German Embassy Dublin - Non EU spouse - Schengen Visa

[catch_hunter]

I am an Irish citizen (EU Passport holder). My wife is an Indian (Non-EU). We live together in Dublin, Ireland.

My wife applied for Schengen visa at the German Embassy, Dublin.

She has been informed at the visa counter that she also needs to provide following documents:
1. Flight ticket booking (not a confirmed ticket but an itenerary)
2. A utility bill proof (or a similar document) that my wife and I live together in Dublin.

A few months back I asked them a question over email about the documents that a Non-EU (Indian) wife of an Irish (EU Passport holder) citizen require and to this they replied following:

=====================
Dear ZZZZZZ
yes, your wife has to make an application for a Schengen Short Stay visa at our Embassy. For further information on the process, please have a look at

http://www.dublin.diplo.de/Vertretung/d ... _Visa.html

You do not have to bring the flight tickets and the hotel booking, but the passports, the residence permits for Ireland, your Irish passport and the marriage certificate.

Please bring a printout of this email to your appointment when booked.

Yours sincerely
XXXXXX
=====================

As per this email my wife carried her passport, her GNIB card, my passport and our marriage certificate.

I am really disappointed to find that they need extra documents even though my wife carried with her the print out of that email, still the staff at the front office counter mentioned that my wife needs to provide extra documents.

I have now written to them giving reference to that email and also attaching a letter from European Union Commission sent out to me which clearly details the documents that a Non-EU wife of an Irish (EU) citizen requires.

I am looking forward to your help in this matter.

[catch_hunter]

I got following reply from the German Embassy just now:

===================
Dear Mr ZZZZZZ,

I do recall on my last email sent. Your wife does not enjoy the right of free movement within the European member states herself but only together with you. She can travel together with you and hence you are an EU-citizen, should not be restricted in joining you. In order to have the fact proven that she is joining you on a trip, we would of course need travel plans, i.e. itineraries of intended flights or hotel reservations (not bookings) to evaluate the purpose of your travel. You did not submit any of this information today. Also the fact, that you wrote the same email to every single Schengen Embassy in Dublin makes the purpose of travelling only to Germany doubtful. If you want to clarify that matter, you are very welcome to present any additional information possible.

Yours sincerely
XXXXXX
===================

[catch_hunter]

Further to this, German embassy asked me to submit itinerary of flight details and hotel reservation. They said that they need to see evidence that I, an Irish citizen (EU passport holder), is traveling with the Non-EU citizen. I am really surprised to see this since as per the EU law I don't need to provide any return flight or hotel accommodation details.

Please let me know if you have any suggestions

[icexxik]

Further to this, German embassy asked me to submit itinerary of flight details and hotel reservation. They said that they need to see evidence that I, an Irish citizen (EU passport holder), is traveling with the Non-EU citizen. I am really surprised to see this since as per the EU law I don't need to provide any return flight or hotel accommodation details.

Please let me know if you have any suggestions

It is my understanding that some embassies ask for this in order to insure that you are traveling to their country, not some other Schengen state. They also limit visas to the ticket dates. Try to find out which embassy doesn't ask for it and apply there. It's more likely that you'll receive a multiple entry visa with an embassy that doesn't ask for tickets.
German embassy is usually the most strict, check out the French and Netherlands.

Unlike non family member route, which needs to have confirmed/paid for tickets and reservations, you just need to provide a printout itinerary and provisional booking for the hotel (booking.com or smtn).

[catch_hunter]

Thanks for your repsonse icexxik. It is quite informative; however, I understand that though I just need to provide a print out of the ticket itinerary but flight ticket prices go up very fast and if I provide a flight itinerary for a specific date and book the flight after a week (that's when I will have the visa in hand for that specific date) the ticket price could have shooted up. Hence, ticket itinerary to me has no meaning except that book the flights before you provide the flight itinerary to the embassy. I guess embassies use the word "itinerary" just to save themselves from the wordings of the regulation. I understand Aerlingus (and few other airlines) does allow to reserve the seats for a very minimal fee but that is either for 24hrs or 48hrs maximum duration and does not help either.

BTW, today my wife received the passport by post (along with the visa pasted on it). She has gotten double entry visa for 66 days. However the embassy issued this only when I provided the ticket, the hotel details, and the travel insurance to them.

