Treaty rights - have I acquired PR

[piginthewellies]

hi, I am in a similar situation - been in UK since 2002 (came to work in Channel islands - was issued Guernsey work permit for this), I am EU national, been married to BC for 10 years. my problem is that I haven't worked for the past 5 years as I have been stay at home parent (I have received National insurance credits for part of this time). I don't have any private medical insurance and the EHIC card I've got has been issued in UK, not my country of origin as required. In past I have also not worked for continuous 5 years as have been moving between England an Channel islands a lot. Is there any way I can prove I have exercised the Treaty rights? I have been living here for 14 years, have British husband, British children, mortgage, bank accounts etc, it seems so ridiculous I am not considered a permanent resident.

[noajthan]

To avoid confusion & jumbled responses, I have moved your question to its own thread.

[piginthewellies]

noajthan Thank you

[noajthan]

Should be a helpful member along shortly to attend to your query;
stand by

[secret.simon]

To the best of my knowledge, the Channel Islands are a part of the EU for the purposes of free movement of goods, but not a part of the EU for the purposes of immigration or freedom of movement. Indeed, you yourself mentioned that you were "issued Guernsey work permit" for working in Guernsey, which would not have been required for an EU citizen exercising treaty rights

Further reading: http://www.guernseyroyalcourt.gg/articl ... ip-with-EU

Because the Treaties do not apply to any of the Channel Islands for the purposes of free movement of people and therefore you can not exercise treaty rights, I believe that you can not acquire PR while being resident in any of the Channel Islands at all.

However, the Guernsey Immigration Rules are considerably more lenient than the UK Immigration Rules and incorporate some rights for EEA citizens without applying EU law. Sections 257 & 257A may be of interest to you. You as an EEA citizen can acquire the equivalent of ILR in Guernsey by being resident in Guernsey for more than two years and being in a subsisting marriage with a person settled in Guernsey.

You may have acquired PR in the UK if you exercised treaty rights in the UK (not the Channel Islands or Isle of Man) by working or being self-sufficient (with private health insurance) for five continuous years.

I have received National insurance credits for part of this time

On what basis were you given NI Credits? I am not entirely sure you would have been eligible for NI Credits, but my knowledge of the laws and rules surrounding taxation is poor verging on non-existent.

[piginthewellies]

Looks like I have not provided enough info. Timeline looks something like this - 2002, 2003 - Guernsey, 2004 to 2007 - England (this is when I acquired NI number), 2007 to 2009 - Jersey, 2009 to present - England. I left Channel islands for good in 2009, after the birth of my first child. we came back to England and have been settled here since. end of 2009 is when I applied for Child Benefit and started receiving NI credits based on being awarded CB.
Looks like I have to start again from scratch to build up the 5 year record, doesn't it?

[piginthewellies]

oh, another thing - when I first came to Guernsey in 2002, my country had not joined the EU yet (I am from Latvia). does that change anything?

[noajthan]

oh, another thing - when I first came to Guernsey in 2002, my country had not joined the EU yet (I am from Latvia). does that change anything?

Look again at the advice from simon about 2 years to achieve rights in Guernsey.

If that doesn't fly then its back to EU rules as they apply in UK (mainland).
Can you find a 5 year qualifying period, perhaps from 2009?

If you were working then all good; start to collate your evidence.
If you were self sufficient you will, in addition, have needed CSI.

[piginthewellies]

no , I have no rights in Guernsey itself - you have to be married to a local person (not only BC, but locally born), to qualify for anything in Guernsey. and work permits are also tied to living arrangements - besides, the permit I had in the first year was only a 9 month permit with requirement to leave the island for 3 months afterwards, so there is the issue of a 3 month gap in that year. It is done this way deliberately, so you can't stay long term. Channel islands immigration rules are way stricter than mainland UK rules - one of the reasons we left the CI.
And I definitely don't have continuous period of 5 years working in England. and no CSI to cover that period either. I had no idea I needed it, as every EU national living in UK have access to NHS anyway. I was told I could have EHIC card instead, but it would have to be issued in Latvia. this is also impossible, as by Latvian law I am required to inform them about emigrating abroad and they would not issue EHIC card to me since I am considered resident in UK not Latvia.
I suppose, since I am EU citizen, there is no way to qualify through my British husband? that route is only for non EU nationals, isn't it? I am grasping at straws here now

[noajthan]

Unfortunately there's no benefit in immigration terms of being married to a BC.

