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Posted: **Thu Apr 14, 2016 12:28 pm**

Hi All,

Hope you are doing well.

Background: ILR was granted to me, my wife and two children on 02/01/2015. Subsequently my wife got pregnant and we opted for delivery in Pakistan. Third child was born 21/09/2015 who doesn't have any British status (any visa or ILE). My wife and three kids currently reside in Pakistan. I applied for naturalisation 18/01/2016 and got the approval 04/04/2016.

Question: Shortest route for my children's British registration - I have spoken to Home Office and they suggest that all three can apply on MN1 form from Pakistan. When asked about the third child who currently doesn't have any British status they suggested it is exactly the same as the two with ILR but one additional document that needs submitting is my original naturalisation certificate or passport and birth certificate that states I'm his father. Please can you suggest if applying for my children from Pakistan on MN1 form with Home Office's guidance above is correct?

I look forward to help/guidance as soon as possible and thank you in advance for your support.

Let me know in case of any further information.

Thanks.

Posted: **Thu Apr 14, 2016 12:35 pm**

Where were the children who hold ILR born?

Posted: **Thu Apr 14, 2016 12:58 pm**

Both were born in Pakistan, 11/01/2007 and 27/08/2009 respectively. I arrived in the UK on 18/10/2009 on Tier-1 General.

Posted: **Thu Apr 14, 2016 1:12 pm**

ammaralvi wrote:Both were born in Pakistan, 11/01/2007 and 27/08/2009 respectively. I arrived in the UK on 18/10/2009 on Tier-1 General.

Be careful for children who are living abroad & also for any without settled status in UK (no ILR).

See https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... 150402.pdf

Posted: **Thu Apr 14, 2016 1:25 pm**

ammaralvi wrote:Both were born in Pakistan, 11/01/2007 and 27/08/2009 respectively. I arrived in the UK on 18/10/2009 on Tier-1 General.

The cannot apply from Pakistan. They have no entitlement to citizenship if born abroad.

They are required to submit their passports and ILR BRP cards with their applications and enroll biometrics at the Post Office.

Child without visa will have to apply for a child settlement visa to return to the UK if born before you became British. Would have been easier if child was born in the UK as would have been automatically British.

Posted: **Thu Apr 14, 2016 1:31 pm**

CR001 wrote:
ammaralvi wrote:Both were born in Pakistan, 11/01/2007 and 27/08/2009 respectively. I arrived in the UK on 18/10/2009 on Tier-1 General.
The cannot apply from Pakistan. They have no entitlement to citizenship if born abroad.

They are required to submit their passports and ILR BRP cards with their applications and enroll biometrics at the Post Office.

Child without visa will have to apply for a child settlement visa to return to the UK if born before you became British. Would have been easier if child was born in the UK as would have been automatically British.

Thank you very much for your response CR001. However, this is exactly opposite of the information I got from Home Office representative. What clause (https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... 150402.pdf) do they not meet in both cases (i.e. two children with ILR and one without and British status).

Really appreciate your help.

Posted: **Thu Apr 14, 2016 1:38 pm**

HO call centre is well known for providing incorrect information and take no responsibility for it. It is a call centre, they are not immigration advisors.

Your children born abroad with ILR and applying for citizenship make the application under section 3(1) of the nationality act, which is a decision at discretion, no guarantee of success and the older children being abroad at the moment will be a problem. They have no entitlement to register as British and your new British status doesn't change that.

The child born last year has no UK status. The child will need to apply for a child settlement visa. There is no other route back to the UK for this child. The child is not British.

Posted: **Thu Apr 14, 2016 4:21 pm**

Thanks for your input CR001, really appreciate that.

However, I asked the Home Office representative twice for both the scenarios and they were absolutely certain about that. I asked who can provide me this in writing for which they have suggested to contact FurtherNationalityEnquiries@homeoffice.gsi.gov.uk which I shall do and let everyone know on this forum.

Posted: **Thu Apr 14, 2016 4:35 pm**

When is your family planning on returning to the UK?

What are the exact questions you have asked the call centre and what was their exact response?

Your children born abroad cannot apply if they are not resident in the UK. Their applications are based on discretion, they need to be in the UK to apply and have to submit their passports and ILR BRP with their application. You have been given incorrect advice by HO call centre.

Your child born in September has absolutely no status in the UK as the child was born BEFORE you became British. Why do you think the case is different?

Why do you think your circumstances are different or that your children born abroad can apply from their home country?

If you feel I am wrong and HO is correct, please do apply then and let us know once refused and you have lost £936 x 3 in fees.

Posted: **Thu Apr 14, 2016 7:13 pm**

noajthan wrote:
ammaralvi wrote:Both were born in Pakistan, 11/01/2007 and 27/08/2009 respectively. I arrived in the UK on 18/10/2009 on Tier-1 General.
Be careful for children who are living abroad & also for any without settled status in UK (no ILR).

See https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... 150402.pdf

Have you read the guidance already provided to you?

Ref paras 9.17.2 & 9.17.3

Also 9.17.5

See 9.17.24 re immigration status (eg wrt youngest child).

