mentalmind wrote: ↑Sat Jan 08, 2022 8:30 pm
Just wanted to rant about the so called "new" scoreboard for applying for citizenship. Full disclaimer, I applied for citizenship in 2021 and yet to hear about the acknowledgement letter.
I believe ISD is trying to make things more challenging/impossible to get citizenship mainly for people came to Ireland as wife/spouse/family of people that is working/studying here. Because simply they could introduce more challenging rules for application, like increasing 5 year residency rule to 8 years or more, or introducing some sort of exam or naturalisation quiz . But this would scare the people away from coming to Ireland in hope of being Irish citizen and they would lose the sweet tax money they are getting from immigrants.
I believe it is totally absurd/meaningless to collect some papers and letters like you are collecting pokemon cards. Revenue does have records of where you are working, for how long you are working and how much salary you have. So it's meaningless to collect P60 or employment history from Revenue.
Same for showing mortgage/rent agreement (that has RTB record). It shouldn't matter if you have your own house and you are paying mortgage or if your landlord is some shady person that doesn't record your tenancy with RTB, or you are house sharing with 5 other people and you don't have any bill under your name. Eventually you have to prove your up to date address to Garda (or relevant department) each year (or every 2-3 years) when you have to renew your IRP/GNIB card.
It shouldn't matter if bills are under your name or if you pay it with cash or by direct debit. Most of the providers doesn't send paper bills anymore and they disappear from online billing system after 2-3 years. It's stupid that you have to save your online bills every time. Also if you are changing providers regularly (to get best price) then you will lose track of your bills. Yes you can ask them for older bills but again this is stupid. And I won't even mention how worthless are those bills with the new scoreboard rules.
ISD/Irish Government can/does access to your Revenue records, immigration history, border history (to see your enter/exit days) and get in contact with UK for similar matters to see if you did smth nasty on their side. As you can forge/provide false documents, this has to be done to be sure that applicant is not providing false information. So it's meaningless and pointless to provide all same information as paper because these information can be checked easily. Or it simply means that ISD doesn't have access to these information and simply relying on what information you provide.
It is absurd to collect documents in folders that gets dusty and have risk of getting lost or being unreadable over years. Border police can check your immigration history just by typing your registration number on your IRP card and see your whole history just in 30 seconds.
So after the all rant, I just believe this is just to make things harder for immigrants while not letting them lose hope of being Irish citizen by naturalisation. And yes I know there are unusual/edge cases which is not straight and can be difficult but I doubt providing fishing license or TV license proof will solve this.
Some very strange comments here ! Ireland has one of the most ridiculously EASY and liberal criteria , which is no longer justifiable as it is a country that receives more immigration than seeks emigration. It is also at odds with the norms of many countries (5 years is common, but lack of exams are NOT) . Some of the aforementioned nations (not all, obviously) reject Dual Nationality too.
1. RE Potential Future Increase in time needed for Citizenship (which has never been suggested seriously)
If one was minded to go and live in
Algeria , based on your flag your country of Origin, one would have to wait
7 or 8 years, and they must confirm that they understand the customs and traditions of the society ie tests
Germany requires 7 years and undergo exams. Austria demands
10 years . The US demands that you first have PERMENANT RESIDENCY (5 Years) and they demand thorough examinations to prove competence and knowledge of it's history and politics and language . Naturalisation to be Italian requires
10 . Many years Many of the Baltic Nations demand 5-8 years and strenuous exams .
Pakistan is 8 years
Increasing the residency to 8 years is not a bad idea ! Demand for Exams and proof of language (English) competency SHOULD BE A NORM . It is a joke that immigrants are not tested to prove proper assimilation . It is well known that many recipients of Irish naturalisation do not have the greatest of capability to speak English. It is a common joke for court clerks and civil servants.
Bar disbelief and bewilderment , you have not seriously explained why these things are bad ! It will NOT effect one's ability to get residency (which is a minor issue for EU Citizens) or permanent residency . What is an extra 2-3 years , if one is seriously committed to live in Ireland anyway ? It would be extremely hard to deport someone who has lawfully lived in Ireland by his or her 5th Year if they have remained crime free.
2.
But this would scare the people away from coming to Ireland in hope of being Irish citizen and they would lose the sweet tax money they are getting from immigrants.
