Irish prisoners a deportation "special case"

[JAJ]

According to the Guardian, it's been decided not to deport the majority of Irish citizen prisoners from the United Kingdom:
http://politics.guardian.co.uk/homeaffa ... 44,00.html

[Dawie]

I think the Home Office just saw the futility of trying to deport people back to a country where they could just get on a plane back to the UK as soon as they landed.

Common travel area = unenforcable deportation orders

In fact, the common travel area provides a great loop hole for ANY EU citizen who has been deported from the UK. Just simply catch a flight to Dublin from your home country and then hop on to a plane to London or a train to Belfast. There's no immigration control when travelling from Ireland to the UK and because you're an EU citizen, immigration authorities in Dublin won't even look at you twice as you make your way to the UK.

Issuing deportation orders to EU citizens these days amounts to nothing more than a symbolic wrap on the knuckles.

[joesoap101]

In Ireland it is often touted in the media at the extent of foreigners in Irish jails. Conveniently they forget that the Irish make up one of the largest proportions of foreign prisoners in the UK. Foreign being a word of convenience because Irish citizens are not considered 'foreign' in the UK.

[JAJ]

I think the Home Office just saw the futility of trying to deport people back to a country where they could just get on a plane back to the UK as soon as they landed.

Common travel area = unenforcable deportation orders

In fact, the common travel area provides a great loop hole for ANY EU citizen who has been deported from the UK. Just simply catch a flight to Dublin from your home country and then hop on to a plane to London or a train to Belfast. There's no immigration control when travelling from Ireland to the UK and because you're an EU citizen, immigration authorities in Dublin won't even look at you twice as you make your way to the UK.

This is the reason why the Common Travel Area could easily be ended in the near future, unless the Irish authorities adopt a policy of excluding anyone who has been excluded from the United Kingdom.

This of course wouldn't apply to Irish citizens but could apply to anyone else.

The alternative approach is to use the deterrent of a prison sentence for any EU/EEA citizen caught in the United Kingdom in defiance of a deportation order.

[JAJ]

In Ireland it is often touted in the media at the extent of foreigners in Irish jails. Conveniently they forget that the Irish make up one of the largest proportions of foreign prisoners in the UK. Foreign being a word of convenience because Irish citizens are not considered 'foreign' in the UK.

The fact that the Irish are not technically "foreign" citizens is no basis to claim any civic advantage in the United Kingdom, because the same applies to citizens of all Commonwealth countries.

On a de-facto as opposed to de-jure basis, the Irish are as foreign as anyone else. That said, proximity to the United Kingdom gives their government a little more leverage over British public policy than would be the case for the average Commonwealth government. Unless a strong reason exists to the contrary, most British governments would rather have good relations rather than acrimony with an immediate neighbour.

[joesoap101]

JAJ your verbose legal-speak is rather tedious. I'm not interested in semantics which you are obviously obsessed about. The reality is that the Irish enjoy a privileged position in the UK whether de jure or de facto.

Acrimony is a perfect term to describe how most Irish people feel about the British who are still occupying their island.

[JAJ]

Acrimony is a perfect term to describe how most Irish people feel about the British who are still occupying their island.

Considering the extent to which successive British governments have granted special privileges to Irish citizens (including the concessions mentioned in this thread), and the extent to which successive generations of Irish citizens have preferred to settle in the United Kingdom, it is ironic and regrettable that such aggressive anti-British nationalism still appears to live on in the Republic of Ireland.

Many British citizens might reasonably question why Irish citizens should have any privileges in the United Kingdom if this represents their true feelings.

[Marco 72]

JAJ your verbose legal-speak is rather tedious.

Actually, I find his messages among the most interesting and informative on this forum.

[joesoap101]

Well both Irish and British citizens have privileges in both jurisdictions, you make it sound as if the British are so considerate in their unilateral approach when this is not the case. I’m not even Irish and I agree that Britain really has no claim to any part of the island of Ireland. You might look closer to home, seems like the Scots want out as well would you call that nationalism or republicanism?
Also after 800 years of British aggression I'm sure you would want them out of your country so the Irish point of view is understandable. The Irish didn’t ask for special treatment in fact I believe it stems from the fact that the British didn’t really want to recognise Irish nationality.
Irish citizens 'preferred' to settle in the UK? That’s ridiculous, they went to the USA first and Britain was the last resort and this might have been the case 2 or 3 decades ago but you might have missed some facts:
1. Ireland's GDP is now $44 000 per capita PPP, UK: $31 000
2. Unemployment in Ireland is at 4.3% and 5.4% in the UK

So these days when the odd Irish person says they're immigrating to Britain they get asked why on earth they want to do that because it would be a step down!

Also please note that this post is not anti-British nor is it pro-Irish but I think you might have the incorrect facts regarding Ireland.

[JAJ]

I’m not even Irish and I agree that Britain really has no claim to any part of the island of Ireland.

The international community recognises (and has always recognised) that Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom. Just like much of the former eastern provinces of Germany are now understood to be (permanently) part of Poland.

