Immigrationboards.com: Immigration, work visa and work permit discussion board

Welcome to immigrationboards.com!

Login Register Do not show

Is it a contradiction?

Only for UK Tier 4 (Student) points system
Tier 4

Moderators: Casa, push, JAJ, ca.funke, Amber, Zimba, vinny, Obie, EUsmileWEallsmile, batleykhan, geriatrix, John, ChetanOjha, archigabe

Post Reply
fsdpk
Newbie
Posts: 31
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:47 pm
Pakistan

Is it a contradiction?

Post by fsdpk » Sun Sep 16, 2018 3:48 pm

Hi All,

Kindly help me clarify with this; I have recently submitted my tier 4 visa application and in the Accommodation section of the application I mentioned that I will arrange my accommodation once I am in the UK. But, later on I booked a hotel for two days as a temporary accommodation and attached a printout of the booking confirmation. I did that after submitting my online application after which no amendments are allowed. So, I answered NO for the question "Have you arranged for accommodation...".

Could it be considered a contradiction by the visa officer, or I am really overthinking? Help from people with similar situations who successfully granted visa would be highly appreciated.

Thank you very much.

sah10406
Diamond Member
Posts: 1816
Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 10:09 am

Re: Is it a contradiction?

Post by sah10406 » Sun Sep 16, 2018 4:14 pm

fsdpk wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 3:48 pm
Could it be considered a contradiction by the visa officer, or I am really overthinking?
You are really overthinking. The proof of accommodation was not required and will probably not even be looked at.
I do not give immigration advice, just refer to Immigration Rules, guidance, other online content and to your sponsor to help you answer your question.

fsdpk
Newbie
Posts: 31
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:47 pm
Pakistan

Re: Is it a contradiction?

Post by fsdpk » Sun Sep 16, 2018 4:50 pm

sah10406 wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 4:14 pm

You are really overthinking. The proof of accommodation was not required and will probably not even be looked at.
Thanks for your response.

Similarly, I have provided documentation (e.g. sale deed of a property I sold as an evidence of source of funds, and ownership documents along with translation and original of rent agreement as I receive rent from the house) to demonstrate how my family i.e. spouse and kids will be financially survive in my home country as they are not going with me to the UK.

However, the translations do not meet the strict UKVI requirements, i.e. they are merely bear the notary public stamps and "attested" stamps.

I submitted this documentation as additional supporting evidence which is not usually requested by the UKVI.

How do you see this, is it a good practice or it should not be included unless asked for? I hope your answers will help future applicants in a similar condition.

Thanks a lot.

sah10406
Diamond Member
Posts: 1816
Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 10:09 am

Re: Is it a contradiction?

Post by sah10406 » Sun Sep 16, 2018 5:00 pm

fsdpk wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 4:50 pm
Similarly, I have provided documentation (e.g. sale deed of a property I sold as an evidence of source of funds, and ownership documents along with translation and original of rent agreement as I receive rent from the house) to demonstrate how my family i.e. spouse and kids will be financially survive in my home country as they are not going with me to the UK.
The documents you need to provide with your application are listed on the cover sheet for the application. I don't understand why you have included all these extra documents. They have nothing to do with proving your eligibility for a Tier 4 visa.
I do not give immigration advice, just refer to Immigration Rules, guidance, other online content and to your sponsor to help you answer your question.

fsdpk
Newbie
Posts: 31
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:47 pm
Pakistan

Re: Is it a contradiction?

Post by fsdpk » Sun Sep 16, 2018 5:15 pm

sah10406 wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 5:00 pm
fsdpk wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 4:50 pm
Similarly, I have provided documentation (e.g. sale deed of a property I sold as an evidence of source of funds, and ownership documents along with translation and original of rent agreement as I receive rent from the house) to demonstrate how my family i.e. spouse and kids will be financially survive in my home country as they are not going with me to the UK.
The documents you need to provide with your application are listed on the cover sheet for the application. I don't understand why you have included all these extra documents. They have nothing to do with proving your eligibility for a Tier 4 visa.
You are absolutely right that the mandatory docs are the only ones that need to be supplied, however there was a reason to be so cautious about providing as many docs as possible. Because, despite the fact that I have a really good and clean travel history of UK (both visit visas and a tier 4 visa recently in 2013), I was refused entry clearance for a visit visa in 2016 for insignificant reasons.

