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Time to tighten Tier1

Archived UK Tier 1 (General) points system forum. This route no longer exists.

Moderators: Casa, push, JAJ, ca.funke, Amber, zimba, vinny, Obie, EUsmileWEallsmile, batleykhan, meself2, geriatrix, John, ChetanOjha, archigabe, Administrator

scotlandindian
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Time to tighten Tier1

Post by scotlandindian » Sun May 23, 2010 12:34 pm

Looks like people are coming into UK with tier1 without any plans .

I am writing this because i am now supporting some of my friends who are here from india and jobless for 8 months .

well one of them is just 24 and with just 2-3 years of IT experience and no idea how on earth he is called Highly skilled and why on earth UK is so dumb to give him Visa and how on earth he earned so much in india to get T1 . He has no basics of IT and i was shocked when he asked me whether java programs run on AIX ....and fell pity for those IT companies hiring these people .....

Why i am worried is being my friend i am feeding him for 8 months and i am exhausted ... being a good friend i cant tell him to get lost but Uk govt should really know what is Highly skilled and i think experience should be added in the Points based system .

My friend who has 8 years of expereince did not get TIER1 from his tier2 but this 24 year old chap who knows nothing got Tier1 . I am just confused what TIER1 is ????

geriatrix
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Post by geriatrix » Sun May 23, 2010 12:48 pm

Are you seeking help to solve your domestic issue (having to feed unemployed friends) or something else?


regards

dev106
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Post by dev106 » Sun May 23, 2010 1:33 pm

Firstly, this is not the place to put all your SHITTT...GOT IT scotlandindian...

There are 1.15 billion people in India, and out of those how many people are coming to abroad??? And you said that your friend got 2-3 years of experience in IT, that it self means that he's good at something or other in his field...so, what if he comes and ask you something which looks silly but the bottom line is at that moment he might not be knowing that but later on you and your friend will have same knowledge on that particular subject.

As, a friend you need to very supportive and inspiring to your friends as you know the situation of this country.

NO ONE IS PERFECT MATE...try to help people and if you are not in a position to help then at least encourage your friends, give them some tips but don’t discourage them...Ok...

Just for example, look at this forum...people come here to find solution to their problems...ask yourself, do moderators get anything by giving their valuable suggestions?? do they earn millions out of this????

It’s just helping one n other....that what HUMANITY is mate...

Please, never discourage anyone...I really appreciate you for being very helpful to your friends since 8 months, but don’t get vexed mate...

A FRIEND IN NEED...IS A FRIEND IN DEED...

I'm sorry if I sound rude...but just thought to remind you few things...that’s it...

My best wishes for your friends...

scotlandindian
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no mate

Post by scotlandindian » Sun May 23, 2010 3:17 pm

sushdmehta wrote:Are you seeking help to solve your domestic issue (having to feed unemployed friends) or something else?
regards
:) .No mate .

I am just reminding the people who just comes in and gets stuck here without money and food . In my list i already know 10 guys jobless for > 6 months . one guy is enaged and his marriage is postponed for 9 months .....

And reminding the PBS is not strong enough to see if somebody is skilled or not . Else many people come in thinking they are skilled and remain here worser than unskilled people .

PBS should have another category to really check somebody is Highly skilled in what he is doing . For example , if sombody says he is an IT guy . Number of years of experience , certicates and achevements in the particular field . Main is experience or some sort of techinal test to test his worth .

Somebody getting Big salary is not necessary that he can do a skilled Job in UK . i know a guy who works in his uncles company and his uncle pays him 7 lakh rupees to get him T1 .

I am not being against T1 or something . I am just worried of these guys who come in but cannot really catch up the Uk market without real powerful skills . and it is tough for those who come in straight from others countries but it is easier for those who already have 2- 3 years Uk exp like tier2.

I am just telling people to think ....I know truth is bitter and many people down here cannot digest what i told .But that is the naked truth ...

IMHO4u
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Post by IMHO4u » Sun May 23, 2010 8:25 pm

To Sushdmehta – He is not asking for any advice on his domestic issues, all he did was to open up the topic on fundamental question of Are Tier 1 visas too easy and ‘highly skilled’ sometimes is not even skilled! Nothing wrong in opening an issue ...

