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Need help in UKM, Can someone suggest if Romein's case ruling apply in my case:

1) Grandfather British Subject by birth
2) Grandfather registered as British Citizen and received British Passport 1954

3) 1951 - My mother was born in Kenya Nairobi she got ‘Citizen of United Kingdom and Colonies ‘ (CUKC).(Grandfather worked in Crown services at the time of my mother birth)

4) 1980 I was born in India 1980 . My mother was ‘Citizen of United Kingdom and Colonies at the time of my Birth.
5) British High Commission in India changed her status from CUKC to British Overseas citizen in 1987.

6) My Mother was registered as British Citizen under Immigration Act 1981 in 2003.

Can you please suggest if I am eligible for UKM

rashsaini0007 wrote: ↑

Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:50 pm

Need help in UKM, Can someone suggest if Romein's case ruling apply in my case:

1) Grandfather British Subject by birth
2) Grandfather registered as British Citizen and received British Passport 1954

3) 1951 - My mother was born in Kenya Nairobi she got ‘Citizen of United Kingdom and Colonies ‘ (CUKC).(Grandfather worked in Crown services at the time of my mother birth)

4) 1980 I was born in India 1980 . My mother was ‘Citizen of United Kingdom and Colonies at the time of my Birth.
5) British High Commission in India changed her status from CUKC to British Overseas citizen in 1987.

6) My Mother was registered as British Citizen under Immigration Act 1981 in 2003.

Can you please suggest if I am eligible for UKM

Your previous posts indicate you applied for naturalised after 5 years PBS visa and ILR back in 2014???

rashsaini0007 wrote: ↑

Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:50 pm

1) Grandfather British Subject by birth
2) Grandfather registered as British Citizen and received British Passport 1954

Where and when was your grandfather born?

rashsaini0007 wrote: ↑

Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:50 pm

Grandfather worked in Crown services at the time of my mother birth

Which Crown Service did your grandfather work in and in what capacity? Where was your grandfather recruited into the Crown Service?

Was any member of the family born to or adopted by a parent born in the UK (as currently constituted)?

I think the mother's right of abode is important to this question. The OP states that the mother was a CUKC (which didn't distinguish as to right of abode) but subsequently got a British Overseas citizen status, which doesn't have right of abode. Now, my understanding is that right of abode is statutory, and since the mother received a BO passport, it suggests she never had it. Since UKM requires the mother to have both British citizenship otherwise than by descent, and right of abode, my understanding is that this would mean the OP isn't eligible.

Thanks for your reply.
My grandfather was born in India which at the time was ruled by British.His passport dated 1943 issued by EMPIRE OF INDIA (EMPIRE DES INDES BRITANNIQUES) states "British subject by birth" status. he moved to Kenya in 1943 and worked as electrical engineer in Her Majesty Ship. His British Citizen registration certificate states that he was in crown service from 1944.

My Mother Passport which she had at the time of my birth states " British Subject, the citizen ou united Kingdom and colonies. and she had right to abode.
She never attained any other country passport.

It believe British consulate in Delhi in error initially replace her "British Subject, the citizen Of united Kingdom and colonies" with BOP.

I hope this help

My Grandfather was recruited in Kenya Nairobi for crown services.

All of my mother's brother sister are British citizen as they had right to abode similar to my mother so acquired British citizenship. it is only because my mother was married to an Indian she initially lived in india after marriage for some time using her "British Subject, the citizen of united Kingdom and colonies" she never accepted/acquired Indian citizenship.
But when she want to come to UK she asked British consulate to issue her British passport as she had right to abode but instead British consulate issued her BOP.

I too am an intending UKM applicant from India with a UK mother. However my application is much more clear cut, since she was born in UK itself. Therefore, none of the details involving grandparents applies in my case.

Generally, some things about your situation that are not clear are:
* What crown service was your grandfather recruited into and where specifically was he recruited ? Was he recruited within UK - with documentation to the effect - or recruited in Kenya ?
* Which year did your mother marry ? Which year did she move to India ?
* What documentation do you have as proof that you or your mother have right of abode ?

