4EUFam and EU wide travel - the complete guide

[ca.funke]

Hi arski,

I hope your question is: "I have the 4EUFam card based on (whatever except marriage), and would like to travel with it". Otherwise - sorry!

I hope the answer is as easy as I think:

Although it makes it easier, you´re legally not obliged to have the marriage-certificate with you:

Family members who are not nationals of a Member State
shall only be required to have an entry visa in accordance with
Regulation (EC) No 539/2001 or, where appropriate, with
national law. For the purposes of this Directive, possession of
the valid residence card referred to in Article 10 shall exempt
such family members from the visa requirement.

As a summary, once you have the 4EUFam card, you should be safe!

Another way to look at it:

You can have "the "bunch" of papers (passports, marriage cert, backup documents, joint bank account, photos etc...) with you. This will always qualify you. If needs be, the border official is allowed to check "the bunch" and establish himself that you´re entitled.

The only thing 4EUFam essentially does is: Combine "the bunch" into a card that implies "entitlement checked and certified".

Once you have this certification (=4EUFam) you can´t be obliged to carry "the bunch" with you anymore.

Hope that´s clear?

Thx & rgds, Christian

[arski]

Hey Christian,

Thanks a lot for your reply. Yes, my question was indeed that - my girlfriend has a EUFam card (I'm a EU national) that she got through the de facto thing..

Now I understand that in a perfect world your answer would clearly be correct, but, as seen from many previous emails, most embassies seem to require a marriage certificate present, and even if they perhaps legally shouldn't or couldn't require it.. I have very big concerns that the border officials would hardly know all the details and would cause a lot of problems for her to get into a EU country..

So that's why I'm asking, because most summaries in this thread seem to indicate that the officials want (legally or not) to see the marriage certificate with the EUFam card..

Cheers

[ca.funke]

...most embassies seem to require a marriage certificate...

What embassies?

Once you have the 4EUFam, you don´t need to go to any embassy... Just travel.

Or did you mean that they advise to take it? That´s just backup "nice to have" but not necessary.

Just take the 4EUFam, both passports and travel.

In reality I´d also take a copy of 2004/38/EC with me, just to make sure...

...and, depending on how worried you are that you´ll be sent back on the same plane, just linger before the passport-check (coffee or sthg) until the plane is gone... This will buy you discussion time, in the worst case scenario. (I successfully did this in Düsseldorf )

Happy travels...

[arski]

Hey again,

what I was referring to by "embassies" were the answers obtained by the experiment performed throughout this post, e.g. as in http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewto ... 708#392708 - as you can see they state that a marriage certificate is required (and this is the case for many many other countries as well). Not quite sure why you seem to be confused by my questions, they're a direct follow up to this whole thread :(

Either way I understand that I shouldn't be required anything other than the GNIB card, but the main word there is "shouldn't".. so I was just wondering if anybody has asked the embassies about people who have the EUFam card, but are not married.

Cheers

[Xanadu]

Hi CA.FUNKE, BEN, Directive/2004/38/EC et al... just to refresh : I am an Indian living with my Irish wife and Irish son in Ireland. I just wrote to the Dutch embassy in Dublin asking whether I can travel to Amsterdam without a visa. The answer was in the -ve, they quoted EU Directive 2004/38/EC stating that this is only for EEA nationals excersising their treaty rights in a EU country which is not a country of their origin. Is that right - I couldn't find those words anywhere.
thanks

[acme4242]

Hi CA.FUNKE, BEN, Directive/2004/38/EC et al... just to refresh : I am an Indian living with my Irish wife and Irish son in Ireland. I just wrote to the Dutch embassy in Dublin asking whether I can travel to Amsterdam without a visa. The answer was in the -ve, they quoted EU Directive 2004/38/EC stating that this is only for EEA nationals excersising their treaty rights in a EU country which is not a country of their origin. Is that right - I couldn't find those words anywhere.
thanks

The family members of EU citizens, or Irish citizens who have returned to Ireland after working in another EU state obtain a 4EUfam card


This card exempts the holder from all other EU visas and Irish re-entry visa.

But if you are the family member of an Irish Citizen and you only
have a stamp-4 "spouse of Irish Citizen" resident permit in your passport
Then you need both Schengen visa and a second Irish visa, even you are
already Irish resident with a resident permit.

I know its crazy, but such is Ireland and its Justice and Equality.

