Urgent!! Non-EU spouse Treaty Rights Application dilemma

[walrusgumble]

2. Secondly they asked for further proof of residence, they initially submitted original utility bills and rental contracts ((both in their names)) but the INIS insist on a letter from the private residential board- dont know what that is.

No proof of residence is mentioned in the directive. None, it's simply not there.

Well on second thoughts, it might be there a little bit, since Ireland doesn't have a registration system.

t

he registration certificate or, in the absence of a registration system, any other proof of residence in the host Member State of the Union citizen whom they are accompanying or joining;

Why make a statement to which you pretty much contradict your self later? The documents requested will pretty much do the job of a registration system

[walrusgumble]

one proof of residence is sufficient. A bill suffice the requirements of residence

Yep, someone with sense. THis should be sufficient

But, if you can, best provide a bill, lease, and letter from landlord. When you get PRTB letter then send it in.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

Why make a statement to which you pretty much contradict your self later? The documents requested will pretty much do the job of a registration system

At the time I hadn't appreciated that Ireland did not not transpose article 8 so edited the post I'd made.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

Ireland does not have a registration system for EU nationals, so what should we make of article 10 2.c?

(c) the registration certificate or, in the absence of a registration system, any other proof of residence in the host Member State of the Union citizen whom they are accompanying or joining;

Well, given that a registration certificate would be one way to prove residence, by analogy the same means of proof specified in article 8.3 would be one way of doing so.

3. For the registration certificate to be issued, Member States may only require that
– Union citizens to whom point (a) of Article 7(1) applies present a valid identity card or passport, a confirmation of engagement from the employer or a certificate of employment, or proof that they are self-employed persons;
– Union citizens to whom point (b) of Article 7(1) applies present a valid identity card or passport and provide proof that they satisfy the conditions laid down therein;
– Union citizens to whom point (c) of Article 7(1) applies present a valid identity card or passport, provide proof of enrolment at an accredited establishment and of comprehensive sickness insurance cover and the declaration or equivalent means referred to in point (c) of Article 7(1). Member States may not require this declaration to refer to any specific amount of resources.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

NExt time, do your own research

I appreciate the links, thank you very much. I was indeed aware of them. Having re-read them, they appear to support my position.

[EUspouse82]

3. And the most intriguing issue is she applied in March and was sent an acknowledgement letter confirming the reciept of the application on 23rd of march 2012. The assumption is that the six months application period will expire in September 2012 but they wrote to her that the application period expires in October 2012 which is 7 months from date of application. Is this legal?

You failed to provide FULL documents actually required, hence the month delay[/quote]

Is that enshrined in the EU directive for freedom of movement? Do they start calculating the application period on receiving the application and documentation or they wait till ALL the documents they want are supplied?

The applicant provided documents with the application and INIS acknowledged the application was received on the 23rd of March. If we follow your logic, all the FULL documents i.e PTRB, Tax certificate have not yet been supplied so why no further delays? I personally feel it was an error on the part of INIS as they probably got their dates wrong.

Anyway to update the forum, My friend and her spouse are currently renting from the local council and the council said that they are obviously not required to register with the PTRB and she has also sent the Tax certificate, they are currently waiting for feedback from INIS.

Thanks for all your inputs.

[walrusgumble]

NExt time, do your own research

I appreciate the links, thank you very much. I was indeed aware of them. Having re-read them, they appear to support my position.

no they don't

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

no they don't

You are more than entitled to your opinion, but if one takes the time to read the documents you kindly gave the links to they quite clearly support the position I have already outlined. So much so in fact that I can only presume you are joking when you say they don't.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

Is that enshrined in the EU directive for freedom of movement? Do they start calculating the application period on receiving the application and documentation or they wait till ALL the documents they want are supplied?

Six months from date of valid application being made. Clearly the application is valid provided the documents specified in the directive are supplied.

[walrusgumble]

no they don't

You are more than entitled to your opinion, but if one takes the time to read the documents you kindly gave the links to they quite clearly support the position I have already outlined. So much so in fact that I can only presume you are joking when you say they don't.