I am wondering is complaining to the European Union (and the EU Commission) and SOLVIT the only way for this. I am asking this because I don't think they come for any help except a 2 page PDF document condemning the Embassies but of no real help to us. This has happeend to me twice in past and am again looking forward to complain once again. I guess by complaining we are just increasing the number of complaints to the EU commission with a hope that when the complaint count reaches a certain level that they will consider all our pain and make the regulation more friendly (by introducing more words!).

[acme4242]

I wish I could add something positive to this, but I can't

I tried this
http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewto ... highlight=

My main point is, if the visa is issued on the condition
that an EU citizen accompanied their spouse, it should be the task
for Border Guard to verify it at entry. Not for the Embassy to create
an unnecessary bureaucratic ordeal, which also makes no sense in the age
of disposable cheap e-tickets, and refundable hotel bookings.

To require prior tickets, hotel bookings etc before visa is issued is pointless.
It proves nothing, and is an unnecessary barrier to EU citizens.

I failed to get anyone to accept my point, but I still think I am right.
Lets hope you have better luck getting it across, please let us know how
you get on, try to fight this stupid injustice, if not for you, for the next guy.

[ca.funke]

I am an Irish citizen (EU Passport holder). My wife is an Indian (Non-EU). We live together in Dublin, Ireland.

Why did you even apply for a visa?

As long as you travel together, you can just go without visa:
http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=95372

Rgds,
Christian

[acme4242]

hello Christian,

Yes, you are correct about our rights in law
but these rights are not reflected in airline practical travel.

TIMATIC still says
http://www.timaticweb.com/cgi-bin/tim_w ... user=GFB2C

Visa required, except for Those, irrespective of nationality,
for a max. stay of 90 days, holding "family member" residence
permit issued by Ireland (Rep.) to a family member of an EEA
nationa or national of Switzerland, provided
travelling with or travelling to join the EEA national or
national of Switzerland.

Spouse of Irish citizens are not given a 4EUfam card referred in TIMATIC
Last year, I again raised this with the guys who write TIMATIC. I got no reply.

Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2012 4:36 PM
To: TIMATIC Editing (INDP)
Subject: Re: [Z:2828] Timatic data for EU family members.


Dear Paul,
Its been almost 2 years now, and the Timatic data still does not reflect and support the Lawful right of EU
citizens family members to obtain visas at port of entry, instead of the Timatic data which says they must
have a visa before travel or have a "EU family member" residence card issued under Art 10, 2004/38/EC

The current information provided in Timatic will, and does cause wrongful denied boarding, and
removes EU citizens rights, i.e. to have their family members be issued with port visas.

Can you please send me the correspondence from the EU commission on this matter.

Looking forward to your reply,

What am I doing wrong ? all my requests for my lawful rights are ignored at each turn.
Every layer of bureaucracy cuts lawful rights.

Law says
Don't need a visa,
Practice
do need a visa

Law says
to get visa, don't need to provide airline tickets
Practice
need to provide airline tickets and hotel bookings

And in both these cases, the EU Commission is involved
they direct TIMATIC and the EU Embassies.

[catch_hunter]

I sent following email to EU commission and to Europe Advice.

===============================================
Dear Sir / Madam,

I am an Irish citizen (EU) and my wife is an Indian citizen (Non-EU). My wife and I live together in Dublin, Ireland.



We, together as a couple, wanted to go to Germany this January 2013. So, I have had enquired earlier through email to Germany Embassy, Dublin, about the document requirements for Germany Embassy - Schengen Visa for my wife (Non EU spouse of an Irish citizen) and the reply came with following details:


===============================
Email from German Embassy Dublin:



yes, your wife has to make an application for a Schengen Short Stay visa at our Embassy. For further information on the process, please have a look at



http://www.dublin.diplo.de/Vertretung/d ... _Visa.html



You do not have to bring the flight tickets and the hotel booking, but the passports, the residence permits for Ireland, your Irish passport and the marriage certificate.



Please bring a printout of this email to your appointment when booked.


=================================


Based on the above information that German Embassy official provided, my wife carried those documents and a copy of the above email and applied for the Schengen visa at German Embassy, Dublin.We were shocked to find that my wife was asked to provide extra documents which contradicted the information provided in above email. The additional documents they asked for were:

Air ticket – travel itinerary (on both names)
Hotel reservation (on both names)
Travel insurance for my wife


In addition when my wife submitted her application she was forced to sign on a paper that she will provide the above documents failing which her visa application will be rejected. I was simply left aghast by such an inhuman treatment to my wife and felt really disappointed.