If a worker you don't need CSI.
If not working then, to be classed as self-sufficient, you need CSI in place.

Sad to say you don't appear to have acquired PR yet.
Strictly speaking you need to CSI to 'legalise' your stay & be exercising treaty rights.

[piginthewellies]

this is so unfair, I want to cry. If I was not from EU, I would qualify purely through Surinder Singh route, it is like I am being punished for being EU national. You could say - fair enough, she needs to contribute, pay tax etc, but It is not always possible to satisfy that requirement of continuous 5 year employment, when raising young children (British children I may add).

[secret.simon]

If I was not from EU, I would qualify purely through Surinder Singh route,

How would you have qualified under SS?

it is like I am being punished for being EU national.

Don't get me started on how privileged EEA citizens are in the UK in terms of immigration law.

Timeline looks something like this - 2002, 2003 - Guernsey, 2004 to 2007 - England (this is when I acquired NI number), 2007 to 2009 - Jersey, 2009 to present - England. I left Channel islands for good in 2009, after the birth of my first child. we came back to England and have been settled here since. end of 2009 is when I applied for Child Benefit and started receiving NI credits based on being awarded CB.
Looks like I have to start again from scratch to build up the 5 year record, doesn't it?

Yes.

You can only have exercised treaty rights after Latvia joined the EU in 2004. So, let's look at your immigration history after that.

Guernsey, 2004 to 2007
England (this is when I acquired NI number), 2007 to 2009
Jersey, 2007 to 2009
UK, 2009 to present

Guernsey and Jersey are both outside the EEA and hence you could not have exercised treaty rights there as you did not have any treaty rights there to start with. And to complicate things further, they are both two separate and distinct jurisdictions and time spent in one likely did not count in the other.

As you spent two years in Jersey, you would have exercised treaty rights between 2007 to 2009 but would not count for the purpose of PR.

And since 2009, you would have acquired PR if you had CSI continuously. Had you been working, any time you had taken off for maternity leave would also have counted for the purpose of exercising treaty rights.

Noajthan had found out that if students had applied for a UK Residence Card before 2011, that could be used to acquire PR without CSI. I am not aware of all the details and not sure if it applies in your case and will wait for him to comment. But you may wish to check if you have a UK Residence Card issued before 2011.

[piginthewellies]

Firstly - sorry if my last post didn't make much sense, I got a bit emotional there, but hey, that's understandable, I think.
Secondly - the thing is CSI is not really advertised at all regards to EU nationals, let's face it - in real life it is not needed as NHS care is provided with or without it. For EU nationals it is only ever needed as a tick in a box (expensive one) - only if you need it as evidence for exercising treaty rights.
I guess,all of this is just crying over spilled milk now. I will have to start again, by the time I have the proof that's needed, I would have lived in UK for 20 years or more. If UK doesn't exit EU, I probably can carry on happily without the citizenship - maybe I should not even bother, I don't know anymore.
Thank you for all your help and advice, at least I know where I stand now and what I need to do

[noajthan]

...

Noajthan had found out that if students had applied for a UK Residence Card before 2011, that could be used to acquire PR without CSI. I am not aware of all the details and not sure if it applies in your case and will wait for him to comment. But you may wish to check if you have a UK Residence Card issued before 2011.

Unfortunately that transitional arrangement only applies to students (& only if the RC was issued to a person on the basis of being a student - in or before 2011; eg a worker's RC would not count).
I can't see that OP in this case has been a student.

[noajthan]

A suggestion.

Don't be overly concerned as noone is going to come knocking at your door but, with all this wild talk of Brexit & what have you, you may wish to purchase some CSI & regularise your position in UK.
CSI will help you show you are a 'self-sufficient' qualified person.

Technically you're not a qualified person (not exercising treaty rights) at the moment;
that is what you should be &should be doing after your initial 3 months 'grace period' in UK.

At the moment, if you happened to come up on someone's radar for some reason you might be invited to leave;
(perish the thought but you never know, a brush with the law; a minor RTA; one of life's little surprises that lets us know we are alive).