Posted: **Thu Apr 14, 2016 9:11 pm**

The reason I have asked when your family intends to return is because if your wife and children who hold ILR are absent for 2 or more years, ILR is lost and they might have to start again from scratch.

Posted: **Fri Apr 15, 2016 9:41 am**

Firstly, thank you very much CR001 and noajthan for your valuable comments, they definitely help a lot.

noajthan
I had read the guide a year or so ago, gone through the points both you and CR001 have mentioned and understood that all three children's application will be under section 3(1) from within the UK. I'll explain this more towards the end. So, I'm aware of the guide.

CR001
I really appreciate your detailed comments however nowhere did I state that you're wrong or I intend to ignore your suggestions, all I stated was that the information you provided, or what I had developed reading the guide, was in exact opposite to what Home Office representative suggested. The reason for my enquiry from HO and subsequently this forum in opposition to an understanding exactly like you that I had developed by reading the guide was a call that one of my friends made to HO where they suggested exactly what they suggested to me. So, it isn't just me but two people have got the same information from one source, i.e. Home Office. I appreciate they are infamous of providing wrong information, and because it isn't in written form not standing behind it. The point I was trying to make was to get the same information in writing from them and then complain against that otherwise that should work in favour of everyone. My expectation is that the email response from HO will be per our understanding not what HO representative has stated.

I also understand the questions elaborate the situation and communicating them may have effect on what is being advised. Keeping that in mind and knowing that I was posting the question after I had spoken with HO representative, I specifically drew the background and question sections in my initial comment according to what I asked on the phone.

Regarding your point that ILR will be lost if they do not travel within 2 years is also known and part of the consideration. However, if (and this is completely hypothetical) we consider that children can apply for registration from Pakistan, I need to worry three people less en-route British citizenship. Hope you appreciate my viewpoint?

To both CR001 and noajthan
I would really appreciate if you could read through my understanding of what I need doing to get remaining family members British:

1-a. Ensure my wife and two children with ILR travel to the UK before 2 years of departure from the UK after they were granted ILR.

1-b. Apply ILE for my third child from Pakistan for which biometric will be taken in Pakistan but application will be submitted in the UK. Once application is approved a vignette valid for 30 days from the intended date of travel on the application form will be stamped on child's passport and he will need to travel within that. Once in the UK, the child will have to collect his BRP from post office within 10 days. This will bring my wife and all three children to settlement status.

2. Apply registration for all three children in the UK. They will give biometric for this process again in the UK. Once application gets approved they can apply for British passport.

3. My wife will need to spend 2 consecutive years in the UK before she can apply for her naturalisation. Her first visa was stamped 06/10/2010 as a Tier-1 General Dependant.

I'd appreciate if you could suggest on the specific point(s) where the mistake is so we elaborate the process in the sequence of events. I'm sure this will be helpful to many others.

Thanks once again for all your help and support.

Posted: **Fri Apr 15, 2016 10:01 am**

You are correct in your assumption that IF you get any correspondence or response from HO, it will be different to what you have been advised by phone.

1-a. Ensure my wife and two children with ILR travel to the UK before 2 years of departure from the UK after they were granted ILR. Yes

1-b. Apply ILE for my third child from Pakistan for which biometric will be taken in Pakistan but application will be submitted in the UK. Once application is approved a vignette valid for 30 days from the intended date of travel on the application form will be stamped on child's passport and he will need to travel within that. Once in the UK, the child will have to collect his BRP from post office within 10 days. This will bring my wife and all three children to settlement status. Correct

2. Apply registration for all three children in the UK. They will give biometric for this process again in the UK. Once application gets approved they can apply for British passport. Your children, especially the oldest one, might require a period of residence, especially if they have bene away for a long time. It might be better to apply for the children when your wife applies. Wait for others to comment.

3. My wife will need to spend 2 consecutive years in the UK before she can apply for her naturalisation. Her first visa was stamped 06/10/2010 as a Tier-1 General Dependant. Why does she need 2 consecutive years in the UK? She can apply based on 5 years residence or on 3 years residence and must meet the absence requirements, so as soon as she is within the absence limit, she could apply.

Posted: **Fri Apr 15, 2016 10:38 am**

Thanks CR001, I shall wait for others to comment as well but one small question and a clarification for last point.

CR001 wrote:1-a. Ensure my wife and two children with ILR travel to the UK before 2 years of departure from the UK after they were granted ILR. Yes

1-b. Apply ILE for my third child from Pakistan for which biometric will be taken in Pakistan but application will be submitted in the UK. Once application is approved a vignette valid for 30 days from the intended date of travel on the application form will be stamped on child's passport and he will need to travel within that. Once in the UK, the child will have to collect his BRP from post office within 10 days. This will bring my wife and all three children to settlement status. Correct

2. Apply registration for all three children in the UK. They will give biometric for this process again in the UK. Once application gets approved they can apply for British passport. [CR001] Your children, especially the oldest one, might require a period of residence, especially if they have bene away for a long time. It might be better to apply for the children when your wife applies. Wait for others to comment.[ammaralvi] Why would it be a problem for the eldest as he isn't 10 yet when he'd need character certificate, what exactly makes you think his case will be difficult?