To dev106 – lol .. no comments on your rant ... you are way of the mark in terms of what exactly the guy was discussing ...

Scotlandindian – You are so right! Highly skilled means some earnings + some experience and a degree. All this is in abundance when you look at Indian IT market and hence the problem .. A bad job market made worse by constant inflow of every dreaming Indian IT grads who like many think they can make it easy (Some can, for rest its a bad dream....)

Why the mess – No caps, No domain specific visas. UK should learn from US, Canada ... annual cap is a must and visa should only be given specific to domains/job categories (like Canada..)
If you don’t give the visa in first place, most people won’t get in, just to waste their money! Those who do get in after tighten rules, won’t feel cheated as there will be enough jobs (hopefully...)

Hope new government does a better job!

ukswus
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Re: Time to tighten Tier1

Post by ukswus » Sun May 23, 2010 9:30 pm

"Looks like people are coming into UK with tier1 without any plans"

Looks like SOME people are coming to the UK without any plans, and SOME people are extrapolating this experience to the whole population of Tier 1 holders.


What you need to do is stop generalizing based on your own limited experience, and instead look at the published statisitics (e.g. MAC recommendations report).

P.S. I had quite limited work experience, but I had no problem finding a relatively well-paying job very soon after my arrival into the UK, even in this economic climate. You see, circumastances can be quite different.

IMHO4u
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Post by IMHO4u » Sun May 23, 2010 10:30 pm

Statistics hide more than they reveal ... you yourself answered your case, as mentioned .. point is to understand the majority.
You found a job, great for you.

The guy who initiated the thread has SOME friends not able to do so, I personally know few who are stuck along with recruiting some fresh from boat on real bad wages .. (and they still feel they are lucky ... )

Reading this forum, I understood more clearly one thing .. more people are looking than getting!

Some problems as mentioned are specific to domains, say like IT .. too many in. Just think about it, if its too easy, may be its not that great!

But again, who are we to judge, thank god the new government thinks on my lines (Since you don’t like someone’s limited experience, you may like well researched and thoughtful opinion of government of UK, which is planning to close this leak of economic migrants... good ! ) ... god bless .. this helps both sides, people won’t be cheated and genuine highly skilled guys will make it.

I am all in favour of immigration ... especially highly skilled ones, its definite plus for country, provided the person coming is really highly skilled and not many in the same domain are already in .. that is the person coming is needed, really needed.

P.S: Even if you find exceptions, reality remains the same. And yes, to answer the question raised in topic - Are tier 1 visas too easy - YES, Change needed - YES.

PaperPusher
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Post by PaperPusher » Sun May 23, 2010 10:46 pm

They could do something other than IT, just a thought.

ukswus
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Post by ukswus » Mon May 24, 2010 7:12 am

I don't see how Tier 1 visas can be "too easy", especially after recent changes. At any rate, the case of a person looking for work for 8 months is definitely not representative of those receiving visas after April changes were implemented. As for the published statisitics, this is the only objective way to assess success of the program.

Also, a point was made about shifting Tier 1 into "occupasions-driven" program, ie give visas to those only on the skill shortages list. MAC very clearly said that the whole point of Tier 1 is about provoding a long-term supply of high skill workers with a variety of skills, not responding to current demand (for which there exists Tier 2). In my personal case, I very much doubt that my specialty would be on the skills shortage list, since it is too rare to even be mentioned. However, the shortage is real and severe, which was confirmed by my quick success in getting a job offer.

prisat
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Post by prisat » Mon May 24, 2010 3:10 pm

IMHO4u wrote:To Sushdmehta – He is not asking for any advice on his domestic issues, all he did was to open up the topic on fundamental question of Are Tier 1 visas too easy and ‘highly skilled’ sometimes is not even skilled! Nothing wrong in opening an issue ...

To dev106 – lol .. no comments on your rant ... you are way of the mark in terms of what exactly the guy was discussing ...