[piginthewellies]

You are scaring me now. what about this:
In line with regulation 14 of the Immigration (EEA) Regulations 2006, an EEA national can continue to live
in the UK beyond the initial 3 month period for as long as they are a qualified person, or the family member of a qualified person. is my husband not a qualified person then, being BC?

[noajthan]

You are scaring me now. what about this:
In line with regulation 14 of the Immigration (EEA) Regulations 2006, an EEA national can continue to live
in the UK beyond the initial 3 month period for as long as they are a qualified person, or the family member of a qualified person. is my husband not a qualified person then, being BC?

No intention to scare you at all - forewarned is forearmed don't you think.

And no, your husband is not a qualified person! - as he is British!
He can't exercise treaty rights (normally) as he's not from EU/EEA (ie as per UK law).

See http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2006 ... ion/6/made
& ref 2(1)a:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2006 ... ion/2/made

“EEA national” means a national of an EEA State;
“EEA State” means—
(a) a member State, other than the United Kingdom

We Brits are very low-down in the food chain when it comes to immigration matters, believe me.

Your remedy is simple.
To be classed as self-sufficient & exercising EU treaty rights (to assure your right to reside in UK) you need the financial support of spouse plus CSI.

Same applies if you became a student (get CSI).
if self-employed or working then no need for CSI (as you would be a taxpayer).

[piginthewellies]

so self employed people definitely do not need the CSI? are there other requirements for self employed when it comes to proving PR? is it enough just to pay National insurance, or does income tax needs to be paid too. I could register as self employed (have been thinking about trading goods online), but not sure I would earn enough to have to pay income tax.

[noajthan]

so self employed people definitely do not need the CSI? are there other requirements for self employed when it comes to proving PR? is it enough just to pay National insurance, or does income tax needs to be paid too. I could register as self employed (have been thinking about trading goods online), but not sure I would earn enough to have to pay income tax.

As per EU law, work has to be genuine & effective not just marginal & supplementary.
A bit of eBaying on the side is not going to fly.

HO is, somewhat controversially, playing hard ball and increasingly applying the MET (income/benefits) tests to self-employed EEA workers;
- this is on top of the basic EU law requirements.

Start here to get inside the head of HO caseworker who will weigh up & assess your case:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... _clean.pdf

Re MET see:
https://www.freemovement.org.uk/using-m ... ne-worker/

[piginthewellies]

right, thank you for clarifying that. Looks like I am off to search for CSI quotes and will be getting my CV sorted

[piginthewellies]

P.S. We Brits are very low-down in the food chain when it comes to immigration matters, believe me.
I had not realised before, how bad it actually is regards to this, such a shame - British rules and regulations should be there to support the British not to make it harder for their family members.

[noajthan]

right, thank you for clarifying that. Looks like I am off to search for CSI quotes and will be getting my CV sorted

All part of service.

Best of luck.

[piginthewellies]

Thank you again for all the help

[noajthan]

P.S. We Brits are very low-down in the food chain when it comes to immigration matters, believe me.
I had not realised before, how bad it actually is regards to this, such a shame - British rules and regulations should be there to support the British not to make it harder for their family members.

Even under the older (simpler, quicker) rules it took me 7 or 8+ years to get my (non-EEA) family over to UK & naturalised.
- at great expense: physical, emotional & financial (although that was not a consideration).
Plus two costly and bruising battles fought with HO over visa refusals & other matters that ran for months & months - had to take it to the wire.

In comparison, EU route is a walk in the park. Just do treaty rights. Simples.

[piginthewellies]

Even under the older (simpler, quicker) rules it took me 7 or 8+ years to get my (non-EEA) family over to UK & naturalised.
- at great expense: physical, emotional & financial (although that was not a consideration).
Plus two costly and bruising battles fought with HO over visa refusals & other matters that ran for months & months - had to take it to the wire.

OMG, that is terrible, EU route really is simpler - I feel bad now for moaning It should not be this hard for anyone, who is a genuine a BC family member. I have also read somewhere (don't know if it is true), that it is much easier for an EEA national to bring their non EEA spouse to Britain than for a BC to do it.