EEA Citizen with non-EEA Family Member, travelling to Spain.

szabcsee · Post by **szabcsee** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:45 am

Dear Forum Members,

I'm looking for some information, hopefully in the right place. Two days ago visited Barcelona with my wife who is Venezuelan. I'm Hungarian and we are living in the UK. She has her (UK)FMRS resident stamp in her passport and as far as we know she can enter any EU countries as a turist without visas for 3 months. At the border the Imm. Officer for this sentence answered with a "You Think!!!" Finally she said she will let her in after asking many questions and being dead rude, but she said my wife needs something (could not figure out what, she basically ignored me and did not want to speak english at all, and my wife said she said some kind of request blablabla... no clue). My question is, does the rules changed and Venezuelans need special something to enter Spain, can my wife enter Spain with me with her passport only or under some kind of EU Regulations (as I'm being EU Citizen), does the British Residence Stamp has any effect on this when we travel abroad? We have been to spain, france, Hungary many times without any problem with her passport. What can we do if we want to live in Spain? Where can i get information about Residency for Non-EEA family member of EEA citizen in Spain?

Thank you for your time and help.

Kind Regards,

szabcsee

Tobbe · Post by **Tobbe** » Fri Dec 14, 2007 5:14 pm

Welcome to Spainâ€¦ the only place Iâ€™ve been to where nobody at the passport control speaks English

Your wife is allowed to enter on the basis that she is married to you however they can still ask for a visa (which they must issue free of charge and at the border). They want you to get the visa from an embassy before you travel but they canâ€™t demand it. You must be able to prove that you are married though so itâ€™s generally a good idea to bring your marriage certificate when travelling.

I have been travelling to a few countries in Europe with my Bolivian wife without any problems but we got denied entry in Spain and got deported a few months back. They clearly donâ€™t like South Americans and doesnâ€™t really bother to educate their border guards so I recommend getting a free visa at the embassy in London before travelling there.

You can live and work in Spain, have a look at article 7 and 8 in the Spanish implementation of directive 2004/38/EC here:

Real Decreto 240/2007
Spanish: http://sid.usal.es/idocs/F3/LYN10709/3-10709.pdf
English: http://www.ukgovabusesexpats.co.uk/Arti ... 0.2007.htm

Directive/2004/38/EC · Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Fri Dec 14, 2007 8:40 pm

Tobbe wrote:I have been travelling to a few countries in Europe with my Bolivian wife without any problems but we got denied entry in Spain and got deported a few months back.

Which countries have you visited without a visa in the EU? What documentation were you required to provide at the border and how did it go?

Directive/2004/38/EC · Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Fri Dec 14, 2007 8:49 pm

szabcsee wrote:I'm looking for some information, hopefully in the right place. Two days ago visited Barcelona with my wife who is Venezuelan. I'm Hungarian and we are living in the UK. She has her (UK)FMRS resident stamp in her passport and as far as we know she can enter any EU countries as a turist without visas for 3 months. At the border the Imm. Officer for this sentence answered with a "You Think!!!" Finally she said she will let her in after asking many questions and being dead rude, but she said my wife needs something (could not figure out what, she basically ignored me and did not want to speak english at all, and my wife said she said some kind of request blablabla... no clue). My question is, does the rules changed and Venezuelans need special something to enter Spain, can my wife enter Spain with me with her passport only or under some kind of EU Regulations (as I'm being EU Citizen), does the British Residence Stamp has any effect on this when we travel abroad? We have been to spain, france, Hungary many times without any problem with her passport. What can we do if we want to live in Spain? Where can i get information about Residency for Non-EEA family member of EEA citizen in Spain?

They are being rude. Your wife would not need a visa even if she was not your wife. And since she is your wife and is travelling with you, she has the same right of free movement as you do. They can not refuse her entry except in a few very exceptional circumstances. You should carry a copy of your marriage certificate to prove her relationship to you.

Tobbe · Post by **Tobbe** » Sat Dec 15, 2007 12:10 am

I have been to France,Denmark, Germany and Sweden (Sweden being my home country and they still said the UK EEA resident card is valid there). We had our marriage certificate with us. We appealed in national court or at least we think we did

The lawyer provided to us wasn't to willing to do anything other then trying to get a signature on the paper work and it's extremely hard to get hold of her.

