Immigrationboards.com

I have been reported a case where at the request for renewal of the British passports of the children of a couple of EEA citizens with Permanent Residency status, but not certified, the caseworker has put the application on hold, and requested the parents to provide the documentation to prove one of them has exercised treaty rights for 5 years before the children birthday, something they had obviously already done a few years back, when requesting the passports for the first time.

Does anyone know if Is this usual kind of feedback at passport renewal, or if is it a very recent change of policy, or perhaps the caseworker or whoever gives him directions got a tad too excited about the EU referendum results?

Will the children be asked to prove their parents' settled status at their birthday at every passport renewal of their life?

Should the parents pay £198 per children to request the Home Office to provide them with a Confirmation of status as a British citizen" through the form NS?

Probably this?

UK citizenship given to children of eastern European migrants in error

Some passports revoked after 100 cases discovered in which documents were not checked during application process

secret.simon wrote:Probably this?

UK citizenship given to children of eastern European migrants in error

Some passports revoked after 100 cases discovered in which documents were not checked during application process

Thank you. Astounding.

Would someone who hold the political responsibility for the Home Office since 2010 be remotely qualified for the job of prime minister of our country? Are all the other ones really so bad?

I see this as the risk taken in using EEA law (which does not require documentation) to trigger an action in UK law (issuing passports or acquiring citizenship.

Alternatively, can this be the justification for requiring DCPR/Permanent Residence Card before either registering or issuing passports for children born in the UK to EEA parents?

aledeniz wrote:Would someone who hold the political responsibility for the Home Office since 2010 be remotely qualified for the job of prime minister of our country? Are all the other ones really so bad?

Who are the alternatives? I think she is the most competent.

aledeniz wrote:Does anyone know if Is this usual kind of feedback at passport renewal, or if is it a very recent change of policy, or perhaps the caseworker or whoever gives him directions got a tad too excited about the EU referendum results?

I don't know what the policy on checking is, but this is not the first time that it has been discovered that passports have been issued in error. It seems that it took a long time (c. 20 years) for the Passport Office to realise that people born in the UK were not necessarily British!

aledeniz wrote:Will the children be asked to prove their parents' settled status at their birthday at every passport renewal of their life?

No. However, it is possible a further question may be asked decades hence.

aledeniz wrote:Should the parents pay £198 per children to request the Home Office to provide them with a Confirmation of status as a British citizen" through the form NS?

I fear it makes sense. It will be easier to look after than a bundle of documents, and there will be no problem with the bundle being split or lost when the parents die.

It is worth bearing in mind that both a letter confirming British nationality status and a British passport are only prima facie proof of citizenship, not conclusive proof when it comes to proving British citizenship.

There is, to the best of my knowledge, no conclusive proof of British citizenship for a person born in the UK to parents having either ILR or PR.

Richard W wrote:

aledeniz wrote:Should the parents pay £198 per children to request the Home Office to provide them with a Confirmation of status as a British citizen" through the form NS?

I fear it makes sense. It will be easier to look after than a bundle of documents, and there will be no problem with the bundle being split or lost when the parents die.

Thank you.

Wouldn't the HO database have a case number, a reference to the specific record which will hopefully have attached a copy of all said documents?

Also see this thread on how long the Home Office retain records before destroying them.

secret.simon wrote:It is worth bearing in mind that both a letter confirming British nationality status and a British passport are only prima facie proof of citizenship, not conclusive proof when it comes to proving British citizenship.

There is, to the best of my knowledge, no conclusive proof of British citizenship for a person born in the UK to parents having either ILR or PR.

Thank you.

I was well aware about the passport not being a prima facie proof of citizenship, but I was uncertain about the letter confirming British nationality status.

Basically, my understanding from this thread answers is that whoever got a passport through a bundle of documents to prove settled status of their parents, is at risk of loosing their citizenship at any future renewal, while this threat is somewhat mitigated if the parent had certified their status, but it is never completely treated.

