Visa for Schengen countries

[Fionn]

Hi everybody,

I' m looking fore some clarification regarding the visa for the Schengen Countries..
I used to live in Germany until 2004 and after I left the country I was still able to use my residence permit to travel in all the Schengen countries Unfortunately this permit is expiring very soon and it looks like I will have to apply for a short stay visa everytime that I want to go to Europe, which is going to be a real pain for me and for my employer.
Now..I'm just back from Portugal where I was told by a police officer, that as long as I have a D-irish Visa and a proof that I'm still married to my irish wife, there would be no need for me to apply for s Schengen Visa to enter Portugal. He also told me that this is part of a recent EU-legislation, which is not adopted by all Schengen countries.
This is now really confusing, because this means, that I could enter Spain or France by train without having to go through any controls...But is this legal??

Did anyone hear about all this before?

Thanks a lot and regards

F.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

Now..I'm just back from Portugal where I was told by a police officer, that as long as I have a D-irish Visa and a proof that I'm still married to my irish wife, there would be no need for me to apply for s Schengen Visa to enter Portugal. He also told me that this is part of a recent EU-legislation, which is not adopted by all Schengen countries.

Very interesting!

First a couple of questions.
Where do you live and what permissions/visas do you have from there?
What do you mean by a D-irish visa?

[Fionn]

Hi,
I am currently living in Ireland and I have a valid "residence card" until 2009, which I got through marriage.
The funny thing is that I must go to Dublin tomorrow to apply for a Schengen visa for Germany. Of course I rang them before and I told them the story about Portugal, but they said that they never heard anything similar.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

It is hard to tell what the Portugese person was referring to. But lets take a stab at it...

Directive/2004/38/EC was supposed to mean that if you had a Residence Card from one member state, you would not need a visa to travel to any other member state. In reality, that is so within the Schengen region if you have a residence card from a Schengen country.

Border crossing implementation of that (withing Schengen) is done by the Schengen Borders Code, which is what I suspect the Portugese person was referring to.


REGULATION (EC) No 562/2006 OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT AND OF THE COUNCIL of 15 March 2006
establishing a Community Code on the rules governing the movement of persons across borders
(Schengen Borders Code)
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex ... 032:EN:PDF

has a provision which says that no visa is required (to enter Schengen countries) if you have a 'residence permit'

15. ‘residence permit’ means:
(a) all residence permits issued by the Member States according to the uniform format laid down by Council Regulation (EC) No 1030/2002 of 13 June 2002 laying down a uniform format for residence permits for thirdcountry nationals;
(b) all other documents issued by a Member State to thirdcountry nationals authorising a stay in, or re-entry into, its territory, with the exception of temporary permits issued pending examination of a first application for a residence permit as referred to in point (a) or an application for asylum;

Even though Ireland and UK do not implement this Schengen Borders Code themselves, they are member states in the EU and so residence permits from Ireland may well be accepted as a residence permit of a member state.

[Dawie]

It is hard to tell what the Portugese person was referring to. But lets take a stab at it...

Directive/2004/38/EC was supposed to mean that if you had a Residence Card from one member state, you would not need a visa to travel to any other member state. In reality, that is so within the Schengen region if you have a residence card from a Schengen country.

Border crossing implementation of that (withing Schengen) is done by the Schengen Borders Code, which is what I suspect the Portugese person was referring to.


REGULATION (EC) No 562/2006 OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT AND OF THE COUNCIL of 15 March 2006
establishing a Community Code on the rules governing the movement of persons across borders
(Schengen Borders Code)
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex ... 032:EN:PDF

has a provision which says that no visa is required (to enter Schengen countries) if you have a 'residence permit'

15. ‘residence permit’ means:
(a) all residence permits issued by the Member States according to the uniform format laid down by Council Regulation (EC) No 1030/2002 of 13 June 2002 laying down a uniform format for residence permits for thirdcountry nationals;
(b) all other documents issued by a Member State to thirdcountry nationals authorising a stay in, or re-entry into, its territory, with the exception of temporary permits issued pending examination of a first application for a residence permit as referred to in point (a) or an application for asylum;

Even though Ireland and UK do not implement this Schengen Borders Code themselves, they are member states in the EU and so residence permits from Ireland may well be accepted as a residence permit of a member state.