I know the reason under which we can get refused entry and it is not one of thoose. It was due to not having a visa and not holding enough cash.

Directive/2004/38/EC · Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Tue Dec 18, 2007 5:38 am

Tobbe wrote:I have been to France,Denmark, Germany and Sweden (Sweden being my home country and they still said the UK EEA resident card is valid there). We had our marriage certificate with us. We appealed in national court or at least we think we did :) The lawyer provided to us wasn't to willing to do anything other then trying to get a signature on the paper work and it's extremely hard to get hold of her.

I know the reason under which we can get refused entry and it is not one of thoose. It was due to not having a visa and not holding enough cash.

So am I correct in understanding that you did not have a Schengen visa but you had no problems entering France, Denmark, Germany and Sweden by showing your wife's UK issued Residence Card. This is good news! Have you had any problems boarding flights from the UK without having the Schengen visa?

But Spain refused your wife entry. Were you intending to stay for less than 3 months in Spain? Were you carrying your marriage certificate? If so and they said you did not have enough money, then they were acting very illegally!

Tobbe · Post by **Tobbe** » Tue Dec 18, 2007 1:35 pm

That's correct, no problem in thoose countries. She did not have any Schengen visa and didn't get any stamps (got stamps coming back into UK though). We have been flying Ryanair and Easyjet. One of the times they asked about visa but they had no problems as soon as we showed the UK residence card. We were driving to France and there were no questions asked at all.

We did have our marriage certificate with us to Spain and yes they were acting illegal. We were only going for a 5 day holiday to see some family over there and now we are stuck with a months long battle to sort it out :/

Directive/2004/38/EC · Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Tue Dec 18, 2007 9:14 pm

Tobbe wrote:We did have our marriage certificate with us to Spain and yes they were acting illegal. We were only going for a 5 day holiday to see some family over there and now we are stuck with a months long battle to sort it out :/

And they said that you did not have enough money for your visit? I hope they wrote it down!

There is no requirement that either you or your wife have any particular amount of money when you travel to another member state for under 3 months. You can have no money and they still must let both of you in.

Tobbe · Post by **Tobbe** » Tue Dec 25, 2007 4:46 pm

Yeah we have it in writing. Solvit Spain is currently working on it trying to get our records deleted from the Schengen data base and hopefully to get the stamp in the passport canceled. The guideline time of 10 weeks for Solvit will be up on the 31st of December so hopefully we will hear something back soon. I don't have any high hopes though since everytime we have been in contact with any officals from Spain they have started out as very helpful until we stated our case and then they just ignore us but maybe Solvit has good enough contacts?

Directive/2004/38/EC · Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 9:33 am

Tobbe wrote:Yeah we have it in writing.

You should definitely petition the European Parliament no matter what happens with Solvit. Give the Spanish a little bit of heat. (You can request that your name not be published if you so desire).

See http://eumovement.wordpress.com/info-czech-republic/ for an example of a couple with a similar experience to yours (including case law references)

Directive/2004/38/EC · Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Thu May 01, 2008 8:11 pm

Tobbe, how has this developed in unwinding their mistake?

Tobbe · Post by **Tobbe** » Fri May 02, 2008 9:24 am

It has been moving extremely slowly so nothing new to report.

I did however learn that the Schengen embassies in London had a meeting a few weeks ago to discussing how to treat EEA residence cards issued by the UK. Most of the embassies had no idea on how to treat them but all of them are going to investigate it. Result so far is that Germany and Sweden do accept EEA cards instead of Schengen visas. France and Spain do not accept them and you should apply for a Schengen visa.

I guess we have just been lucky in France beforeâ€¦.

It doesnâ€™t make sense though. If I understand it correctly then the Schengen visa is actually just an entry clearance for EEA family members and is not needed for the actual stay inside the EU fortification.

So if we were to go to Sweden by air and then drive back to the UK through Europe. Then no visa is needed since the EEA card is good enough for entry clearance in Sweden. But are we then legally in France during the trip back? Surely they canâ€™t ask for a Schengen visa to cross the internal borders? (Can you even get a Schengen visa from inside Schengen?) If the visa is just acting as an entry clearance then surely we are legally in France during the trip back.

However if we want to drive through Europe to Sweden and then return by Air then we must have a visa or we will be illegally in France.