As secret.simon wrote on this post http://www.immigrationboards.com/genera ... l#p1369135

It's possible to apply for a Letter confirming British Nationality Status. https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... us-form-ns

I applied for my daughter passport based on point 3.5 under Worker Section (Page 3 and 4)
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... Policy.pdf

I did not have DCPR at the moment of the application. It hasn't changed since then and there is still not need for DCPR to do this.

However I am looking for more proof of British Nationality Status for my daughter as I don't want to have problems in 4 years time.
I have received my DCPR in May this year.

aledeniz wrote:Should the parents pay £198 per children to request the Home Office to provide them with a Confirmation of status as a British citizen" through the form NS?

Is it the same form secret.simon suggested?

From Page 3 of Guide NS;

Whether you have British nationality is a matter that can be determined conclusively only by the courts.

VinGam wrote:As secret.simon wrote on this post http://www.immigrationboards.com/genera ... l#p1369135

It's possible to apply for a Letter confirming British Nationality Status. https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... us-form-ns

However I am looking for more proof of British Nationality Status for my daughter as I don't want to have problems in 4 years time.
I have received my DCPR in May this year.

aledeniz wrote:Should the parents pay £198 per children to request the Home Office to provide them with a Confirmation of status as a British citizen" through the form NS?

Is it the same form secret.simon suggested?

Yes.

aledeniz wrote:I have been reported a case where at the request for renewal of the British passports of the children of a couple of EEA citizens with Permanent Residency status, but not certified, the caseworker has put the application on hold, and requested the parents to provide the documentation to prove one of them has exercised treaty rights for 5 years before the children birthday, something they had obviously already done a few years back, when requesting the passports for the first time.

I have some clarification on the parents' position.

Both the parents came in UK in 2002 from one of the Eastern European countries that then joined the EU in 2004. One with a business visa, the other with a student visa, renewed in 2003, and which were expiring well after the 30 April 2004. I have seen the 2003 renewal of the latter, it is a "Leave to Remain" (this confuses me, as they remember to have used a form called BR1, shouldn't that be to get a registration certificate?). The one with the student visa was working part time, 20 hours per week, the one with the business visa was working full time. No CSI, as back then was not requested and AFAIK not even in the regulation. They have never requested registration cards, nor DCPRs. As both of them were legally in the country the 30 April 2004, they were advised by the Home Office at the time that they did not need to register in the WRS. They have both worked ever since.

Apparently, the first passport application for the elder child was made from the parent who entered initially with a student visa, who may have claimed to have exercised treaty rights as a student initially, but without CSI. Crucially, the child was born after the 30 June 2011, when the HO started to enforce the CSI requirement set out in the 2006 regulations, therefore I wonder whether the Passport Office updated their processes at a much later stage?

My understanding of the case is that both parents should be qualified person from the 1st May 2004 onwards, as long as they kept working they would have achieved settled status in 2009.
Also, my understanding is that they could not have started their qualified status period from the first time they entered in the UK, e.g. 2002-2007, as their EEA country joined only in 2004, but that they should have been exempted from the WRS, as they were both working for more than 12 months the 30 April 2004. Is that a correct understanding?

Should the parent contact the caseworker, claiming the first year(s) not as a student but as a worker, albeit part time? Is there any limitation they should be aware of (are 20 hours per week enough)? Or should they renounce that application, and reapply through the other parent, the one who was a worker from 2002?

Last but not least, what happens at renewal to children whose parents requested a passport before the 30 June 2011, having exercised treaty rights as a student without CSI nor registration card? Will they loose the citizenship, or is there a transitional arrangement for their case?

aledeniz wrote:I have some clarification on the parents' position.

Both the parents came in UK in 2002 from one of the Eastern European countries that then joined the EU in 2004. One with a business visa, the other with a student visa, renewed in 2003, and which were expiring well after the 30 April 2004. I have seen the 2003 renewal of the latter, it is a "Leave to Remain" (this confuses me, as they remember to have used a form called BR1, shouldn't that be to get a registration certificate?). The one with the student visa was working part time, 20 hours per week, the one with the business visa was working full time. No CSI, as back then was not requested and AFAIK not even in the regulation. They have never requested registration cards, nor DCPRs. As both of them were legally in the country the 30 April 2004, they were advised by the Home Office at the time that they did not need to register in the WRS. They have both worked ever since.