Secondly, in the online application form, it is asked about the people who are financially dependent on the applicant, hence I thought it would be good to include some relevant documents. Believe me, I was so confused about whether to submit such supplementary proofs, I eventually decided to supply as many of them as I could.

I think this documentation will not harm my application in any way? What is your opinion? are there any downsides to providing extra paperwork?

Again really thankful for your answers.

sah10406
Diamond Member
Posts: 1816
Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 10:09 am

Re: Is it a contradiction?

Post by sah10406 » Sun Sep 16, 2018 5:32 pm

fsdpk wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 5:15 pm
I think this documentation will not harm my application in any way? What is your opinion? are there any downsides to providing extra paperwork?
Mostly I would be worried it delays the processing, but also it could trigger a heavy hand with credibility checks.

An ECO may well move a very fat file towards the bottom of the pile. I know I would!

More pertinently, any document submitted with an application needs to be verified for authenticity whether it is relevant or not. If any document is not genuine, or is suspected to be not genuine, it could cause a refusal, despite being irrelevant to what the ECO is actually evaluating.

An application that appears to have taken an "everything but the Spam sink approach" may cause the ECO to suspect the applicant is trying to use distraction from weaknesses in the relevant evidence.

Demonstrating that you are not familiar with the actual requirements of the category of visa you are applying for is never a "good look".

All of the above could potentially be triggers for the ECO to question the student's credibility, and that is a value judgment, not measured against specific criteria in the rules.
I do not give immigration advice, just refer to Immigration Rules, guidance, other online content and to your sponsor to help you answer your question.

fsdpk
Newbie
Posts: 31
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:47 pm
Pakistan

Re: Is it a contradiction?

Post by fsdpk » Sun Sep 16, 2018 6:11 pm

sah10406 wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 5:32 pm
fsdpk wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 5:15 pm
I think this documentation will not harm my application in any way? What is your opinion? are there any downsides to providing extra paperwork?
Mostly I would be worried it delays the processing, but also it could trigger a heavy hand with credibility checks.

An ECO may well move a very fat file towards the bottom of the pile. I know I would!

More pertinently, any document submitted with an application needs to be verified for authenticity whether it is relevant or not. If any document is not genuine, or is suspected to be not genuine, it could cause a refusal, despite being irrelevant to what the ECO is actually evaluating.

An application that appears to have taken an "everything but the Spam sink approach" may cause the ECO to suspect the applicant is trying to use distraction from weaknesses in the relevant evidence.

Demonstrating that you are not familiar with the actual requirements of the category of visa you are applying for is never a "good look".

All of the above could potentially be triggers for the ECO to question the student's credibility, and that is a value judgment, not measured against specific criteria in the rules.
I agree to your points regarding potential problems that may arise due to heavy documentation. Though, in my case I have just submitted four additional documents, I hope that they will work in my favor. Now let's see what happens when I receive the outcome of the application.

I hope my previous postgraduate study in the UK and the PhD program I am going to pursue will play favorable role in the success of my application. I really did not consider the points you have just listed above. Now I can't do anything because I have submitted them, I think future applicants will benefit from your advice which is really useful.

My application received at Sheffield visa office on 8 September, it's been total 8 days now (including weekend).

I have tried my best to make my application as credible and complete as I could, though according to the people like you who understand immigration very well, I have not helped myself by submitting more docs which were not required.

What are the positive aspects you can point out in my situation? Do you think it may result in a straightaway refusal, a second credibility interview, or anything else?