[archigabe]

Has anyone any experience traveling to small principalities/territories like Isle of Man, Guernsey, Jersey with Stamp4 EU fam? Please update thread if you have,
Thanks,

[Xanadu]

Isle of Man (I have loved there for a while) - you don't need any visit visa if you are residing in the common economic area of Ireland, NI, Britain... so I can travel with just my STAMP4, there is no immigration at the airport as all flights are 'domestic'. The other places the entry clearance is the same as UK - i.e., EUFam should work (I need a UK visit or EEA FP to visit Jersey). Hope that helps

[Xanadu]

Thanks acme4242 - so no quick last minute trips over long weekends to the continent for the family then
I suppose getting a visa wouldnt be such a hassle, but the fact that you have to go in person (and some of them need appointments like Spain) to Dublin during a working makes it a bit tricky logistically for us as we live far away from Dublin.

Does anybody have any idea if any of the EU countries accept visa applications by post ?

Cheers

[fatty patty]

Read here that for Schengen visas there are bio-metrics requirements in place

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_Information_System

[GAWN]

Hi everybody,

does anybody have experience travelling with a Stamp4 EUFam card to an EU country but transiting at a French airport?

We're going to Germany returning from a trip to Asia, and we'll have to change planes in Paris Airport which will thus be the point were we enter the Schengen area. I'm a German citizen, my wife is Burmese but holds an Irish Stamp 4 EUFam card.

The German Embassy has confirmed: no visa required. And, very friendly, provided us with an official letter with their letterhead, confirming this in English, refering to the EU directive and applicable laws.
Having read about France's problematic position I enquirea at the french Embassy quoting in detail the German letter. The French visa officer replied:
"France doesn't recognize the "Convention 2004" your wife still needs a visa in order to travel to France or through France, even if you plan to travel with her. Due to her nationality the process will take from 2 to 3 weeks."

I guess the guy is simply incompetent - but how are such cases handled by the French imigration? Any experiences?

The Airline (Air France/Sky Team) says that in this specific constellation no visa is required for transit in Paris if the traveller is holding a

"family member residence permit issued by Ireland (Rep. of) to a family member of an EEA national, provided travelling with or travelling to join the EEA national or national of Switzerland"

This is also the information given to all check-in agents worldwide, so the problem will definitely only occur in Paris...

[ca.funke]

Hi GAWN,

welcome to the forum

Hi everybody,

does anybody have experience travelling with a Stamp4 EUFam card to an EU country but transiting at a French airport?

Not through an airport, but arriving by boat in Cherbourg:
http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewto ... 693#236693

We're going to Germany returning from a trip to Asia, and we'll have to change planes in Paris Airport which will thus be the point were we enter the Schengen area.

Where you go to doesn´t matter in detail. What matters is -as you say- that you enter the Schengen-zone, and this you do in France.

I'm a German citizen, my wife is Burmese but holds an Irish Stamp 4 EUFam card.

You´re allowed to enter all of the EU (as per this very thread):
http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=30020

The German Embassy has confirmed: no visa required. And, very friendly, provided us with an official letter with their letterhead, confirming this in English, refering to the EU directive and applicable laws.

I wish I would have had only one positive encounter with German embassies. Very nice!

Having read about France's problematic position I enquirea at the french Embassy quoting in detail the German letter. The French visa officer replied:
"France doesn't recognize the "Convention 2004" your wife still needs a visa in order to travel to France or through France, even if you plan to travel with her. Due to her nationality the process will take from 2 to 3 weeks."

I guess the guy is simply incompetent - but how are such cases handled by the French imigration? Any experiences?

Some idiot who has no idea about the law under which he has to work. Calling the "Directive" a "Convention" shows that he has no clue. Just ignore the guy, not worth fighting against incompetence.

The Airline (Air France/Sky Team) says that in this specific constellation no visa is required for transit in Paris if the traveller is holding a

"family member residence permit issued by Ireland (Rep. of) to a family member of an EEA national, provided travelling with or travelling to join the EEA national or national of Switzerland"

This is also the information given to all check-in agents worldwide, so the problem will definitely only occur in Paris...

That´s perfect, because at least you won´t be denied boarding.

Once in Paris you will have anough time to ask for superior(s) and their superiors, until you end up with someone competent who will overrule any immigration-guy who may want to deny you entry...

Make sure to take as many of the papers of this >>practical guide<< as you can!

Good luck

[GAWN]

Thanks, that's encouraging. By the way, from an airline guy I got the clue where to get the information the check-in people base their decision on - TIMATIC:

Timatic is the database containing cross border passenger documentation requirements. It is used by airlines to determine whether a passenger can be carried, as well as by airlines and travel agents to provide this information to travellers at the time of booking. This is critical for airlines due to fines levied by immigration authorities every time a passenger is carried who does not have the correct travel documentation.