Apparently, the first passport application for the elder child was made from the parent who entered initially with a student visa, who may have claimed to have exercised treaty rights as a student initially, but without CSI. Crucially, the child was born after the 30 June 2011, when the HO started to enforce the CSI requirement set out in the 2006 regulations, therefore I wonder whether the Passport Office updated their processes at a much later stage?

My understanding of the case is that both parents should be qualified person from the 1st May 2004 onwards, as long as they kept working they would have achieved settled status in 2009.
Also, my understanding is that they could not have started their qualified status period from the first time they entered in the UK, e.g. 2002-2007, as their EEA country joined only in 2004, but that they should have been exempted from the WRS, as they were both working for more than 12 months the 30 April 2004. Is that a correct understanding?

Should the parent contact the caseworker, claiming the first year(s) not as a student but as a worker, albeit part time? Is there any limitation they should be aware of (are 20 hours per week enough)? Or should they renounce that application, and reapply through the other parent, the one who was a worker from 2002?

Last but not least, what happens at renewal to children whose parents requested a passport before the 30 June 2011, having exercised treaty rights as a student without CSI nor registration card? Will they loose the citizenship, or is there a transitional arrangement for their case?

What are parents' nationalities?

EC rights exercised before date of accession can help acquire PR. Not sure if this holds if only part of the 5 year period was completed before accession.

Ziolkowski(C-424/10)
The ECJ case of Ziolkowski held that periods of residence in another member state which were completed before the accession to the EU of that person’s state of nationality must be taken into account ...

WRS is not a showstopper if working as per below ...

WRS exemption
Workers that were exempt from registering on the scheme included:

• those who were self-employed
  those who were students
  those who were working legally in the UK on the 30th of April 2004 and continued in their employment
  those who were in continuous employment for a period of at least 12 months falling partly or wholly on or after 30 April 2004
  those who had left to enter on the SAWS scheme before 1 May 2004 and had started working in the UK under the SAWS scheme on or after 1 May 2004
  those who were providing services in the UK on behalf of an employer who is not established in the UK

Students without CSI or EHIC or a RC invoking the ta should not have been classed as student qualified persons.
The internal HO guidance is clear on that vital matter - even a non-student RC from in/before 2011 is a dealbreaker.
Ref https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ ... issued.pdf

So the student parent without CSI and no RC is a non-starter as a student qualified person.

As a worker they would have to show their work was genuine and effective rather than supplementary and marginal.
Ref qp guidance:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... _clean.pdf
- see sections on students, workers and assessing work.

The HO may respond by playing hardball and retrospectively applying their PET/MET tests to assess the work and the worker.
Could be a sticky wicket..

Alternately, the full-time worker parent could have acquired PR by 2007 (ie from 2002-2007) if the Ziolkowski case law applies;
that is, by virtue of being exempt from WRS registration (as working in 2004) and being from a country that accessed EU in 2004.

If child was born in 2011 then clearly s/he is British as born to a settled parent. Q.E.D.

aledeniz wrote:I have been reported a case where at the request for renewal of the British passports of the children of a couple of EEA citizens with Permanent Residency status, but not certified, the caseworker has put the application on hold, and requested the parents to provide the documentation to prove one of them has exercised treaty rights for 5 years before the children birthday, something they had obviously already done a few years back, when requesting the passports for the first time.

Does anyone know if Is this usual kind of feedback at passport renewal, or if is it a very recent change of policy, or perhaps the caseworker or whoever gives him directions got a tad too excited about the EU referendum results?

Will the children be asked to prove their parents' settled status at their birthday at every passport renewal of their life?

Should the parents pay £198 per children to request the Home Office to provide them with a Confirmation of status as a British citizen" through the form NS?

I was renewing my kids passports second half of the last year and they did't request no other documentation than current passport.

boloney wrote:I was renewing my kids passports second half of the last year and they did't request no other documentation than current passport.

They may have adopted this policy of reviewing the passport renewals of settled East European citizens after that.

Alternatively, if the policy was already in place, they may have found that in your specific case everything was in order.