I understand that being worried about what has happened is not helpful in anyway, but what can be done next is really useful.

Here I would like to refer to your statement "additional documents e.g. accommodation proof may not even be looked at". I mean if my supplied docs are not relevant will the VO not ignore them. I understand you have advised that this more about "value judgement" not about published rules and regulation.

Highly appreciate your input and time.

fsdpk
Newbie
Posts: 31
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:47 pm
Pakistan

Re: Is it a contradiction?

Post by fsdpk » Mon Sep 17, 2018 2:44 am

The personal and financial circumstances of the applicant and
any dependant
Examples include:
• the economic circumstances of the applicant and any dependant in their region
in their home country
• whether the applicant has a credible source of funds to meet course fees, and
living costs for themselves and any dependants for the duration of the course in
the UK,in light of the fact that they may have limited or no ability to work in the
UK
• how the applicant was able to acquire the necessary funds for course fees, as
well as accommodation in a UK city and living expenses in the UK for
themselves and any dependant
• the distance between the applicant’s place of study and their proposed
accommodation in the UK
• the average monthly expenditure for the applicant and any dependant in the UK
• the applicant’s personal circumstances, where these might make it difficult to
complete a course of study

The above can be found on the page 102 of the following tier 4 document:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... .0-EXT.PDF

sah10406
Diamond Member
Posts: 1816
Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 10:09 am

Re: Is it a contradiction?

Post by sah10406 » Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:55 am

fsdpk wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 6:11 pm
What are the positive aspects you can point out in my situation? Do you think it may result in a straightaway refusal, a second credibility interview, or anything else?

I understand that being worried about what has happened is not helpful in anyway, but what can be done next is really useful.

Here I would like to refer to your statement "additional documents e.g. accommodation proof may not even be looked at". I mean if my supplied docs are not relevant will the VO not ignore them. I understand you have advised that this more about "value judgement" not about published rules and regulation.
I don't think it is useful (or possible, or legal) for me to offer one to one advice on your specific application, especially as you have already submitted it.
I do not give immigration advice, just refer to Immigration Rules, guidance, other online content and to your sponsor to help you answer your question.

fsdpk
Newbie
Posts: 31
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:47 pm
Pakistan

Re: Is it a contradiction?

Post by fsdpk » Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:05 am

sah10406 wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:55 am
fsdpk wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 6:11 pm
What are the positive aspects you can point out in my situation? Do you think it may result in a straightaway refusal, a second credibility interview, or anything else?

I understand that being worried about what has happened is not helpful in anyway, but what can be done next is really useful.

Here I would like to refer to your statement "additional documents e.g. accommodation proof may not even be looked at". I mean if my supplied docs are not relevant will the VO not ignore them. I understand you have advised that this more about "value judgement" not about published rules and regulation.
I don't think it is useful (or possible, or legal) for me to offer one to one advice on your specific application, especially as you have already submitted it.
OK, and what are your your views on this:

The personal and financial circumstances of the applicant and
any dependant
Examples include:
• the economic circumstances of the applicant and any dependant in their region
in their home country
• whether the applicant has a credible source of funds to meet course fees, and
living costs for themselves and any dependants for the duration of the course in
the UK,in light of the fact that they may have limited or no ability to work in the
UK
• how the applicant was able to acquire the necessary funds for course fees, as
well as accommodation in a UK city and living expenses in the UK for
themselves and any dependant
• the distance between the applicant’s place of study and their proposed
accommodation in the UK
• the average monthly expenditure for the applicant and any dependant in the UK
• the applicant’s personal circumstances, where these might make it difficult to
complete a course of study

?

sah10406
Diamond Member
Posts: 1816
Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 10:09 am

Re: Is it a contradiction?

Post by sah10406 » Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:13 am

fsdpk wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:05 am
OK, and what are your your views on this:
...
I'm not sure what you mean by "my views". They are examples of things an ECO might possibly want to ask a specific applicant about at a credibility interview. I think they are reasonable questions.
I do not give immigration advice, just refer to Immigration Rules, guidance, other online content and to your sponsor to help you answer your question.

fsdpk
Newbie
Posts: 31
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:47 pm
Pakistan

Re: Is it a contradiction?