The Guide UKM says (quoting only what's relevant to you):
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... y_2018.pdf

You will be entitled to registration if you meet all four of the below requirements:
1. you were born before 1 January 1983; and
2. you would have become a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies by descent if women had been able to pass on citizenship to their children in the same way as men at the time of your birth; and
3. you have right of abode which you acquired because:
(ii) one of your mother’s parents (the definition of “parent” here excludes the father, but includes the mother, of an illegitimate child) was a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies by birth, legal adoption, naturalisation or registration* in the United Kingdom, Channel Islands or Isle of Man at the time of her birth; or

You will meet the second requirement if at the time of your birth:
(a) your mother was:
• born, adopted, naturalised or registered in the United Kingdom and Colonies; or
• a British subject before 1 January 1949 and was born in a British protectorate, protected state or United Kingdom trust territory; or
(b) your mother was, at the time of your birth, a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies and:
(i) you were born, or your mother was born, in a British protectorate, protected state, mandated territory or trust territory or in any foreign place in which British subjects came under British extraterritorial jurisdiction;
(iv) your mother was in Crown service under the United Kingdom government at the time of your birth;

Here are some problem:
* Your grandfather was not a UK citizen at the time of your mother's birth. You state she was born in 1950, but that he gained citizenship/passport in 1954. So it doesn't follow the guideline above.
* It's not clear why you think your mother's BOP was given in error. Did she reside for at least 5 years in UK at any time before 1983 ? It appears her siblings may have right of abode on that basis, but she does not.
* For requirement 2, your mother doesn't satisfy condition (a) and you don't satisfy (b)(i), since you were born in India, which doesn't fall into any of the listed categories for that section. Presumably your mother doesn't satisfy (b)(iv) either.

rashsaini0007 wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 31, 2018 11:51 pm

My Grandfather was recruited in Kenya Nairobi for crown services.

I do not think it's a good sign for your case that he was neither a British citizen at the time of your mother's birth, nor recruited in UK for Crown service at the time.

"Your grandfather was not a UK citizen at the time of your mother's birth. You state she was born in 1950, but that he gained citizenship/passport in 1954. So it doesn't follow the guideline above. "

I believe the guidelines say if some one has British subject status before 1949 they should be considered as British citizens.

Im afraid you’ll need more concrete proof , since your grandfather did actually have to register in 1954, so it’s not clear what his status was in 1950, which is after BNA 1949.

Separately, there’s the question of your own right of abode . The precise wording is quoted earlier - it asks if either your mother or grandparent was not just CUKC but born within UK.

I recommend also asking over on the UK citizenship section on other forums (there are many if you google) . Please list all pertinent when/where information for you, your mother and grandfather precisely . This includes time spent in UK (not a colony) by any of you, and the durations

From what I see, you’re three generations born outside UK proper . UK citizenship by descent usually gets propagated one generation from someone born in UK. Two generations if the grandparent is UK born and was recruited in UK . In your case no one is UK born, which makes things more interesting.

Sunburn has done a stellar job of analysing the issue in quite some detail. S/he knows his onions. Hat tip to him/her.

S/he has summed up the issues succinctly. You need to prove that your mother was a CUKC AND had Right of Abode on the date of your birth in order to be able to apply on Form UKM, even after Romein.

rashsaini0007 wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 31, 2018 11:49 pm

My Mother Passport which she had at the time of my birth states " British Subject, the citizen ou united Kingdom and colonies. and she had right to abode.

Does the passport have a stamp or other indication that she definitely had Right of Abode in the UK on the date of your birth?

rashsaini0007 wrote: ↑

Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:50 pm

2) Grandfather registered as British Citizen and received British Passport 1954

Where, when and by whom was he registered as a British citizen? In other words, who was the issuing authority of his registration certificate? That may be important.

rashsaini0007 wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 31, 2018 11:49 pm

he moved to Kenya in 1943 and worked as electrical engineer in Her Majesty Ship

There are two possible details of this aspect that you should pay attention to.

Firstly, was that onboard a ship of the (British) Royal Navy or was that on board one of the ships of the other Royal Navies around the world? Service onboard another Royal Navy (Royal Canadian Navy, Royal East African Navy, etc) won't count as Crown Service for the purpose of acquiring Right of Abode in the UK.

Secondly, I am not convinced that Right of Abode could be acquired by the father being in Crown Service at the time of birth of a CUKC. Section 2 of the Immigration Act 1971 as enacted lists the specific conditions to be met for a CUKC to acquire Right of Abode in 1971. The father (or either parent) being in Crown Service is not a category.

Thank you, secret.simon I wouldn't call myself an expert; I'm simply a Surprised Brit who found out by accident that I'm eligible for UKM. I intend to apply in the next few months.

secret.simon wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:51 pm

Does the passport have a stamp or other indication that she definitely had Right of Abode in the UK on the date of your birth?

This part about the OP's mother's circumstances bothers me. She's born in 1980. Her mother was issued the catch-all BOP status in 1987, which indicates that as of 1987 her mother had no right of abode, and therefore statutorily could not have had it earlier, at the time of her birth, since it cannot be 'lost'.