When I contacted German Embassy later on through email I got following information from them:


====================
Email from German Embassy Dublin:



I do recall on my last email sent. Your wife does not enjoy the right of free movement within the European member states herself but only together with you. She can travel together with you and hence you are an EU-citizen, should not be restricted in joining you. In order to have the fact proven that she is joining you on a trip, we would of course need travel plans, i.e. itineraries of intended flights or hotel reservations (not bookings) to evaluate the purpose of your travel. You did not submit any of this information today. Also the fact, that you wrote the same email to every single Schengen Embassy in Dublin makes the purpose of travelling only to Germany doubtful.

If you want to clarify that matter, you are very welcome to present any additional information possible.

=================================





First of all I was really disappointed to find that Germany Embassy was tracking my emails which I sent to other Schengen Embassies in Dublin, Yes, I did send emails to other Schengen embassies as we were not sure that time where we will go and our final decision was based on air ticket prices, hotel cost, visa procedure time frame etc. But I think questioning me about my emails and my intention was really crude and I felt really bad for that. In addition they asked me to provide travel air-ticket itineraries and hotel reservations. I understand they never wanted confirmed air ticket bookings but then if I block my air tickets I can do that for maximum 48 hours and after that I either need to confirm that ticket or cancel that blocking. If I just wait till the visa arrives for my wife, then it could be 10 days from then and by that time the air-ticket prices easily shoots up to double – triple the original price. So, it does not make sense to book the tickets after 10 days as prices would have gone very high and hence I actually end up booking the tickets before the visa application itself. So, don’t you think that by asking for ticket itineraries and hotel reservations, German Embassy was actually putting barriers to me and my wife’s right of free movement together in European Union. In addition, providing false information to me first and then forcing my wife to sign a document at Embassy that in case she does not provide ticket itineraries, hotel reservations and travel insurance that her visa application will be rejected, later on, really puts a question mark on Germany Embassies communication practises and their ethical values.



As per the EU law, Embassies of EU countries can not ask for a travel ticket from my wife (Non EU wife of Irish citizen), but as per practise, when my wife applies for the visa, she is asked to provide evidence that we both are travelling together and for them the evidence to this is travel itinerary and hotel reservations. I want to ask is there any other way that I can prove that we are travelling together because I have provided a written letter to them mentioning that we are travelling together along with my original Irish passport (and a copy of that) and marriage certificate (and a copy of that); however they have not considered this as an evidence.



I am looking forward to your view and a solution to this problem, which I have to face every time I and my wife travel to any European Union country. I hope you will come back with a practical solution to this problem and going forward I will not face such problems.



Thanks in advance.

[catch_hunter]

I got following response from Europe Advice. I don't think this response is of any use as they don't have any solution and have referred me to SOLVIT.

================================
Dear ZZZZZ,
Thank you for your enquiry to the Your Europe Advice service.

You are correct. If your wife is travelling with or to join you in Germany, she will require a visa as she does not hold a residence card from Ireland granted under Article 10 of Directive 2004/38/EC. This visa should be granted to her without charge or formality or delay. She is required only to present her passport and your marriage certificate for the purpose of obtaining the visa. This is confirmed in a Communication from the Commission dated July 2009. You can access a copy of the Communication on the following website: http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex ... FIN:EN:PDF

The visa can only be refused if she constitutes a threat to public policy, public security or public health.

To try to resolve the current impasse, I would recommend that you refer this matter to SOLVIT in Ireland which is an EU network established to resolve problems caused by misapplication of EU law by public administrations. The website address for SOLVIT is www.ec.europa.eu/solvit

On this site, you can find further details of the
service together with contact details for the Irish SOLVIT representatives.

I trust that this information is of assistance to you. Should you have any further queries in relation to your rights in the EU, please do not hesitate to revert to the Your Europe Advice service - http://europa.eu/youreurope/advice/enquiry_en.htm

Yours sincerely,
Your Europe Advice

[catch_hunter]

Finally I got a response from SOLVIT on German Embassy - it is of no use.

=========================
Dear Mr ZZZZZZ,

The German SOLVIT Centre have come back to me regarding your complaint.