You can access it through the web-pages of many Airlines, such as here:

http://www.skyteam.com/en/your-trip/Ser ... nd-Health/
or here:
http://www.staralliance.com/de/services ... nd-health/

enter your data and print out the written confirmation that they can carry you/your family member without a visa... that should convince the least informed check-in agent.

Best wishes...

[ca.funke]

...TIMATIC...

Doesn´t always give the -legally- correct answer.

For Schengen it is correct, in most cases (actually I can´t find a wrong info right now, maybe it´s all correct now ).

>>For the UK<< it´s giving the UK-interpretation that family-members are not exempt (by not mentioning anything about it).

>>For Ireland<< it just recently changed, and ""family member" residence permit issued by (member state)" are now mentioned.

For >>your case<< it is correctly quoting, that you may travel without visa.

So I think you´ll manage to arrive...

Please do provide feedback about how it went

Have a safe trip

[usamuchi]

Dear Mr ca.funke,
I am amazed by the effort you put in 2008 into explaining to EU embassies that the spouse of EU( EEA??) citizen does not need a visa to travel to an EU country , especially if she is traveling with her husband .

I have been searching the web and i only found answers in your previous post dated 2008 .

I am married to EU citizen from Lithuania and we have a child .We live in the UK and i hold EEA family permit/card issued by UK home office .

Until today , i am still suffering from the same problem of visas especially with the new laws that came into place in some EU countries if not all , which states that if you want to apply for Schengen visa , your passport must not be more than 10 years old , even if it is still valid . SOme countries , renew the same passport rather than issuing new one .

I just wanted to know if anything has changes with the awarness that people like us do not need visa or it is still the same .

Which countries has finally applied this law of visa free for EU/EEA spouses.

Finally , Is EU and EEA law the same regarding this VISA matter ?

Kind regards

[adeel_x2004]

I am an eu citizen and married to a non eu .. as we applied for his residence card on 10th august and got back a letter after a week asking for more documents.
as we provided all the documents asked on the form EU1 , except Prtb letter,
So in the first application we sent all the documents what we asked for except prtb... but when we got a letter back from INIS they asked me to provide three things ....

* Provide more satisfactory evidence of relationship (that you relationship has been in existence for at least two years) such as , joint bank accounts, joint utility bills, joint lease agreement, photos etc.

* they asked me to provide a letter from my employer saying that my job is not a temporary job and i am working there permanently , as in the first letter i got from my employer he didnt mention whether the job is permanent or temporary ...

* PRTB letter on both names.

So ;

I accept for PRTB and my about my employer letter.

But about satisfactory evidence of relationship which is in existence for atleast two years , what is this ?

as we sent joint lease agreement in the first application and marriage certificate itself , like we didnt apply under de facto we applied under spouse of EU...

(WE MET IN JAN 2010 , I GOT PREGNANT MARCH 2010 AND BABY WAS BORN DECEMBER 2010, WE GOT MARRIED MAY 2011 , that much happend in all this time but still these arnt two years , so we dont have any thing joint atleast two years old)

we dont have joint accounts , we dont have cinemas ticekts as we have been going to cinemas but who keeps cinema tickets and there are no names on cinema tickets , and we havnt traveled outside ireland together so we dont have any travel tickets .. what we have , our pictures , house lease the last one and the new one , and we have a our baby's birth cert ..

NOW WE HAVE GOT PRTB LETTERS.

QUESTION 1 -
I HAVE FOUND ANOTHER JOB ITS PERMANENT BUT THE CONTRACT IS CASUAL , I HAVE BEEN WORKING THERE FOR A MONTH 45 TO 52 HRS A WEEK. ITS JUST WRITTEN ON MY CONTRACT , CASUAL
I DONT KNOW IF THIS IS ANY PROBLEM IN INIS FOR HAVING A CASUAL JOB ?

QUESTION 2 -
AND I WILL SEND THEM MY OLD HOUSE LEASE ON ME AND MY HUSBAND'S NAME , OUR PHOTOS AND OUR SON BIRTH CERT.
WHAT YOU SUGGEST ?


It has become very complicated ,

any help would be really appreciated..

Thanks in Advance ...

[EMAB]

This is really helpful and good information about EU travel. Thanks for sharing.