The OP argues the BOP was issued to her mother in error, but I do not see how, and lack evidence as to the contrary. It appears her mother's siblings' right of abode is on account of their own (pre 1983 ?) UK residence having accorded it to them, but which her mother apparently lacked at the time of her birth due to her assumed continuous residence in India after her time in Kenya.

Here's a flowchart that can be applied to test OP's mother's claim of right of abode:
Flowchart: CUKC with right of abode in the United Kingdom on 31 December 1982

OP: what are your answers on this flowchart, and why ?

sunburn wrote: ↑

Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:55 am

Here's a flowchart that can be applied to test OP's mother's claim of right of abode:
Flowchart: CUKC with right of abode in the United Kingdom on 31 December 1982

OP: what are your answers on this flowchart, and why ?

Thanks. I check this flow chart based on this flow I believe my grandfather was CUCK before 1949.

Note E in this flow chart says "In relation to any time before 1 January 1949, the term 'British subject' should be substituted for 'citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies"
And my Grandfather passport have the wording which says "British subject by birth". so had right to aboard.

When my grandfather and his kids left Kenya they had all had British issued passport which says " British subject, CUKC".
From Kenya they directly flew to India. From India my grandfather and all his kids used there right to abode to come to UK except my mother as she got married at that time.

Even the immigration office at delhi consulate asked my Grandfather about my mother and he mentioned to officer that she is now married an may join us later.

So I am 100% sure that my Grand father and all his kids had right to abode.

The flowchart is to be applied to your mother, since the question is that of whether she has right of abode. You can also apply it to your grandfather though. Please don't misuse the term 'right of abode' - it only applies if you establish that certain specific conditions are met. Having CUKC passport itself does not confer it. Please bear with the long post and details - they really do matter in your case:

CUKC

This came into effect in 1949. Before that, everyone was a British subject; there was no such thing as a British citizen (that was defined in 1983). People living in UK and its remaining colonies had CUKC, while those in independent countries lost CUKC (this applies to my father, born in India shortly before independence). Your grandfather became CUKC by passage of law while in Kenya. Your mother was later born in Kenya and was CUKC for the same reason - Kenya was still a colony.

Both of them retained CUKC in 1963 when Kenya became independent, because several East African countries did not automatically accord CUKCs their own citizenship. Your mother later moved to India

Question: When did she move to India ?
Question: Which years between 1951 and 1983 did she reside *in* UK ?

Right of Abode:

Your grandfather did not have right of abode in 1949. The concept of right of abode was defined in the Immigration Act of 1971 . Before that, anyone with a CUKC passport had ability to go live in UK. So we cannot speak about what he had in 1949, much before the concept existed. In 1971, the law of Right of Abode was established to determine which CUKCs has Right of Abode and which ones did not.

British Nationality Act 1981

This came into effect Jan 1 1983. It got rid of CUKC. Instead, three new classes came into effect:
British citizen
British Dependent Territories Citizen
British Overseas Citizen
There was also British National (Overseas), but that is Hong Kong specific, I believe, so we ignore that. Also, dependent territories is for Gibraltar, Falklands etc, so we ignore that. The choice is between British Citizen and British Overseas citizen.

Anyone with CUKC on Dec 31 1982 was given one of the above statuses. Your mother's choices were:
- *IF* she had Right of Abode as defined by the flowchart, then she gets British Citizen passport
- If she didn't, then she got British Overseas passport.

The latter is what happened. This means that the British government did not recognize that she had Right of Abode on Dec 21 1982, or at any time prior to that date, according to INA 1971. So by consequence she had no Right of Abode when you were born.

What happened in 2002

I believe your mother was one of those affected by this court case: UK overseas citizens win right to live in Britain
This gave a number of otherwise stateless BO passport holders full British citizenship. That is why your mother got one such passport in 2003. Please read the article - it even refers to Kenya and dovetails with your mother previously getting a BO passport in the 1980s.