Why the mess – No caps, No domain specific visas. UK should learn from US, Canada ... annual cap is a must and visa should only be given specific to domains/job categories (like Canada..)
If you don’t give the visa in first place, most people won’t get in, just to waste their money! Those who do get in after tighten rules, won’t feel cheated as there will be enough jobs (hopefully...)

Hope new government does a better job!

DO YOU MEAN TO SAY THAT UK LAW MAKERS and DECISION MAKERS MADE A MISTAKE ON THIS ???? :oops:
What you have is a silly question and iam sure Law makers go on facts before deciding things... We dont have to undervalue all those who approved this !!!! Remember - they do have a parliament as we have !!!!

No Comments on people who supported this

And scotlandindian - It is ur own commitment to support ur friends and dont insult ur friends. Please try to be supportive.

If at all this STORY IS TRUE, then on one fine day if the person whom u r supporting finds ur attitude towards him - where will you go and have ur face !!!!

8) Let us give the best to this community so that it gives back the best to us !!!!!

:arrow: If you believe this reply was sarcastic, then please do not hesitate to treat me as a fool. :wink:

Happy Living....

:idea: :idea: :idea: :idea:
Every morning in Africa, a deer wakes up.
It knows it must run faster than the fastest lion or it will be killed.

Every morning a lion wakes up. It knows it must run faster than the slowest deer or it will starve to death.

It doesn't matter if you are a lion or a deer. When the sun comes up you'd better be running... :idea: :idea: :idea: :idea:

prisat
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Post by prisat » Mon May 24, 2010 3:30 pm

sushdmehta wrote:Are you seeking help to solve your domestic issue (having to feed unemployed friends) or something else?

regards
Did you mean a donation ????? LoL :lol:

rajesh9pl
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Post by rajesh9pl » Mon May 24, 2010 3:37 pm

I am in favour of having cap. Which should be adjusted based on shortage. Otherwise, more migrants and very lesser jobs. I am also in favour of having strict rule on english langauge requirement, a higher IELTS/TOEFL score. Degree taught is english does not help.

Many who come on Tier1 from India, does not have any idea of UK job market.

*FC*
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Post by *FC* » Mon May 24, 2010 3:37 pm

How about having a discussion on the point raised and not about emotional aspects of human relationships, friendships, community service and a whole lot of other crap?

And if some "highly skilled" people here bother to read about the intentions of the person who created this thread, then it is all the above and he is trying to help people by making sure they dont suffer more !! :roll:

For the sin of being "highly skilled" ...... :roll:

ukswus
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Post by ukswus » Mon May 24, 2010 3:40 pm

No offense, but I am not so sure you would pass such a language test...
rajesh9pl wrote:I am in favour of having cap. Which should be adjusted based on shortage. Otherwise, more migrants and very lesser jobs. I am also in favour of having strict rule on english langauge requirement, a higher IELTS/TOEFL score. Degree taught is english does not help.

Many who come on Tier1 from India, does not have any idea of UK job market.

cooltt_18
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Post by cooltt_18 » Tue May 25, 2010 7:26 am

scotlandindian : take a walk ..if u hav issues with supporting ur "friends" then tats ur prob ..this is not the forum for ranting about it .. and neither should b generalising "your" experience of ur friends to the entire Indian IT community .. ukswus -- u were bang on mate

IMHO4u : well thank you for your lecture on "statistics" .. "Reading this forum, I understood more clearly one thing .. more people are looking than getting!" ..i wonder how you achieved this ..and also some of the conclusions that you've made regarding the visa, its benefits and the entire process .. to hazard a guess mayb even you've had some friends you reluctantly had to support and hence the rant .. anyway ukswus -- again, i think u were bang on mate

indianinwold : thanks but we will treat you as a fool from now on .. *FC* put this in better words though ..

rajesh9pl : r u sh*t worried about competition?? and btw ur post makes me wonder if you could ever clear an english language test .. ur attitude is also typically indian ..since you've "managed" to get a tier-1 (and i am assuming a job too), you do not wish the same for your fellow countrymen .. sigh

Anio
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Post by Anio » Tue May 25, 2010 8:53 am

I think this topic is generally 'food for thought' for anyone intending to apply for Tier 1. Everyone's experience is different and our goals/ aspirations are very different too. Some people have come to the UK with high expectations only to have them dashed by the realities of life.