[macie]

hello all.
I would like to know about rights of freedom while travelling with my EU wife. I am holder of Eu4 fam residence card issued by DOJ. I recently travelled to few european countries with my wife. I had to face certain difficulties while entering Belgium (charloei airport), France (paris), Spain (san javier airport) poland (poznan). all I want to know following.

1. Do immigration officers need to stamp passport while entering and leaving country? My passport got stamped in belgium,spain and recently in poznan.

2. Do they need to stamp passport at dublin airport all the times I enter into state?

3. When embassies (like Spain, France) mentioned on their websites visa not required while travelling with eu4fam card and wife, then why immigration officers asked for visa at arrival in those countries?

4. where can I complain against rude Polish immigration officers who totally crossed the limit and misused his powers?

I would be glad if you provide some useful information regarding all above.
Thanks

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

1. Do immigration officers need to stamp passport while entering and leaving country? My passport got stamped in belgium,spain and recently in poznan.

No stamp allowed.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

2. Do they need to stamp passport at dublin airport all the times I enter into state?

No stamp.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

3. When embassies (like Spain, France) mentioned on their websites visa not required while travelling with eu4fam card and wife, then why immigration officers asked for visa at arrival in those countries?

Many article 10 cards differ in form across the EU and perhaps there is some confusion.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

4. where can I complain against rude Polish immigration officers who totally crossed the limit and misused his powers?

Can't really comment without knowing the specifics.

[jeupsy]

Hey Christian,

Thanks a lot for your reply. Yes, my question was indeed that - my girlfriend has a EUFam card (I'm a EU national) that she got through the de facto thing..

Now I understand that in a perfect world your answer would clearly be correct, but, as seen from many previous emails, most embassies seem to require a marriage certificate present, and even if they perhaps legally shouldn't or couldn't require it.. I have very big concerns that the border officials would hardly know all the details and would cause a lot of problems for her to get into a EU country..

So that's why I'm asking, because most summaries in this thread seem to indicate that the officials want (legally or not) to see the marriage certificate with the EUFam card..

Cheers

Hi arski.

Have you indeed tried to travel with your girlfriend based on her de facto Stamp 4 EUFAM?

I would be very curious to know your experience. I should soon be in the same situation and it would be very convenient if my girlfriend didn't have to apply for a visa each time we want to go somewhere (especially since get easy and cheap visas from European countries as this only works for married couples - as far as I know).

[archigabe]

FYI...the french embassy in dublin has some changes with regard to travel to france with Stamp4 EU Fam Card

http://www.ambafrance-ie.org/Can-I-obta ... -dependent


From January 2nd 2012 , following European Convention 2004/38, the foreign spouse or family member of an EU national may enter France without a visa if they are in possession of :

a valid travel document ;
a valid residency permit (GNIB card) with the endorsement "EU Fam" (this endorsement is compulsory in order to be visa exempted) ;
and if they are joining or travelling with the EU national.
If you do not satisfy the above conditions, you will need to apply for a visa to travel to France.


If your valid residency permit (GNIB card) does not show the endorsement "EU Fam", you can obtain a visa as a dependent family member:

1) If you are:

the spouse of an EU citizen
a child under 21 provided you still depends financially on your EU parent
the parents of an EU citizen if and only if your are financially dependent on your European child (proof of dependence must be provided)
the financially dependent child (under 21) or parent of the spouse of an EU citizen. (Proof to be provided)

2) And if you are travelling with or joining the EU citizen


N.B.: If you do not fulfil both those conditions, please see the tourism section.

[marcojr]

Can some1 help me ?

Well, my scenario is really out of usuall scope and after several weeks
googling and googling...I'm giving up and it's time to start to bother
someone Sorry to bother.

Me, 37 years old, experienced software engineer living in Brazil , I
support my whole family and my wife don't need to work because my salary is enough for me, her and our 4 years old son.

And she and my son, both EEA citizens (Hungary) .We want to live in Europe,specially in Ireland because the market of IT is missing ppl with my profile and this will be good to me, my family and for the economy of
Ireland with some how.

However as I said..we live all in Brazil and we are not exercing treaty
rights becase we don't live in europe.Yes, we can move to Ireland, but only my wife will be able to work because she is the EEA citizen, not me.This is bad because she is subject to grab a job from someone that's really need to feed himself.Second objection is: I can easy find a job in any country because I am experienced software engineer.But she never worked anywhere else before and considering the high level of unemployment sounds like something impossible for us.

What we are supposed to do ? Any hint ?

ty in advance !