Post by fsdpk » Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:38 am

sah10406 wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:13 am
fsdpk wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:05 am
OK, and what are your your views on this:
...
I'm not sure what you mean by "my views". They are examples of things an ECO might possibly want to ask a specific applicant about at a credibility interview. I think they are reasonable questions.
Well, as you pointed out that providing additional documents e.g. dependents financial circumstances in home country etc. can be perceived by VO as distractions from main/core aspects/considerations of the application.

As in the text a copied from UKVI official documents, VOs are advised to take into account the credibility of the funds, personal and financial situation of any dependents in homeland etc.

My argument, in the light of above information, is that is it not a good idea to provide them such information upfront before they actually raise the question and request it which may potentially delay the application process. In other words, providing relevant info in advance should not be viewed as a negative practice.

So, I just wanted to know what you think about this.

sah10406
Diamond Member
Posts: 1816
Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 10:09 am

Re: Is it a contradiction?

Post by sah10406 » Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:32 pm

fsdpk wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:38 am
My argument, in the light of above information, is that is it not a good idea to provide them such information upfront before they actually raise the question and request it which may potentially delay the application process. In other words, providing relevant info in advance should not be viewed as a negative practice.

So, I just wanted to know what you think about this.
I disagree.

As well as my concerns about individual applications, more generally I worry about the future expectations such practice could raise in ECOs. And if everyone front-loaded their application with additional evidence to support (if requested) any answer they may possibly and theoretically be asked at a credibility interview, but may well not be, the system would become so unwieldy and subjective.

Less is more.
I do not give immigration advice, just refer to Immigration Rules, guidance, other online content and to your sponsor to help you answer your question.

fsdpk
Newbie
Posts: 31
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:47 pm
Pakistan

Re: Is it a contradiction?

Post by fsdpk » Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:49 pm

sah10406 wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:32 pm

I disagree.

As well as my concerns about individual applications, more generally I worry about the future expectations such practice could raise in ECOs. And if everyone front-loaded their application with additional evidence to support (if requested) any answer they may possibly and theoretically be asked at a credibility interview, but may well not be, the system would become so unwieldy and subjective.

Less is more.
The system is not entirely objective and there are so many facets to an application that being/staying objective becomes almost impossible, even sometimes subjectivity becomes so dominant in the decision making that no objective assessment takes place at all.

While I respect your opinion, I am not completely convinced by your arguments.

sah10406
Diamond Member
Posts: 1816
Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 10:09 am

Re: Is it a contradiction?

Post by sah10406 » Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:56 pm

fsdpk wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:49 pm
The system is not entirely objective and there are so many facets to an application that being/staying objective becomes almost impossible, even sometimes subjectivity becomes so dominant in the decision making that no objective assessment takes place at all.
As you probably expect, I strongly disagree. I never said the visa application system was entirely objective, but it is mostly so, except for credibility. My hope it that it stays that way.

Almost all the other subjective or value judgements in the mix are outsourced to the Tier 4 sponsor, which is quite right.
I do not give immigration advice, just refer to Immigration Rules, guidance, other online content and to your sponsor to help you answer your question.

fsdpk
Newbie
Posts: 31
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:47 pm
Pakistan

Re: Is it a contradiction?

Post by fsdpk » Mon Sep 17, 2018 3:16 pm

sah10406 wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:56 pm

As you probably expect, I strongly disagree. I never said the visa application system was entirely objective, but it is mostly so, except for credibility. My hope it that it stays that way.

Almost all the other subjective or value judgments in the mix are outsourced to the Tier 4 sponsor, which is quite right.
Yes, I agree! as the most appropriate entity/authority is the sponsor because they have relevant expertise and knowledge to determine the suitability of the applicant.

Post Reply