Bloody mess really

WOODY21 · Post by **WOODY21** » Fri May 02, 2008 10:59 am

Am i correct if my wife has ILR we reside in the UK & we wish to go and stay in SPAIN she does not require a Schengen visa and she can work without any issues ?Im a UK citizen obviously i can work freely but what avenue does she go down ?

86ti · Post by **86ti** » Fri May 02, 2008 11:08 am

Tobbe wrote:It has been moving extremely slowly so nothing new to report.

I did however learn that the Schengen embassies in London had a meeting a few weeks ago to discussing how to treat EEA residence cards issued by the UK. Most of the embassies had no idea on how to treat them but all of them are going to investigate it. Result so far is that Germany and Sweden do accept EEA cards instead of Schengen visas. France and Spain do not accept them and you should apply for a Schengen visa.

Yes, the Austrian embassy also told me about the meeting and that "3 countries have implemented the directive 2004/38/EC". Probably, that's what they ment: some countries now accept the UK residence card.

Interesting. It's mid 2008 and finally they figured that something needs to be done... Isn't there something in the directive about sanctions after April 30, 2008?

BTW, my situation is that I could fly without visa to Germany as you pointed out. The Austrian embassy's webpage in Berlin says that EEA resident permits entitle to visa free entry (EEA, nothing about UK) from Germany to Austria. Bloody mess, indeed.

86ti · Post by **86ti** » Fri May 02, 2008 11:11 am

86ti wrote: Yes, the Austrian embassy also told me about the meeting and that "3 countries have implemented the directive 2004/38/EC". Probably, that's what they ment: some countries now accept the UK residence card.

Oh, forgot! If there are really just 3 countries, then the third must be Latvia. Their embassy told me so.

Directive/2004/38/EC · Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Fri May 02, 2008 11:25 am

86ti wrote:BTW, my situation is that I could fly without visa to Germany as you pointed out. The Austrian embassy's webpage in Berlin says that EEA resident permits entitle to visa free entry (EEA, nothing about UK) from Germany to Austria. Bloody mess, indeed.

EEA includes the UK! Do you have a link to the web page?

Tobbe · Post by **Tobbe** » Fri May 02, 2008 11:37 am

WOODY21:
If your wife is a national that normally needs a Schengen visa then she will need to get one if you wish to enter Spain from outside of Schengen. So if you fly directly to Spain from UK then she will need one. Her immigration status granted under UK law is irrelevant since UK is not a part of Schengen. Theoretically they should issue the visa at the border control but donâ€™t bank on it. Itâ€™s better to go and get a visa from the embassy in London before travelling. When you are in Spain then BOTH you and your wife must register and apply for residence cards within 3 months. You are both allowed to work from day 1.

86ti · Post by **86ti** » Fri May 02, 2008 11:47 am

Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:
86ti wrote:BTW, my situation is that I could fly without visa to Germany as you pointed out. The Austrian embassy's webpage in Berlin says that EEA resident permits entitle to visa free entry (EEA, nothing about UK) from Germany to Austria. Bloody mess, indeed.
EEA includes the UK! Do you have a link to the web page?

Certainly the UK is a member of the EEA! But the embassy page (again German only) actually says "EWG" not EU?!

Tobbe · Post by **Tobbe** » Fri May 02, 2008 11:56 am

Certainly the UK is a member of the EEA! But the embassy page (again German only) actually says "EWG" not EU?!

Which is more correct then EU since it also includes countries like Iceland and Norway. Nice to see that they actually done something correct

A few more years and we might actually have free movement within Europe!

86ti · Post by **86ti** » Fri May 02, 2008 12:13 pm

Tobbe wrote:
Certainly the UK is a member of the EEA! But the embassy page (again German only) actually says "EWG" not EU?!
Which is more correct then EU since it also includes countries like Iceland and Norway. Nice to see that they actually done something correct A few more years and we might actually have free movement within Europe!

Yes, but the German equivalent of EEA = "EWR". The "EWG" was renamed "EG" (= EC in English?) in 1993. So basically the web page would state that the text would be valid for the EU (which still includes the UK) as far as I understand. Confused? Me too! It is strange for me that they used the old name "EWG".

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EEA Citizen with non-EEA Family Member, travelling to Spain.

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