It is not a question of being an opinion, it is a question of whether your correct or not. You are incorrect in your statement.

The document (report) primarily deals with the time you come into the country , intitially. It also only concerns proof of relationship. The extra documents (in your mind) that I have mentioned concern proof that the EU person is actually exercising their Treaty Rights as per Article 7 of the Directive. I have already explained what documents suffice and why they are asked for. It is no way undermines the Directive, and you have no evidence from the reports that supports your view

Now, stop acting like an amateur and refrain from incorrectly advising people, or just go and challenge the requirements if you are so certain.

Also, learn to read, the reports that I provided don't support your argument that the documents you have in mind are excessive. I even explained why.

Proof of relationship (which the report on Irish legislation discusses) and proof of exercising treaty rights are two different things. Every country requires evidence of both



Actually, enlighten us, as to why your correct. Provide the specific statement from evidence provided to support your argument, and what specific documents , which the department require, is excessive.

Sounds like someone is protesting far too much about documents that any genuine couple could provide, if they are staying for longer than 3 months.

[EUspouse82]

Thanks for all the comments.

My friend notified me today that her application has been fully accepted and like EUSmile rightly mentioned, INIS wrote to her and acknowledged their error in the dates and this has been rectified.

I will implore posters to ignore certain folks who go around giving false information about other people's cases. For instance a certain poster on this thread maliciously said that the application period commences when INIS gets all the documents they ask for. That is not true, the application period starts when you send in your application with 3 things- however basic as long as they are genuine.

. Proof of relationship with the EU citizen i.e Marriage Cert

. Proof of employment activities of the EU national i.e Payslips

. Proof of address i.e Utility bills

If INIS decides that they want further documentation in support of your application or they are not satisfied with the evidence produced early on, this does not affect the application period in any way.

Good luck to all

[walrusgumble]

Thanks for all the comments.

My friend notified me today that her application has been fully accepted and like EUSmile rightly mentioned, INIS wrote to her and acknowledged their error in the dates and this has been rectified.

I will implore posters to ignore certain folks who go around giving false information about other people's cases. For instance a certain poster on this thread maliciously said that the application period commences when INIS gets all the documents they ask for. That is not true, the application period starts when you send in your application with 3 things- however basic as long as they are genuine.

. Proof of relationship with the EU citizen i.e Marriage Cert

. Proof of employment activities of the EU national i.e Payslips

. Proof of address i.e Utility bills

If INIS decides that they want further documentation in support of your application or they are not satisfied with the evidence produced early on, this does not affect the application period in any way.

Good luck to all

If your going to make accusations make sure you get them right

There is nothing in my posts that stated that the department was correct to refuse your friends application on sole ground of failure to provide one document ie PRTB. I in fact pointed out that that would be wrong. (especially if you provide utility bills)

Secondly, the check list on the EU form provides what is needed. All I said was, whatever that is on the check list, is legitimate and explained why its needed. EU stupidly tried it on , and made no point.

You should learn to read and also learn the dictionary meaning of the word "maliciously". There was no bad faith intended in the suggestions given.


Your comment - "For instance a certain poster on this thread maliciously said that the application period commences when INIS gets all the documents they ask for. That is not true, the application period starts when you send in your application with 3 things- however basic as long as they are genuine."

The application period starts when you send in the three things. Yes you are correct. I never said anything else. These three things are provided on the Application form. Proof of residency entails utility bills and PRTB letter (naturally, that latter takes time to get)


Your pal attempted to challenge the validity of the contents of the documents required by EU form. He did so without any support and ridiculously assumed that proof of residency and proof of exercising treaty rights are the same.

If your too uneducated to understand what has been put to you, refrain from making unfair comments!

[EUspouse82]

Thanks for all the comments.

My friend notified me today that her application has been fully accepted and like EUSmile rightly mentioned, INIS wrote to her and acknowledged their error in the dates and this has been rectified.

I will implore posters to ignore certain folks who go around giving false information about other people's cases. For instance a certain poster on this thread maliciously said that the application period commences when INIS gets all the documents they ask for. That is not true, the application period starts when you send in your application with 3 things- however basic as long as they are genuine.