My interpretation of this legislation was that although the UK, Ireland Denmark are not participating in this legislation, the wording of the legislation does not specifically rule out the possibility of ANY holders of permanent residency in the UK, Ireland and Denmark being able to travel visa free to other EU members.

It's interesting to note that the term "member state" is used but it is not clear whether or not this is in the context of the entire European Union or just the signatories to the Schengen agreement.

[JAJ]

My interpretation of this legislation was that although the UK, Ireland Denmark are not participating in this legislation, the wording of the legislation does not specifically rule out the possibility of ANY holders of permanent residency in the UK, Ireland and Denmark being able to travel visa free to other EU members.

Something of purely theoretical benefit if airlines and other commercial carriers refuse to allow boarding without a passport stamped with a visa/permit.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

My interpretation of this legislation was that although the UK, Ireland Denmark are not participating in this legislation, the wording of the legislation does not specifically rule out the possibility of ANY holders of permanent residency in the UK, Ireland and Denmark being able to travel visa free to other EU members.

It's interesting to note that the term "member state" is used but it is not clear whether or not this is in the context of the entire European Union or just the signatories to the Schengen agreement.

My interpretation is the same as yours. I hope we can find more examples of people using this rule.

I talked with a border guard in Nice in late October. She did not know of the rule (as I described it), but of course I did not have anything printed out to show her.

[Dawie]

My interpretation of this legislation was that although the UK, Ireland Denmark are not participating in this legislation, the wording of the legislation does not specifically rule out the possibility of ANY holders of permanent residency in the UK, Ireland and Denmark being able to travel visa free to other EU members.

It's interesting to note that the term "member state" is used but it is not clear whether or not this is in the context of the entire European Union or just the signatories to the Schengen agreement.

My interpretation is the same as yours. I hope we can find more examples of people using this rule.

I talked with a border guard in Nice in late October. She did not know of the rule (as I described it), but of course I did not have anything printed out to show her.

The French consulate in London's website (http://www.consulfrance-londres.org/art ... rticle=324) still explicitly states in their FAQ section that holders of UK residency permits are not entitled to enter the Schengen space without a Schengen visa if they ordinarily require one.

Despite the clear (at least to me) implication in the legislation that holders of UK residency holders ARE in fact entitled to enter the Schengen space without a visa, I'm guessing that in practice the Schengen groups of countries will continue to "punish" the UK and Ireland for not signing up to the full Schengen agreement.

The main reason I think for this is that the UK and Ireland operate different visa lists for determining which nationalities may or may not enter without a visa. For example South Africans and quite a few other Southern African countries (like Namibia, Botswana and Lesotho) are entitled to enter the UK without a visa for tourist and business purposes. If you look at the list of nationalities permitted to enter the Schengen space without a visa there is not a single African country on the list.

I suspect these differing opinions on which nationalities deserve to enter visa free contributes to the problem.

I have to add that as someone who requires a Schengen visa, I find it quite frustrating that despite having lived in the UK for 5 years and holding ILR, I am still required to go through all the hassle of obtaining a Schengen visa. So much for the European Union....

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=11012 points to a list of residence permits referred to in Article 2(15) of Regulation (EC) No 562/2006

I am not sure what the list's legal status is - I think it is a snapshot in time of countries that were required to self-report. (Malta is the only one missing).

[Dawie]

http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=11012 points to a list of residence permits referred to in Article 2(15) of Regulation (EC) No 562/2006

I am not sure what the list's legal status is - I think it is a snapshot in time of countries that were required to self-report. (Malta is the only one missing).

Interesting. The confusion seems to really be around the definition of the term "member state". In some parts of the legislation "member state" seems to refer to signatories of the Schengen agreement, and in other parts it seems to refer to actual members of the European Union.

Doing a quick search for the word "Schengen" on the document outlining the list of residence permits only brings up 2 hits and none of those gives any clue on what the definition of "member state" is.

[joesoap101]

I think another potential problem is the fact that an Irish residence permit (certificate of registration) does not automatically entitle you to enter the country - although I have never heard of anyone being refused entry whilst having a residence permit. This is also the reason why people who need visas to enter ireland, also need to apply for a re-entry visa despite having a residence permit.

Another issue- The Schengen countries are enjoying the cash cow that their embassies in Britain and Ireland represent, especially seeing that fees are now €60 per application.