3. My wife will need to spend 2 consecutive years in the UK before she can apply for her naturalisation. Her first visa was stamped 06/10/2010 as a Tier-1 General Dependant. [CR001] Why does she need 2 consecutive years in the UK? She can apply based on 5 years residence or on 3 years residence and must meet the absence requirements, so as soon as she is within the absence limit, she could apply. [ammaralvi] As she has been away for a long time she won't be able to qualify for 5 year or 3 year continuous residence period. If we assume that her residence period starts from her arrival this time, what is minimum that she needs to stay before applying for naturalisation?

Posted: **Fri Apr 15, 2016 11:08 am**

2. Apply registration for all three children in the UK. They will give biometric for this process again in the UK. Once application gets approved they can apply for British passport. [CR001] Your children, especially the oldest one, might require a period of residence, especially if they have bene away for a long time. It might be better to apply for the children when your wife applies. Wait for others to comment.

[ammaralvi] Why would it be a problem for the eldest as he isn't 10 yet when he'd need character certificate, what exactly makes you think his case will be difficult?

I said residence NOT good character. All applicants require period of residence.

3. My wife will need to spend 2 consecutive years in the UK before she can apply for her naturalisation. Her first visa was stamped 06/10/2010 as a Tier-1 General Dependant. [CR001] Why does she need 2 consecutive years in the UK? She can apply based on 5 years residence or on 3 years residence and must meet the absence requirements, so as soon as she is within the absence limit, she could apply.

[ammaralvi] As she has been away for a long time she won't be able to qualify for 5 year or 3 year continuous residence period. If we assume that her residence period starts from her arrival this time, what is minimum that she needs to stay before applying for naturalisation?

She needs to make sure her absences are with in the limit (540 days for 5 years application or 270 days for 3 years application). I can't guess what her total absence is or will be. She also needs to meet the 'physically present' at the start of the qualifying period requirement.

Posted: **Fri Apr 15, 2016 11:13 am**

In that case why not the same requirement for my daughter? And why not for the newborn? What I'm trying to understand is why would the eldest be treated different from the two younger ones?

Posted: **Fri Apr 15, 2016 11:50 am**

This is my last post on this.

Your children's applications are at HO discretion and not guaranteed and could be refused (you lose the fees). There are no specials circumstances and they have no entitlement or automatic right to apply. They should meet the requirements to be eligible. You now being British does not confer special circumstances to them.

Posted: **Fri Apr 15, 2016 2:13 pm**

ammaralvi wrote:In that case why not the same requirement for my daughter? And why not for the newborn? What I'm trying to understand is why would the eldest be treated different from the two younger ones?

The older a child is, combined with the time they have spent out of the UK, is relevant to whether a child is really settled and committed to life in the UK. This interpretation is completely at the discretion of the home office. Hence it is better that older children have spent a minimal amount of time in the country (on the order of years) and that that time be a significant percentage of their young life as a whole. Again, this is all at the discretion of the UK government.

Posted: **Mon Jul 25, 2016 1:13 am**

ammaralvi wrote:
Jambo wrote:Once he is over 18, he is not considered a child but an adult and needs to meet the naturalisation requirements. If he is not married to a BC that means 5 years of residence, have ILR for at least 1 year, less than 450 days of absence etc..
Just to clarify, what happens in the case where the child already has ILR but only moves to the UK after 16; will their ILR remain in tact? Will they be under 5 years' residence requirement?

Posted: **Mon Jul 25, 2016 1:36 am**

Age does not affect ILR.

Adults, who are not the spouse nor civil partner of a British citizen, when applying for naturalisation, require 5 years residence.

Posted: **Mon Jul 25, 2016 9:46 am**

vinny wrote:Age does not affect ILR.

Adults, who are not the spouse nor civil partner of a British citizen, when applying for naturalisation, require 5 years residence.

Thanks for the clarification vinny.

Reading through 9.17 for registration under 3(1), is it safe to assume that children over 16 will generally have to follow the requirements as for 18 and above as they will have too short a time to make the connection?

Posted: **Mon Jul 25, 2016 10:10 am**

Yes. Overseas born children over 13 are expected to have resided in the UK prior for at least two years before they may register, unless they fall under an exception as in 9.17.21. If they turn 18 or over before they register, then they cannot register. They must be treated as adults.

Posted: **Mon Aug 01, 2016 12:36 pm**

As discussed in this thread at the beginning, my youngest child has now got the settlement visa approved and vignette stamped in the passport. However, the accompanying letter has a statement that causes some confusion, maybe just because of its wording:

Your application for UK visa has been successful. This means that when you arrive in the UK you will have permission to be in the UK (known as Leave to Enter) as SETTLEMENT TO JOIN PARENT(S) from 18 Aug 2016 to 13 Oct 2020.

The vignette itself contains observation as: Settlement: Indefinite leave to remain

I assume the letter is stating the expiry date of the BRP at which time I will have to apply for a replacement BRP, similar to ILR given inside the UK?

Posted: **Mon Aug 01, 2016 12:59 pm**

Correct

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