Therefore, by all available evidence, your mother did not have Right of Abode at the time you were born. The flowchart questions:
1. Was the claimant a CUKC (see note E) by birth, adoption, naturalisation or registration (see note A) in the UK (see note B)
Answer: No. Your mother was born in Kenya, not UK
2. Was either of the claimant's parents (see note C) a CUKC (see note E) when the claimant was born or legally adopted (see note D)?
Answer: Yes your grandfather was CUKC in 1951
3. Was the parent at that time a CUKC (see note E) by birth, adoption (see note D), naturalisation or registration (see Note A) in the UK (see note B)?
Answer: No. Please prove otherwise - you have indicates nothing to suggest your grandfather was *IN* the UK.
4. Was either of that parent's parents (see note C) when the parent was born or legally adopted (see note D) a CUKC (see note E) by birth, adoption (see note D), naturalisation or registration (see note A) in the UK (see note B)?
Answer: No, since CUKC didn't exist when your grandfather was born (pre 1949).
5. Is the claimant a woman?
Answer: yes, since claimant is your mother here.
6. Was she ever married at any time before 1 January 1983 to a Commonwealth citizen (see note F) who had the right of abode?
Answer: No, since there's no evidence your father has Right of Abode separately.
7. Had the claimant, whilst a CUKC (see note E) been ordinarily resident in the UK (see note B) for 5 years at any time before 1 January 1983, and was he at the end of that period settled here?
Answer: Presumably No. This is why I repeatedly asked - has your mother spend 5 years in UK before 1983, and if so, when ?

The conclusion of this path is: Claimant did not have the right of abode on 31 December 1982.

That is why your mother got a British Overseas passport in 1980s - she did not have the Right of Abode then, i.e. when you were born in India.

rashsaini0007 wrote: ↑

Thu Aug 02, 2018 11:00 am

When my grandfather and his kids left Kenya they had all had British issued passport which says " British subject, CUKC".
From Kenya they directly flew to India. From India my grandfather and all his kids used there right to abode to come to UK except my mother as she got married at that time....
So I am 100% sure that my Grand father and all his kids had right to abode.

You misunderstand how the Right of Abode concept works. NOT all CUKCs had Right of Abode (RoA). There were a lot of CUKCs who did not have Right of Abode. Those CUKCs who did not have Right of Abode became British Overseas Citizens (BOC) in 1983.

The Right of Abode concept was created in the 1960s and the Immigration Act 1971. Till that time, all CUKCs around the world could come and live in the UK. After 1971, only CUKCs with Right of Abode could live in the UK without restrictions. If your grandparents and uncles/aunts traveled to the UK and settled here before 1971, they would have acquired Right of Abode status. If your mother did not move to the UK and settle in the UK before 1971, unfortunately she would not have.

It is perfectly possible for her siblings to have acquired RoA and subsequently full British citizenship just because the siblings had arrived in the UK before 1971 and your mother not to because she did not.

To repeat again, all CUKCs/British subjects did not get RoA. Only those who had some direct connection with the UK (birth, descent or settlement
before 1971) got RoA in 1971.

Thanks lot Secret. Simon and Sunburn. I really appreciate your detailed response.

"It is perfectly possible for her siblings to have acquired RoA and subsequently full British citizenship just because the siblings had arrived in the UK before 1971 and your mother not to because she did not"

Can I request or fight a court case that if my mother siblings were given RoA at the time I should also be given the same right. Although due to some personnel reason I couldn't able to join them at the time they came to UK but all of us had the same status.

I am just thinking is its possible to challenge home office decision of giving BOC passport to my mother instead of British passport in 1987???

if I provide documentation of my mother's sibling that what status they have when they first arrived in UK.

rashsaini0007 wrote: ↑

Thu Aug 02, 2018 11:56 pm

Can I request or fight a court case that if my mother siblings were given RoA at the time I should also be given the same right. Although due to some personnel reason I couldn't able to join them at the time they came to UK but all of us had the same status.

I am just thinking is its possible to challenge home office decision of giving BOC passport to my mother instead of British passport in 1987???

Your mother DOES have right of abode, but only since 2002, as mentioned in the news article I posted. That is borne out by the passport she received in 2003.

She did not originally have right of abode, and there's no reason she should have received it, because she had no close ties to the UK itself, having never resided there like her siblings did. That is why she was correctly given a British Overseas passport under BNA 1981.

Fighting a court case is pointless, in my opinion. She's simply one of many who had CUKC without right of abode, and there's nothing special about her circumstances. She actually got a bonus in 2003 as she did not live in a country where she was stateless (e.g. Kenya or Uganda) - she was very much eligible to gain Indian citizenship by descent or naturalization, but chose to remain a stateless BO passport holder, who subsequently gained full British citizenship on account of other BO passport holders who were legitimately stateless in East Africa petitioning for their cases.

Generally, British citizenship is conferred for one generation from the last generation to have close ties to UK. Your grandfather is the last in your direct line to have had close ties to UK. Your mother has not lived there for any length of time before you were born, so she cannot offer her status to you.