerance for people who may question your intelligence. People from developed country may have some apprehension about you since you are coming from different cultural system so we should try our best to make them understand the values we can add to their society since we are moving into their system, not vis-versa.
I have worked at number of places in new york city in finance domain, primarily dominated by whites. in one instance, we were only two indians when i joined the group. slowly, they started appreciating us and within no time there were 8 indians working in our group. so i just want to say we should be little more tolerant.

just chill and enjoy.

ajay sharma

fakira
- thin ice -
Posts: 63
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2007 4:05 pm

Post by fakira » Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:26 am

deleted
Last edited by fakira on Fri Jan 11, 2008 12:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

avjones
Diamond Member
Posts: 1566
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 5:43 pm
Location: London

Post by avjones » Fri Nov 02, 2007 10:22 am

I've been to India twice - the first time for 8 weeks, the second time for 3 weeks, and had a wonderful time.

Our first visit's timing meant we landed in Delhi 2 days before the Monsoon started. That was a shock to the system!

I love Delhi.
I am not, and cannot, offer legal advice to particular people. I can only discuss general areas of immigration law.

People should always consider obtaining professional advice about their own particular circumstances.

Developer
Newbie
Posts: 39
Joined: Tue Jun 22, 2004 10:31 am

Post by Developer » Fri Nov 02, 2007 1:28 pm

This is one of the reason why you shouldn't come here. you are paid decent in India, though you have to work hard. But you don't have to experience this sh1t. Go on man! enjoy your life there. There are tons of Indians heading back home. Find their reasoning why are they doing it. Don't go to a place which prejudice based on -Ve points. People have forgot to see merits. If Kaff is making point on programmers.. ask Kaff the years of experience difference. I have worked so many low skilled programmers from here and I am sure it would the case with KAff too but because there are few low skilled indians programmer, Kaff has got point to prove. I would like to ask Kaff one thing, have you found a reason why major investment banks are transferring Ops to india. It is because Talent. GS, UBS, Citi, HSBC, CS, etc they are offshoring not only IT but also business... when you are alone think, WHY before you stereotype anyone?

chicku
Junior Member
Posts: 77
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2007 5:27 pm

Post by chicku » Fri Nov 02, 2007 2:56 pm

HSMP_maybe wrote:I'd blame the member who originally started this argument about In-Pak migrants getting low salary. We shall be more careful in a multi ethnic forum like this.
I also think it is Kaff who is spreading filth all around.

unileeds
Junior Member
Posts: 53
Joined: Mon May 07, 2007 7:38 pm

Post by unileeds » Fri Nov 02, 2007 3:22 pm

this is brilliant!!! Right.. there must be half a dozen people including me with some sensible question about the HSMP on the forum. I check the forum every 15 mins to see if anyone is answered them yet, and here is a thread that has skyrocketed in posts. Gentlemen, I salute you. Kindly look at some of my posts and post your opinions and suggestions. I have my application going out next week hopefully!!!
These battles can never be won or lost, history has proven it. Its a brilliant forum and I hate to see senior members wasting their time with posts that wont help anyone, and similarly other members who are just adding fuel to the fire. I am suprised the moderator hasnt stepped.

Cheers!!!

chicku
Junior Member
Posts: 77
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2007 5:27 pm

Post by chicku » Fri Nov 02, 2007 3:38 pm

Yes.. I also agree.

People posting thier opinion on this forum should measure thier words properly. ( Kaff, in perticular ).

manindergill
Junior Member
Posts: 57
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:21 pm
Location: Manchester

Post by manindergill » Sat Nov 03, 2007 12:54 pm

Lets stop facial arguments initiated and discussed in this respectful forum.

HSMP, I advise you to come to this country and try your fortune here. I am in this country for the past 3 years. Native British people are very good from all perspectives (friendly/helpful/co-operative). In an organization, you will be provided with all opportunities to excel. You will easily get in the range of £35K-40K + initially, employers treat Indian IT experience as very valuable.

Some big companies have a huge percentage of Indian IT professionals (Fujitsu,Qualcomm, Orange,BT,Symbian etc.), employers over here are open to hire skills from any country, they are not origin/ethnic specific. I don't know much about the Finance world.

There are some exceptional instances of facial comments which have a hint of jealousy and fear, but please ignore these comments.

fakira
- thin ice -
Posts: 63
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2007 4:05 pm

Post by fakira » Sat Nov 03, 2007 2:04 pm

deleted
Last edited by fakira on Fri Jan 11, 2008 12:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

scm_hsmp
Newly Registered
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2007 1:51 pm

Post by scm_hsmp » Thu Nov 08, 2007 7:04 am

avjones wrote:I've been to India twice - the first time for 8 weeks, the second time for 3 weeks, and had a wonderful time.

Our first visit's timing meant we landed in Delhi 2 days before the Monsoon started. That was a shock to the system!

I love Delhi.
I also love Delhi.

fakira
- thin ice -
Posts: 63
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2007 4:05 pm

Post by fakira » Thu Nov 08, 2007 8:46 am

deleted
Last edited by fakira on Fri Jan 11, 2008 12:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

UKbound
Member
Posts: 183
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2006 3:30 pm
Location: London

Post by UKbound » Fri Nov 09, 2007 8:13 am

It's not a facial issue. There are hard workers in every country. Businesses will (over time) move to resource their work in the cheapest, most capable places. That doesn't mean that there are not places that are similarly capable, it just means that, right now, India has capability, and they are less expensive.

Businesses start outsourcing on the non-core work, and slowly move up the value chain once they get comfortable with the performance of the outsourced employees, and once they get a handle on how to manage work that isn't as directly in their control. That means that I'd expect to see much more business-focused roles going offshore (not just to India), over time.

Note that outsourcing IT does leave behind higher level IT jobs to manage the contracts and work that has been moved offshore. In fact, within the US, (at least in the most recent article I could find), IT jobs are actually at a record high. This even after huge amounts of programming and IT work has been moved overseas (mostly to India, but also to Ireland, Canada, Phillipines, China, etc.).

When I worked in Japan, they outsourced most of their work to Dalian, China. This is for the same reasons, capable labor and cheaper costs. Why Dalian? Similar characters in the language and the quality was better than other places. My point is, there are capable individuals in every location, I don't think it makes sense to argue about who is better. You can find competent people in every country.

More IT jobs in the US - http://www.informationweek.com/showArti ... =186500843

prem12
Member
Posts: 145
Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2007 4:57 pm

Post by prem12 » Wed Nov 21, 2007 8:14 pm

Last edited by prem12 on Wed Mar 02, 2011 8:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

gordon
Senior Member
Posts: 567
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 3:48 pm

Post by gordon » Wed Nov 21, 2007 8:57 pm

Good on the Indians in Silicon Valley. But if such migrants are, as you indicated earlier, representative of the Indian diaspora round the globe, then why have their counterparts who migrated, for instance, to New York or the UK not done as well as they have done in Silicon Valley ? I have seen no evidence that proves that Indian migrants systematically, across time and space, outperform all other groups, as you have suggested.

prem12
Member
Posts: 145
Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2007 4:57 pm

Post by prem12 » Wed Nov 21, 2007 9:28 pm

Now that you have admitted this, in case if I come accross similar news related to the unhealthy scepticism of yours, I will post it.

This news was there is todays newspaper and so I posted it.
________
Hot box vaporizer
Last edited by prem12 on Wed Mar 02, 2011 8:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Locked
cron