. Proof of relationship with the EU citizen i.e Marriage Cert

. Proof of employment activities of the EU national i.e Payslips

. Proof of address i.e Utility bills

If INIS decides that they want further documentation in support of your application or they are not satisfied with the evidence produced early on, this does not affect the application period in any way.

Good luck to all

If your going to make accusations make sure you get them right

There is nothing in my posts that stated that the department was correct to refuse your friends application on sole ground of failure to provide one document ie PRTB. I in fact pointed out that that would be wrong. (especially if you provide utility bills)

Secondly, the check list on the EU form provides what is needed. All I said was, whatever that is on the check list, is legitimate and explained why its needed. EU stupidly tried it on , and made no point.

You should learn to read and also learn the dictionary meaning of the word "maliciously". There was no bad faith intended in the suggestions given.


Your comment - "For instance a certain poster on this thread maliciously said that the application period commences when INIS gets all the documents they ask for. That is not true, the application period starts when you send in your application with 3 things- however basic as long as they are genuine."

The application period starts when you send in the three things. Yes you are correct. I never said anything else. These three things are provided on the Application form. Proof of residency entails utility bills and PRTB letter (naturally, that latter takes time to get)


Your pal attempted to challenge the validity of the contents of the documents required by EU form. He did so without any support and ridiculously assumed that proof of residency and proof of exercising treaty rights are the same.

If your too uneducated to understand what has been put to you, refrain from making unfair comments!

You can be defensive all you want , it doesn't bother me and I will definitely would not trade words with you. Go on with your keyboard warrior attitude while others move on with their lives. It is kind of ironic to accuse me of been uneducated, perhaps you should please have another read of your post and see if it is representative of someone who has any rudimentary understanding of what they are talking about.

I asked you a question at the beginning of the thread and this was your response below:

3. And the most intriguing issue is she applied in March and was sent an acknowledgement letter confirming the reciept of the application on 23rd of march 2012. The assumption is that the six months application period will expire in September 2012 but they wrote to her that the application period expires in October 2012 which is 7 months from date of application. Is this legal?

You failed to provide FULL documents actually required, hence the month delay[/quote]


Like I said earlier, I don't want to exchange any words with you or even debate with you. When I started this thread I prayed you wont start your rude, vile and baseless rant on the thread, unfortunately my prayer was not answered. As I said in a previous post, the case has now been resolved and your BS about a month delay turned out to be the crap it was. Good luck to you.

[walrusgumble]

You can be defensive all you want , it doesn't bother me and I will definitely would not trade words with you.

Not being defensive. Pointing out that you seem to persist in making some really stupid comments , inaccurate comments.

You would be exposed as a spoofer in front of your girlfriend, chief regarding "trade" words with me. You can't even get your facts or basis in order.

You can't even counter argue any comment, because you know that your in the wrong here.

Go on with your keyboard warrior attitude while others move on with their lives. It is kind of ironic to accuse me of been uneducated, perhaps you should please have another read of your post and see if it is representative of someone who has any rudimentary understanding of what they are talking about.

Not even the people who have problems with my posts could credibly suggest that I don't know what I am talking about.

You have attempted to "trade" words quite a few times with me. You Lost, you probably should give up, especially as you can't discuss or rebut comments without dishonestly misinterpreting what was said, making comments without ANY actual legitimate supporting evidence and getting pissy by making accusations of xenophobia. (That is you being defensive)

I asked you a question at the beginning of the thread and this was your response below:

3. And the most intriguing issue is she applied in March and was sent an acknowledgement letter confirming the reciept of the application on 23rd of march 2012. The assumption is that the six months application period will expire in September 2012 but they wrote to her that the application period expires in October 2012 which is 7 months from date of application. Is this legal?

You failed to provide FULL documents actually required, hence the month delay

[/QUOTE]

It is legal if you failed to provide documents required for the application as set out in the check list on the application form (bar the PRTB letter -which on several occasions I pointed this out)

Failure to provide documents as permitted by the Directive

(I don't know what actual documents were actually provided , ye did not say)

Oh, if you bothered to read the last post as oppose to dismissing it (which you are doing, because you know that you are in the wrong) I have already stated this.