I was fortunate to have a job offer (highly skilled) before i came to the UK but even that didn't prepare me for the reality of the recession, redundancies and whatever followed in terms of my experience. I was unable to get the pay rise promised during my job interview and had to be grateful for a job during the hard season. I improvised by getting a 2nd job (non highly skilled) and i was willing to do what it takes to make it here. I left a great job back home and would have been earning much more than what i earn in the UK with both jobs. Combined with that there is always the worry about extension and the ever changing policies because with a young family – the stakes are a lot higher.

But do i regret the move - not at all!!! Nothing ventured, nothing gained! I will do it again to gain valuable international experience, further my education and provide better foundation for my young children. Besides, I have quite a few friends who are doing very well in the UK and didn’t have my kind of stress, which is very good for them.

My only advise for those applying with highly skilled experience or not is to be realistic about expectations (esp. if you’ve coming with dependants) and be ready to improvise till you find your feet and get to where you want to be.

dima
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Post by dima » Tue May 25, 2010 9:28 am

Since ages , its always been survival of the fittest.
As a matter of fact, Even if we have a cap on immigration as some of the members have mentioned( as in Canada or Australia) there is always challenges in getting jobs for the New Immigrants and we indeed need to work hard.. harder to settle in a new country( any Country what so ever).
Pls do not presume that its all green in Canada/Australia just bcoz they have a cap on immigration.
Check these links out , then may be we are in a better position to discuss about the CAP and other details. :)
http://www.clbc.ca/files/Reports/IHB_section_c.pdf
http://www.martinprosperity.org/insight ... bour-force
Njoin with my new iPAD ....it's really magical....

Vitavi
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Post by Vitavi » Tue May 25, 2010 9:35 am

I totally agree with Anio. In this country to have to be not just highly skilled, but also lucky to some extent.

I think the original problem which was posted to the forum was not about highly skilled issue, but rather about that person being tired of supporting his friend for about 8 month without seeing this situation ending. I would personally advice that person to say his friend he has had enough in supporting him, and push his friend to find any job to support himself.

When my friend first arrived to this country she was a very experienced accountant, but still couldn’t find a job in accountancy. So she went to work for Primak just to get by and kept looking for a job in the meantime. She only succeeded after 1 year of trying, but she never regretted her first job. This was because she improved her English substantially and got used to the life in the UK, and the job also gave her a chance to pay the bills and survive. Shortly after she moved to another position, which paid higher wages, and then she progressed within that company further up the ladder. She is now paid £40,000 but her first salary was only £13,000.

I think it is worth asking your friend to find any job, not necessarily in the IT, but he should still keep looking for a suitable role. In this way it wouldn’t be frustrating for you and also beneficial for your friend.

Also, we all have to acknowledge that the job market in the UK is very tense. I am personally highly skilled and have been working in the financial services industry for 5 years. I am paid good money, but believe I should be worth more. I started to look for another role back in Jan 2010, but still didn’t manage to find anything suitable. I believe the competition on the market is really intense, and it is hard for too many people to find a job right now, particularly for those without some UK work experience.

So, yes. People should be prepared to face challenges and be strong enough to survive in this country.

gotcha
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Post by gotcha » Tue May 25, 2010 12:39 pm

supporting some of my friends who are here from india and jobless for 8 months .
You must be having really dip pockets to support some friends(more than 1). :D

Apart from that, It always amazes me, when immigrants(not british public) talk about stricter control,cap etc. At the same time they don't want to be affected.

*FC*
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Post by *FC* » Tue May 25, 2010 1:16 pm

gotcha wrote:
supporting some of my friends who are here from india and jobless for 8 months .
Apart from that, It always amazes me, when immigrants(not british public) talk about stricter control,cap etc. At the same time they don't want to be affected.
Dont we call the British public dearly beloved if they talk about stricter control etc? :wink:

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Re: Time to tighten Tier1

Post by aliq09 » Tue May 25, 2010 1:21 pm

scotlandindian wrote:Looks like people are coming into UK with tier1 without any plans .