Entry Conditions for third country nationals

(b) they are in possession of a valid visa, if required pursuant
to Council Regulation (EC) No 539/2001 of 15 March 2001
listing the third countries whose nationals must be in possession
of visas when crossing the external borders and those
whose nationals are exempt from that requirement (1), except
where they hold a valid residence permit;

It says Schengen Borders code at the top but it would be best to contact someone who deals with EU law to clarify the matter. I remember having to inform the Spanish embassy in dublin that I was entitled to travel to spain without a visa because I held a schengen residence permit, they said this was not true. I emailed the embassy in London and two weeks later their website confirmed that I was correct. Many embassies often arent aware of the law or openly flout it!

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

The rules say that member states (except those not bound by the regulation) must report which residence permits they issue are relevant. Since the UK and Ireland are not bound by the regulation, one interpretation is that they were not forced to report the relevant types of residence permit.

I am sure there is also a lot of odd politics caused by the UK/Irish position and Schengen.

[Dawie]

The rules say that member states (except those not bound by the regulation) must report which residence permits they issue are relevant. Since the UK and Ireland are not bound by the regulation, one interpretation is that they were not forced to report the relevant types of residence permit.

I am sure there is also a lot of odd politics caused by the UK/Irish position and Schengen.

It's pure politics. There's absolutely no security reason why a UK holder of ILR should not be allowed to enter Schengenland without a visa. The UK's immigration and vetting procedures appear to be much more stringent than many other European countries. Compare entering the UK through a major airport, and entering a Schengen country through a major airport. When entering the UK ALL foreigners are interrogated on arrival, even those who hold ILR. However when entering Schengen countries on a measly tourist visa I never get asked anything, not even how long am I staying.

[Fionn]

hi everybody,

thanks for all you interesting answers.
I just want to let you know how I got on with my Schengen visa application at the German embassy.
First of all, I had to drive from Cork to Dublin to show my face to the visa officer, in case someone else has decided to apply for a visa in my place!. Anyway, I rang the embassy twice before I went to Dublin, to make sure that I had all the documents. And of course when I finally met the lovely German lady, she said that I would need more documents and that I had to come back in person!! I told her I just drove up form Cork and that I had to take a day offwork...and I must say I was surprised when she suggested that he would accept a fax for the moment. So as you can imagine I had to call 3 different people (my wife, my employer and my neighbour) to get them to fax all the documents...which they did!
After receipt of the docuemnts the lovely German lady found out that I would still need a "more recent" than a week old copy of my bank statements and that I would have to purchase a ticket and a travel insurance before they can issue the visa. All this because I told them that I need the visa for business purposes. She told me that although 'm married to an irish citizen, I have to apply for a normal visit visa. Be careful everybody: If you travel with your spouse or tell them at least that you're going to do it, you can save yourself the hassel of supplying all the documents. But if you decide to tracel on your own, you must give them a proof of everything, You even have to fill in a 3 page form confirming that you are not a terrorist and that you're not planning to become one, once you cross the holy German border. I also had to promise that I'm not going to leave my wife, my child, my house and my job behind me in Ireland!
A few days later, I rang the embassy to inquire about the status of my visa and of course I was interviewed again. They wanted to know if I had family and friends in Germany. I said YES and what a mistake that was! They wanted of course to know who they are and suggested that they should send me an invitation. I don't know how, but I manged to talk her out of this and she finally said that everything is looking alright and that I should be getting a visa in the nxt few days. I was hoping of course for a 6 months to 1 year visa, but , I only got 3 months. What a bunch of burocratic d..heads!
I don't belive I have to go through all this again! I feel like telling my employer, that I don't want to go to Europe anymore....Aggh!

K.

[scrudu]

I can empathise with your situation having been through the beauocracy of the German embassy before! That said, your experience sounds WAY worse than ours! I guess because you applied for a Business Visa! Just one note: If you say on your application that you are being accompanied by your spouse, they write this as a stipulation on your visa!

My husband's (non-EU) visa stated "must be accompanied by EU citizen" so I imagine you would get into difficulties with the German immigration police if you were to arrive without your spouse!

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

You rights of free travel on the basis of being a spouse or family member of an EU citizen are dependent on your doing it (the travel) with them, and typically not in their country of citizenship (except when they are coming back from exercising their treaty rights in another EU country).