Like I said earlier, I don't want to exchange any words with you or even debate with you.

Your beneath me. You can't be honest in dealing with posters, your not worth it.

When I started this thread I prayed you wont start your rude, vile and baseless rant on the thread,

Baseless? Baseless? Eh, I have provided documents from the EU Institutions - which you are incapable of reading and interpreting correctly

unfortunately my prayer was not answered. As I said in a previous post, the case has now been resolved and your BS about a month delay turned out to be the crap it was. Good luck to you.

You did not provide the facts as to what documents you provided in the first place!

Also the "discussion" centered around your questioning of whether the documents required where excessive as oppose to the reasoning behind the department's stance

You cited legislation that concerns a couple ENTERING THE STATE or Living in the State ,where proof of Relationship is required, as oppose to proof of one exercising Treaty Rights. (Thus the requirement for other documents, for the latter, and not for the former - If it was the former, then your correct)

[EUspouse82]

Rambling! Incoherent, Disjointed, Muddled up Post.

My original post was based on three key questions ( Go and calmly read it again). On the third question, I asked why it is taking an extra month for INIS to deal with the applicant's case ( 7 months as opposed to 6) and you said the delay was because she failed to produce ALL the required documents! of course as usual you were incorrect! INIS has rectified the error and is now going to issued in 6 months after application.

[walrusgumble]

Rambling! Incoherent, Disjointed, Muddled up Post.

It is pretty clear acutally. You had no difficulty in understanding what was said prior to your last post. Only now, when you don't have a smart alec answer in order to respond.

I took your arguments regarding the directive as a stand alone , regarding your argument as to what can and cannot be asked for

In other words, this is the nearest that your going to acknowledge that you are incorrect to state that the documents are per the application form are in breach of the directive.


Despite the fact that in my first post, I clearly excluded the PRTB letter as "full documents". Considering your asking that the full post is read, sadly, you replied complaining and accusing me for saying that the PRTB letter is needed and without it, the department can delay. Your some boyo! In response I again point out that I excluded the comment, however, with bluster and gas, you dismiss it as being defensive and as some how I made an error. You did sham not me.

You were invited to point out from the Commission Guidelines, a very important and RELEVANT document, what grounds supported your argument that the documents as per the application form were excessive in proof of relationship v proof of exercise of Treaty Rights. You never bothered.

My original post was based on three key questions ( Go and calmly read it again). On the third question, I asked why it is taking an extra month for INIS to deal with the applicant's case ( 7 months as opposed to 6) and you said the delay was because she failed to produce ALL the required documents! of course as usual you were incorrect! INIS has rectified the error and is now going to issued in 6 months after application.

You never explained what documents you provided in the first place, nor did you explain what documents that they were claiming that you failed to provide. This tends to be the common and legitimate reason for delay . It seems that you did provide all the documents as required and they were incorrect.

Either way, it seems that this administrative mistake has nothing to do with the Article provisions that you quoted, as they were not in dispute.

[EUspouse82]

Rambling! Incoherent, Disjointed, Muddled up Post.

It is pretty clear acutally. You had no difficulty in understanding what was said prior to your last post. Only now, when you don't have a smart alec answer in order to respond.

I took your arguments regarding the directive as a stand alone , regarding your argument as to what can and cannot be asked for

In other words, this is the nearest that your going to acknowledge that you are incorrect to state that the documents are per the application form are in breach of the directive.


Despite the fact that in my first post, I clearly excluded the PRTB letter as "full documents". Considering your asking that the full post is read, sadly, you replied complaining and accusing me for saying that the PRTB letter is needed and without it, the department can delay. Your some boyo! In response I again point out that I excluded the comment, however, with bluster and gas, you dismiss it as being defensive and as some how I made an error. You did sham not me.

You were invited to point out from the Commission Guidelines, a very important and RELEVANT document, what grounds supported your argument that the documents as per the application form were excessive in proof of relationship v proof of exercise of Treaty Rights. You never bothered.