Having contacted the Embassy they inform us that the right to be issued with an entry visa is derived from the family link with an EU citizen and the procedure of getting an entry visa has to conform with Regulation (EC) No 539/2001 or, where appropriate, with national law as specified in Article 5 (2) Directive 2004/38/EC.

Bearing this in mind, the Embassy explain that applicants have to prove identity, the family link and that they are joining the EU family member on the trip. The EU Directive does not grant rights for the non-EU family member to travel alone so the Embassy asked for travel plans and the purpose of the travel to determine whether the application should be considered under the Directive. The Embassy inform the German SOLVIT Centre that they did not request flight or hotel bookings, only itineraries of intended flights or hotel reservations.

Regarding the behaviour of the Embassy in tracking your wife's application, as Ireland is not part of Schengen I asked the German SOLVIT Centre for an explanation on this point. They have explained that Schengen-cooperation is based on the ground that internal borders don’t exist and all States only have one external border. So you only have one control and can travel with one Schengen visa to all Schengen Member States. However, as a security precaution Schengen-coordination, allows the Member States to communicate with each other where they have doubts about an application. This cooperation is referred to in the European Visa Code Regulation 810/2009.

They explain that in your specific case some embassies had doubts about the information provided (I understand a document from SOLVIT Belgium and a refusal by the Britain embassy) and therefore the intention of the application and asked the other embassies if they had received similar correspondence. As mentioned above, this information exchange between embassies is covered by the principle of cooperation by all Schengen Member States.

As the right to freedom of movement depends on the family link and that the non-EU family member will accompany or join the European citizen, the German SOLVIT Centre believe that the embassy acted in line with EU rules.

I hope this clarifies the situation and why the German Embassy were aware of your other visa enquiries.

Kind Regards
XXXXXX

Irish SOLVIT Centre

[acme4242]

reply to them, with the following

Thank you for your answer ,
But the EU Commission says the opposite

http://ec.europa.eu/justice/policies/ci ... _ec_en.pdf

Documents that
can be required
when applying
for the visa

The right of entry of your third country family members is derived
from their family ties with you, a Union citizen. All the Member
State consular officials can ask for is their passport and a
document establishing their family ties with you, such as
marriage or birth certificate and proof of dependence, where
applicable. Your family members cannot be asked to present
documents such as travel tickets, employment certificate, pay slips,
bank statements, proof of accommodation and means of
subsistence or a medical certificate.

Also If the Embassy want to ask the question, will you accompany or join
the EU citizens in Germany, then the Embassy should ask that question,
not ask for itineraries of intended flights or hotel reservations that can change daily.

[catch_hunter]

Thanks for your response acme4242. I wrote following email to them earlier. Till now I have not gotten any response, however as soon as I do I will update here.

====================
Dear [XXXXXX],

Thanks for your email and the details you provided; however I am disappointed with the response because it is neither clear as it does not provide facts nor it answered all the questions that I have had raised with you.



I want to know clear answers to these questions so that my wife and I don’t face the same problem again when we travel together to any Schengen country.



1. In addition to the things that you have answered, my wife was asked to provide Travel Insurance. There is no explanation in your email why that was asked for?
2. I would like to know the exact definition of “itineraries of intended flights”, so that I am clear what to provide. Is it

i) Just a letter with travel dates and airline mentioned and signed by me; or

ii) Do I have to provide a print out from the airline website with both of our names and the dates shown there?

iii) Anything else?

3. What is the definition of “itineraries of hotel reservations”?

i) Does it mean a letter where I mention the accommodation dates and just sign on the letter; or

ii) Does it mean a letter with the hotel name and the dates mentioned and signed by me; or

iii) Do I need to provide a print out from the hotel website with both names and dates shown there in

iv) Anything else?



Please check the attached email from European Commission where none of the above items are mentioned.

As I have not gotten a clear answer so far from any source, I am looking forward to your response to fill these information gaps.


Thanks,
[ZZZZZZ]

====================

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

@Catchhunter, regarding your latest post, is that addressed to the German embassy or Solvit? Just curious.

[catch_hunter]

@Catchhunter, regarding your latest post, is that addressed to the German embassy or Solvit? Just curious.

I have replied to SOLVIT Ireland with that response.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

It would be worth asking the Germans the same question if you haven't done so. It is a very good question indeed.