You might look closer to home, seems like the Scots want out as well would you call that nationalism or republicanism?
Also after 800 years of British aggression I'm sure you would want them out of your country so the Irish point of view is understandable. The Irish didn’t ask for special treatment in fact I believe it stems from the fact that the British didn’t really want to recognise Irish nationality.
Irish citizens 'preferred' to settle in the UK? That’s ridiculous, they went to the USA first and Britain was the last resort and this might have been the case 2 or 3 decades ago but you might have missed some facts:
1. Ireland's GDP is now $44 000 per capita PPP, UK: $31 000
2. Unemployment in Ireland is at 4.3% and 5.4% in the UK

This is not really the place for a lengthy discussion of the relationship between the United Kingdom and Republic of Ireland. What the French-speaking leaders of England did or did not do 800 years ago is hardly relevant to the issues today.

The fact that the Republic of Ireland has transformed its economy in the last generation is something for which the Irish can be congratulated. Although the GDP figures you quote are not quite a fair comparison as they are artificially inflated due to the high level of foreign investment in the Republic of Ireland. I very much doubt living standards in the Republic of Ireland are 30% higher than the United Kingdom average.

Support for the people of Northern Ireland, or pointing out the constitutional facts regarding the status of Irish citizens in Britain, does not imply any hostility towards the Republic of Ireland as a nation.

And as for Scotland, the future will decide how that works out. The Canadians have already been down that path with Quebec.

So these days when the odd Irish person says they're immigrating to Britain they get asked why on earth they want to do that because it would be a step down!

People have a variety of reasons for emigrating. As a much larger economy, the United Kingdom will always be able to offer a greater variety of opportunities than is possible in the Republic of Ireland. And there will always be some who, for personal, cultural or political reasons, would prefer to live in the United Kingdom.

Also please note that this post is not anti-British nor is it pro-Irish but I think you might have the incorrect facts regarding Ireland.

I don't know how a suggestion that a part of the United Kingdom containing over a million British citizens be handed over to a foreign country could be construed as anything other than "anti-British".

[joesoap101]

Well the Economist Intelligence unit found, taking everything into account and not only economics, that Ireland was the best place in the world to live (beating Switzerland to 2nd place) in 2005 while the UK came in at 29th position.

Recently UNICEF reported that Britain was the worst place in europe to grow up in and 2nd worst in the developed world. Ireland although not faring particularly well came in about average.

Further more Ireland ranks 4th in the Human Development Index while the UK is in 17th position.

I understand it is hard for condescending Britons (obviously not all are condescending) to accept that Ireland is now a more successful country in just about every category. It should be noted that the British are the largest group of immigrants to Ireland by far. In 2002 more than 200 000 people who were born in Britain lived in Ireland.

It is the position of the current Irish government that Ireland should be united. It’s not anti-British it’s a legitimate claim which will continue being pursued politically. It’s ironic that many unionists in Northern Ireland now choose to travel on Irish passports. Keep in mind that if a referendum is held and more than 50% vote for a united Ireland it will be handed over.

[JAJ]

I understand it is hard for condescending Britons (obviously not all are condescending) to accept that Ireland is now a more successful country in just about every category.

I'm not sure where I made any suggestion that the Republic of Ireland was less than "successful". Although it's not really all that value-added to use selective rankings to "prove" that life in one developed country is marginally "better" than another one.

It’s ironic that many unionists in Northern Ireland now choose to travel on Irish passports. Keep in mind that if a referendum is held and more than 50% vote for a united Ireland it will be handed over.

Anecdotally, a suprisingly high number of "nationalists" choose to hold British passports too. As to whether there will ever be a referendum on leaving the United Kingdom, let alone a vote in favour, that is for the future to decide. The economic and political climate in a generation could be very different to now.

[joesoap101]

Well they're not selective, thats a common response when you lose an argument. Nationalists hold British passports because that has been the historic position. Until the Good Friday Agreement very few people in Northern Ireland held Irish passports.

So for everyone who wish to take something from this debate-

All those affected by the HSMP and who have been short changed by the British government: come to Ireland, the salaries are higher than those on offer in the UK, and after 3 years you can obtain permanent residence. Ireland needs a large amount of consultants/doctors/nurses etc and it would appear that non-EU citizens would be more welcome in Ireland than in the UK.

[Dawie]

Unfortunately Ireland's immigration system makes the UK's immigration system look like a well-oiled machine by comparison. People posting on this board regularly post stories about 2 year waiting times for naturalisation, 6 month waiting times for EU1 applications.

Although the Home Office is not perfect it is a lot more transparent than the Irish department of justice and immigration and ultimately that is going to play a huge role in people's decisions.

[joesoap101]

That is true, and I agree many immigration related issues are painfully slow. Canada takes between 3 and 5 years to complete applications so in that context its quite reasonable. As regards to slow naturalisation, it now takes up to 30 months- I would rather obtain permanent status after 3 years compared to 5 in the UK. So at the end of the day it only takes about 7-12 months longer to obtain citizenship in Ireland. Naturalisation in Spain takes approximately 12 years based on residency if you're not from certain latin american countries.

I still believe Ireland is a viable alternative for those who have been cheated by the home office!