My original post was based on three key questions ( Go and calmly read it again). On the third question, I asked why it is taking an extra month for INIS to deal with the applicant's case ( 7 months as opposed to 6) and you said the delay was because she failed to produce ALL the required documents! of course as usual you were incorrect! INIS has rectified the error and is now going to issued in 6 months after application.

You never explained what documents you provided in the first place, nor did you explain what documents that they were claiming that you failed to provide. This tends to be the common and legitimate reason for delay . It seems that you did provide all the documents as required and they were incorrect.

Either way, it seems that this administrative mistake has nothing to do with the Article provisions that you quoted, as they were not in dispute.

I think you have mistaken me for another poster Walrus. You need to urgently sort out that habit that is silently destroying you. As I have said on a number of occasions during our exchange, you are very quick to write without thinking or reading posts properly.

I did not personally reply to any of your daft comments on this particular thread. Go and calmly go through it again before replying on impulse.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

Actually, enlighten us, as to why your correct. Provide the specific statement from evidence provided to support your argument...

In general, I've enjoyed your posts, they can be quite entertaining at times.

To be honest, this is really boring now, but to humour your good self

Article 10 is a detailed article addressing the issue of residence cards to family members of a Union
citizen who are not themselves Union citizens. This has been incorrectly transposed by the Irish
Regulations, because Schedule 2 to the Regulations requires more documentation than is authorised by
Article 10(2) of the Directive. Article 10(2) of the Directive, read in conjunction with Recital 14 to the
Directive, establishes the maximum that Member States may require of the persons concerned with a
view to recognising their right of residence. Case-law of the Court has repeatedly confirmed that the
right of third country family members of a Union citizen to enter the territory of the Member States
and to reside there with the Union citizen derives under Community law from the family ties alone.
The documents, laid down in Article 10(2) of the Directive in an exhaustive way, attest exactly to the
identity of the family member, his or her family links with the Union citizen and the Union citizens
right to reside in the host Member State. In contrast to that, Article 7(1)(b) of the Regulations and
Schedule 2, to which this provision refers, obliges third country family members to inform the Irish
authorities about particulars which go beyond of what is foreseen in the Directive but also to submit
documents necessary to support such particulars.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

Ireland does not have a registration system for EU nationals, so what should we make of article 10 2.c?

(c) the registration certificate or, in the absence of a registration system, any other proof of residence in the host Member State of the Union citizen whom they are accompanying or joining;

Well, given that a registration certificate would be one way to prove residence, by analogy the same means of proof specified in article 8.3 would be one way of doing so.

3. For the registration certificate to be issued, Member States may only require that
– Union citizens to whom point (a) of Article 7(1) applies present a valid identity card or passport, a confirmation of engagement from the employer or a certificate of employment, or proof that they are self-employed persons;
– Union citizens to whom point (b) of Article 7(1) applies present a valid identity card or passport and provide proof that they satisfy the conditions laid down therein;
– Union citizens to whom point (c) of Article 7(1) applies present a valid identity card or passport, provide proof of enrolment at an accredited establishment and of comprehensive sickness insurance cover and the declaration or equivalent means referred to in point (c) of Article 7(1). Member States may not require this declaration to refer to any specific amount of resources.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

Thanks for all the comments.

My friend notified me today that her application has been fully accepted and like EUSmile rightly mentioned, INIS wrote to her and acknowledged their error in the dates and this has been rectified.

I will implore posters to ignore certain folks who go around giving false information about other people's cases. For instance a certain poster on this thread maliciously said that the application period commences when INIS gets all the documents they ask for. That is not true, the application period starts when you send in your application with 3 things- however basic as long as they are genuine.

. Proof of relationship with the EU citizen i.e Marriage Cert

. Proof of employment activities of the EU national i.e Payslips

. Proof of address i.e Utility bills

If INIS decides that they want further documentation in support of your application or they are not satisfied with the evidence produced early on, this does not affect the application period in any way.

Good luck to all

Great, I hope all goes well for your friend.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

I would consider this statement to be unambiguous.

The list of documents (Article 10(2)) to be presented with the application for a residence card is exhaustive, as confirmed by Recital 14. No additional documents can be requested.