I am writing this because i am now supporting some of my friends who are here from india and jobless for 8 months .

well one of them is just 24 and with just 2-3 years of IT experience and no idea how on earth he is called Highly skilled and why on earth UK is so dumb to give him Visa and how on earth he earned so much in india to get T1 . He has no basics of IT and i was shocked when he asked me whether java programs run on AIX ....and fell pity for those IT companies hiring these people .....

Why i am worried is being my friend i am feeding him for 8 months and i am exhausted ... being a good friend i cant tell him to get lost but Uk govt should really know what is Highly skilled and i think experience should be added in the Points based system .

My friend who has 8 years of expereince did not get TIER1 from his tier2 but this 24 year old chap who knows nothing got Tier1 . I am just confused what TIER1 is ????


HI ,

Allot of people have replied on the post but i will try to give my opinion in a positive way while considering above remarks ...

TIER1 system is based on points and if you get the points , you are in with visa stamped. Now the rule is tough and if you are " paid well in your country , than you are qualified to have TIER1 " .

You need 15 months , and out of 15 you have to select 12 or less .. suppose i had a good job and some thing goes wrong just 8 months before and they fired me ( for instance) so i will not apply the visa as it will be rejected. So my point is the system is fairly good but as for all system , there are ways to play around , and thus in Tier1 , people are playing around . If you are earning RS 80000 or say 60000 a month than you will qualify for it ..yes! so if every body is earning the amount than it means our countries ( Asian country India and Pakistan especially), are good and there is no need to go from here ...

" My first point : if you are really qualified , you will get job " in UK yes! you have to face some steps initially .... "

TIER1 is good but if you have played in TIER1 and you are not qualified person than you will face problems" .

Normally the people who comes in IT back ground have attain a medium level and i can't find some one coming with CCIE from these countries and saying i have no job ???

A good MBA or Engineering from Indian institute of Technology will get a job .. My point is YOU HAVE TO BE TRULY HIGHLY SKILLED ...

2) Why i am worried is being my friend i am feeding him for 8 months and i am exhausted ... being a good friend i cant tell him to get lost but Uk govt should really know what is Highly skilled and i think experience should be added in the Points based system .


Give your friend support and path to get job and ask them to post and rectify there Cv's according to job needed. Help them!


3) My friend who has 8 years of expereince did not get TIER1 from his tier2 but this 24 year old chap who knows nothing got Tier1 . I am just confused what TIER1 is ????[/quote]

Yes ! .. this is the fact .... good people are always left behind ... but you have to see one thing here .. let have a example

" You have done MBA from top 10 uni in India ... what salary u will get .. good ..yes! so my point is TIER1 is for people already having very good status at there home country and now UK is giving them a chance to come and become part of this society.
Thanks

Ali

gotcha
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Post by gotcha » Tue May 25, 2010 1:27 pm

*FC* wrote: Dont we call the British public dearly beloved if they talk about stricter control etc? :wink:
Yes, and hypocrite is word, if it's immigrant.

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Post by prisat » Tue May 25, 2010 4:17 pm

gotcha wrote:
supporting some of my friends who are here from india and jobless for 8 months .
You must be having really dip pockets to support some friends(more than 1). :D

Apart from that, It always amazes me, when immigrants(not british public) talk about stricter control,cap etc. At the same time they don't want to be affected.
I think i understood what you actually meant :P

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Post by geriatrix » Wed May 26, 2010 10:41 am

Haven't seen anyone highlighting the flaws in the system when they are in their home country preparing their PBS applications. But once they are in the UK, with visa in the passport and a job to go to, the flaws in the system become so apparent and difficult to bear! Right?

:lol: Love the attitude.


regards

saj19
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Post by saj19 » Wed May 26, 2010 11:23 am

Getting bit off topic, these guys talk about capping NON EU people coming here as immigrantion is very high blah blah. But the statistics say other thing. Its the people from East european countries which are flocking in and grabbing their resources. When Poland joined EU, more than 1.3 millon came to UK in 1 year

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