Having said that, in your place I would definitively worry of the threat of not having a conclusive proof of British citizenship for your children.

noajthan wrote:What are parents' nationalities?

Thank you for your answers, really helpful and informative.

One of the A8 countries, they may be from Poland.

noajthan wrote:EC rights exercised before date of accession can help acquire PR. Not sure if this holds if only part of the 5 year period was completed before accession.

Ziolkowski(C-424/10) seems quite promising.

noajthan wrote: WRS is not a showstopper if working as per below ...

WRS exemption
Workers that were exempt from registering on the scheme included:

• those who were self-employed
  those who were students
  those who were working legally in the UK on the 30th of April 2004 and continued in their employment
  those who were in continuous employment for a period of at least 12 months falling partly or wholly on or after 30 April 2004
  those who had left to enter on the SAWS scheme before 1 May 2004 and had started working in the UK under the SAWS scheme on or after 1 May 2004
  those who were providing services in the UK on behalf of an employer who is not established in the UK

Yes, it does appear this may be their case.

noajthan wrote: Students without CSI or EHIC or a RC invoking the ta should not have been classed as student qualified persons.
The internal HO guidance is clear on that vital matter - even a non-student RC from in/before 2011 is a dealbreaker.
...
So the student parent without CSI and no RC is a non-starter as a student qualified person.

I knew about that, but in this class of cases, e.g. students who entered before the CSI became a requirement, I never understood how no one has ever successfully challenged the current law.

Anyway, would not having CSI impact the student parent WRS exemption?

noajthan wrote: As a worker they would have to show their work was genuine and effective rather than supplementary and marginal.
Ref qp guidance:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... _clean.pdf
- see sections on students, workers and assessing work.

The HO may respond by playing hardball and retrospectively applying their PET/MET tests to assess the work and the worker.

In 2002/03 and 2003/2004 the PET was £385 per month, so as long as they were gaining more than that, the HO should be satisfied, right?

What about if the earnings of the parent who was then a part time working student were lower than that the first year, and higher the next one? Would that parent residence start to count from 2003/04, and they would still not need the registration with the WRS, right?

noajthan wrote: Alternately, the full-time worker parent could have acquired PR by 2007 (ie from 2002-2007) if the Ziolkowski case law applies;
that is, by virtue of being exempt from WRS registration (as working in 2004) and being from a country that accessed EU in 2004.

If child was born in 2011 then clearly s/he is British as born to a settled parent. Q.E.D.

Yes, this seems to path of less resistance to renew the children passports.

Could the parents contact the HO and ask the caseworker to proceed to renew the passport on the basis of the other parent being settled, even though the first time they requested the passport they used the documentation of the parent who had been a student without CSI and RC?

Or do they have to renounce to the renewal, and re-apply for a first passport again?

aledeniz wrote:I knew about that, but in this class of cases, e.g. students who entered before the CSI became a requirement, I never understood how no one has ever successfully challenged the current law.

CSI for students has been a legal requirement since 2000. See Section 3 of the EEA Regulations 2000 as made and Section 4 of the EEA regulations 2006 as made.

It only started getting enforced from 2011 onwards when the first PR applications under the 2006 regulations became due and the Home Office reread the requirements and started applying them. But it was already the law from 2000 onwards.

secret.simon wrote: CSI for students has been a legal requirement since 2000.

My own sister moved in the UK as a EU student in 1999. She wouldn't be able to use that as she has been out of the country twice for more than 2 years afterwards, breaking the continuity of residence, but it is not impossible there may be other EU citizens who were student before the 2000 regulations was issued and have been here in UK ever since.

aledeniz wrote:

boloney wrote:I was renewing my kids passports second half of the last year and they did't request no other documentation than current passport.

They may have adopted this policy of reviewing the passport renewals of settled East European citizens after that.

Alternatively, if the policy was already in place, they may have found that in your specific case everything was in order.

Having said that, in your place I would definitively worry of the threat of not having a conclusive proof of British citizenship for your children.

My kids case was straighforward as The had PR confirmation before they were born. Hope they don't make my kids problems in future. We will see. Right now I have all my paperwork, even payslips from 2004 when I first came here.