[JAJ]

As regards to slow naturalisation, it now takes up to 30 months- I would rather obtain permanent status after 3 years compared to 5 in the UK. So at the end of the day it only takes about 7-12 months longer to obtain citizenship in Ireland.

It's only 3 years for naturalisation if married to an Irish citizen. The waiting time is 5 years otherwise.

As for permanent residence, I thought the Irish were only in the process of introducing the concept and I would be interested to know if it's available before 5 years residence.

[JAJ]

Nationalists hold British passports because that has been the historic position. Until the Good Friday Agreement very few people in Northern Ireland held Irish passports.

I think you need to check your facts - Irish passports have been available in Northern Ireland since 1956. Since then at least, if "nationalists" carry a British passport it is always a result of choice, not circumstance.

[Marco 72]

Anecdotally, a suprisingly high number of "nationalists" choose to hold British passports too.

A friend of mine (a Catholic priest from NI) once told me that a reason why many NI Catholics got a British passport was that it was cheaper than getting an Irish one. I don't know if this is still the case.

Well the Economist Intelligence unit found, taking everything into account and not only economics, that Ireland was the best place in the world to live (beating Switzerland to 2nd place) in 2005 while the UK came in at 29th position.

One problem with this kind of comparison is that most immigrants who come to the UK head for London or the southeast, where most of the jobs are. So it would be more useful to compare London with Dublin rather than the UK with Eire as a whole.

As for permanent residence, I thought the Irish were only in the process of introducing the concept and I would be interested to know if it's available before 5 years residence.

Searching on Google, it doesn't seem to have been introduced yet.

[joesoap101]

I said very few people held Irish passports in Northern Ireland, not that they were not available there- perhaps you need to read my posts properly JAJ. Also there was a perception that a British passport was more valuable years ago, now travelling on a British passport is met with hostility in many countries due to horrendous foreign policy decisions. Irish passports however carry none of this baggage evidenced by the surge in demand for Irish passports from mainland Britain. 6 million people who live in the UK are eligible to apply for Irish passports.

Permanent residence has existed in Ireland for many years it just isn’t called that. In Ireland it is called long term residency which gives you a 5 year stamp in your passport (after 5 years residency on non-temporary permission to remain) which you can renew every 5 years. Further more after 8 years of residence you can apply for a stamp that gives you leave to remain with no condition as to time (if ever something could be callled permanent residence it is this!).

JAJ where did I say naturalisation takes anything less than 5 years except for those married to Irish citizens or those of Irish decent/associations? I wish you would stick to commenting about something you know about, and clearly you don't have the faintest notion of Irish immigration law, you've shown this time and again on this forum.

The new Employment Permits Act 2006 has allowed the minister to grant 'green card' permits, and they are valid for 2 years after which they are renewed indefinitely. You can also apply for permanent residence after 2 years to the dept of justice but because processing is fairly slow I've estimated that you would have permanent status after about 3 years- although you would have an indefinite permit to work much sooner.

Again JAJ SEMANTICS- call the schemes what you like, it still is permanent residence.

I disagree, comparing two cities only and ignoring the rest of the country is not useful especially for those looking for potential countries to immigrate to, because you will not always go to these areas, you will go where you get the first offer of employment, which would often be in the south east but many would be from different regions.

Doing a google search on anything related to immigration to Ireland will not be particularly informative. If you want info regarding this -

http://www.entemp.ie/publications/labou ... ncards.pdf

And best for last-


Ireland hammered England in Croke Park
Ireland 43 - England 13

[Dawie]

With a waiting time of close to 2 and a half years for naturalisation applications, it effectively means that it will take almost 5 and half years to become naturalised by marriage (3 + 2.5) and almost 7 and a half years to naturalise by residence (5 + 2.5).

One can only come to the conclusion that naturalisation applications in Ireland are purposely being help up by the government to serve some kind of political purpose. There's no reason whatsoever why naturalisation applications cannot be dealt with in a few weeks like in the UK.

Unfortunately the political will seems to be lacking for any kind of meaningful change to the Irish immigration system which, it must be said, is run no better than that of a third-world country.

I, and probably a lot of other people, would not consider that Irish long term residency is anywhere close to the concept of permanent residency, or, if you want, indefinite leave to remain in the UK. Although it confers the unrestricted right to work in Ireland, it has to be renewed every 5 years which effectively means it is not permanent or indefinite. Where something has to be renewed, there is the implication that it can be refused.

I would not feel very secure living in a situation where I had "permanent residency" that had to be renewed every 5 years. Not very permanent, is it?

[joesoap101]

It is not so much the fact that you have to renew it than having to get a new residence card with a more up to date photo on it. Like the US green card, which is only valid for 10 years and then it has to be renewed. Also people who obtain long term residency in Ireland often apply at the same time they apply for naturalisation, so the vast majority of them will have Irish citizenship before their long term residency stamp expires.

There was an independent report into the dept of justice and the minister said that more staff will be deployed to the citizenship section. But I agree, I think there is more to this issue than meets the eye. The citizenship section in the dept is actually turning a profit! The problem in Ireland is that the minister personally checks every applicant that is approved by the civil servants after the exhaustive enquiries, this step has to be removed to speed it up.