[EUspouse82]

Thanks for all the comments.

My friend notified me today that her application has been fully accepted and like EUSmile rightly mentioned, INIS wrote to her and acknowledged their error in the dates and this has been rectified.

I will implore posters to ignore certain folks who go around giving false information about other people's cases. For instance a certain poster on this thread maliciously said that the application period commences when INIS gets all the documents they ask for. That is not true, the application period starts when you send in your application with 3 things- however basic as long as they are genuine.

. Proof of relationship with the EU citizen i.e Marriage Cert

. Proof of employment activities of the EU national i.e Payslips

. Proof of address i.e Utility bills

If INIS decides that they want further documentation in support of your application or they are not satisfied with the evidence produced early on, this does not affect the application period in any way.

Good luck to all

Great, I hope all goes well for your friend.

Thanks EUSmile, as you rightly envisaged, it was an error by INIS. They have acknowleged it and the application period has been rightly revised to the legal 6 months stipulated by the EU directive. Hope you are well.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

...beyond those required under the directive is a bit disingenuous...

I would say illegal...

On what grounds?

Any clown can provide a "lease" and "letter from Landlord". It is possibly to fake these documents

Granted PRTB letters can not be a ground to refuse an application, but they are useful, along with a few utility bills (ideally in both names- not crucial)

Where is lease or letter from landlord mentioned in the binding directive?

Nowhere!

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

Also, learn to read

Advice one would do well to take on board oneself!

[walrusgumble]

Actually, enlighten us, as to why your correct. Provide the specific statement from evidence provided to support your argument...

In general, I've enjoyed your posts, they can be quite entertaining at times.

To be honest, this is really boring now, but to humour your good self

Article 10 is a detailed article addressing the issue of residence cards to family members of a Union
citizen who are not themselves Union citizens. This has been incorrectly transposed by the Irish
Regulations, because Schedule 2 to the Regulations requires more documentation than is authorised by
Article 10(2) of the Directive. Article 10(2) of the Directive, read in conjunction with Recital 14 to the
Directive, establishes the maximum that Member States may require of the persons concerned with a
view to recognising their right of residence. Case-law of the Court has repeatedly confirmed that the
right of third country family members of a Union citizen to enter the territory of the Member States
and to reside there with the Union citizen derives under Community law from the family ties alone.
The documents, laid down in Article 10(2) of the Directive in an exhaustive way, attest exactly to the
identity of the family member, his or her family links with the Union citizen and the Union citizens
right to reside in the host Member State. In contrast to that, Article 7(1)(b) of the Regulations and
Schedule 2, to which this provision refers, obliges third country family members to inform the Irish
authorities about particulars which go beyond of what is foreseen in the Directive but also to submit
documents necessary to support such particulars.

In other words, you can't and won't.

You are incapable of telling the difference between the requirement to

(a) Prove relationship with EU national

(b) prove that EU national is exercising Treaty Rights


Specify the actual documents which are in excess of the Directive (this was asked at least twice) Despite asking you twice you failed to give specific examples of excessive information required. Your mouthing off but not dealing with the questions put to you.





"Case-law of the Court has repeatedly confirmed that the
right of third country family members of a Union citizen to enter the territory of the Member States
and to reside there with the Union citizen derives under Community law from the family ties alone."


Really, that is actually on the presumption that after the 3 month free period, the EU citizen actually exercises her treaty rights

Most of the case law concerned a couple entering TOGETHER a host country and availing of the 3 month period.

That is not the case in most Irish cases.

The documents required ask to prove residency together (ie utility bills and or lease) and relationship (marriage cert)

Documents proving that wife is actually exercising treaty rights, thus giving the non eu person a right in the first place (ie letter from employer, payslips, p 60)


Your suggesting that you can't be refused an application for residency to stay after 3 months, if you fail to provide evidence that spouse is exercising treaty rights?

Proof of relationship, we both agree should be easy and minimal (if or when PRTB letter is available provide it.)

So what is the problem? You protest far too much. all of this is easily retrievable if everything is legit (bar the PRTB letter)

What documents as required by the Application form is in breach of Article 10 so. Specify, please