Most respectively, that is complete nonsense. The majority of Ireland's immigrant population are from within the EU . Many of them actually go back to their country of origin after a few years. They have no need for Citizenship of Ireland.
The Americans , Australians , UK , Canadians and Kiwis won't change their mind about coming to Ireland
if the money is right and they can get visas and work permits. After that, Ireland and most of Europe aren't exactly in a huge rush to attract Non EU nationals (Have a look at the Citizenship requirement of those nations ! Stricter than Ireland in many cases)
Who is it going to scare away ? If they aren't intended to live in Ireland after getting citizenship after 6 years (including the waiting time ) why should they get citizenship? No different for any other country .
Tax? Those minimum wage jobs that the Brazilians and co are going to be scarce for a while as COVID will keep places closed down. Again, provided that the salary is attractive and the worker permit is available, people will still come. THEY Still CAME in numbers during the last recession .
3.
"I believe it is totally absurd/meaningless to collect some papers and letters like you are collecting pokemon cards."
What? Demand that you provide documentary evidence like bank Statements (that can not be faked) and P60s from Revenue to prove that you have lived in Ireland for the majority of 5 years ? Seems a pretty simple thing to do! One does not sound that serious about their application if they haven't at some point shortly after getting residency , find out who one goes about citizenship later.
You are the Applicant, it is for YOU to prove the case , not the civil servants. Also, more importantly, due to GDPR , they (ISD) can not go snooping without your permission. It is not that time consuming to get these documents. MOST PRUDENT people keep a hold of their p60s, payslips and other revenue certs. They are also obtained within days from revenue and the banks will provide statements quickly enough
Like it or not, evidence from employers can be faked, so can utility bills, as seen in the High Court cases involving sham marriages .
4
. "Same for showing mortgage/rent agreement (that has RTB record). It shouldn't matter if you have your own house and you are paying mortgage or if your landlord is some shady person that doesn't record your tenancy with RTB, or you are house sharing with 5 other people and you don't have any bill under your name. "
As noted above; these are the best documents to prove authenticity. Any landlord can and has falsified letters claiming X lives with Y at X address.
PRTB letters make sure all is above board. Landlords are not going to pay €50 odd for each tenant if he is not really letting to them and they can get into trouble if they fail to register all of their tenants via Revenue.
Utility bills are meaningless really because they are not conclusive evidence that one lives at a certain address; in fact, sometimes, when one looks at the units consumed in a given period, they might as more questions than answers.
All due respect, the INIS website was very clear on the documents needed, so , any serious candidate ought to have consulted with that 2-3 years before making the application.
There is case law that highlights that people have failed to reside in Ireland for the required times as they were out of the country a lot (business and pleasure) Note that infamous Jones case.
5. "It shouldn't matter if bills are under your name or if you pay it with cash or by direct debit. Most of the providers doesn't send paper bills anymore and they disappear from online billing system after 2-3 years. "
Wrong ! By law, every service provided MUST publish a receipt. You WILL find these bill statements on their websites when you register your profile on same. ESB/Electric Ireland, Vodafone and Bord Gáis all have websites where the registered user has a profile and you can print out your old statements. Even many of the bin collectors.
It DOES Matter . After a considerable period of time in the country ie 5 years, it is rather difficult to believe that one would have no liabilities under their name bar their mobile phone bill. They are great documents to use to prove continuous residency .
Respectively, you seem to expect that the Department ought to take one's word for it rather then they prove their claim . Your attitude is appalling and devoid of a sense that you are a person who takes responsibility. Whining about potential exams on language , history and politics; whining about the time and effort required to provide mostly EASILY OBTAINABLE documents............
6.
"It is absurd to collect documents in folders that gets dusty and have risk of getting lost or being unreadable over years. Border police can check your immigration history just by typing your registration number on your IRP card and see your whole history just in 30 seconds. "
Scan them and store them online. Oh, would you complain about having to remember the passwords ?
Documents unreadable after 5 years ? It is not that hard to store them in a dry and safe location. I get it that it can be a hassle if you change addresses often, but, life is not suppose to be easy .
I have already addressed the issues with Date Protection. Bottom line, you want to apply for citizenship, it is up to you to prove your claim with documents. NO OTHER NATION WOULD have Civil Servants to do the work for you.
