Immigrationboards.com

Posted: **Sat Apr 14, 2012 5:46 am**

I am British, but can also apply for an Irish passport by virtue of my grandfather.

I have lived in Thailand for 10 years, and am married to a Thai lady. We have a 3 year-old son who is already a UK passport holder.

We wish to return to the UK permanently. However, I don't have a job or accommodation to return to. I do, however, have GBP30k in savings.

A friend has told me the easiest way to get my wife to the UK, would be to apply for an Irish passport, and then use this this to apply for a 2-year UK family permit for my wife. Apparently, I could request that her application be dealt with in accordance with EEA rules, rather than UK rule.s

I've done extensive reading on the UKBA site, but unfortunately, it's left me with more questions than answers. I'd really appreciate any input, you could give on the following questions:

a) If I apply for an Irish passport, I'm not sure this automatically qualifies me for Irish citizenship. Would, it however, be adequate for the UKBA to consider me 'Irish'?

b) My wife and I have always lived in Thailand. If I'm applying as an 'Irish' national, can I only do so if I have lived in Ireland or another EEA country?

c) Would I be able to apply for the EEA family permit at the British Embassy in BKK, or can it only be applied for from an EEA country?

d) Our intention is to stay in the UK while my son is educated, which will take 20 years. If my wife came to the UK using the family permit route, would she be able to apply for ILR after 2-5 years?

e) As ridiculous as it sounds, I'm told that applying using the EEA family permit route, would be simpler than applying on the basis of my British citizenship. Apparently the UKBA look less stringently at the maintenance and accommodation aspect of the application. Is there any truth to this?

Thanks in advance for any info / advice you can offer. (Sorry, my post became somewhat convoluted)

Posted: **Sat Apr 14, 2012 6:35 am**

Yes. Your wife applying for a six-month EEA family permit, with you as an Irish national, will be free and simpler than applying for an expensive 27-month spouse visa. Subsequently, she may apply for residence documents.

See also 2. Procedural comparison.

Posted: **Sat Apr 14, 2012 6:43 am**

vinny wrote:Yes. Your wife applying for a six-month EEA family permit, with you as an Irish national, will be free and simpler than applying for an expensive 27-month spouse visa. Subsequently, she may apply for residence documents.

See also 2. Procedural comparison.

Vinny - thanks for the quick reply. Do you know whether holding an Irish passport, would ensure the UKBA class me as 'Irish'? I'm worried I'll have to go the full hog and apply for Irish citizenship, and this costs nearly 1000 Euros.

Also, as I've never resided in Ireland, would I be able to submit the EEA family permit application in Bangkok?

Posted: **Sat Apr 14, 2012 7:04 am**

The UK should accept your Irish passport as proof of your Irish citizenship.

Your wife may apply for an EEA family permit in Bangkok.

Posted: **Sat Apr 14, 2012 9:18 am**

Jowels wrote:I am British, but can also apply for an Irish passport by virtue of my grandfather.

I have lived in Thailand for 10 years, and am married to a Thai lady. We have a 3 year-old son who is already a UK passport holder.

We wish to return to the UK permanently. However, I don't have a job or accommodation to return to. I do, however, have GBP30k in savings.

A friend has told me the easiest way to get my wife to the UK, would be to apply for an Irish passport, and then use this this to apply for a 2-year UK family permit for my wife. Apparently, I could request that her application be dealt with in accordance with EEA rules, rather than UK rule.s

I've done extensive reading on the UKBA site, but unfortunately, it's left me with more questions than answers. I'd really appreciate any input, you could give on the following questions:

a) If I apply for an Irish passport, I'm not sure this automatically qualifies me for Irish citizenship. Would, it however, be adequate for the UKBA to consider me 'Irish'? YES, but there's a whole drawn out debate on UK dual nationals, who've only lived in the UK (I know Thailand is not the UK, but that's not what I'm talking about).

b) My wife and I have always lived in Thailand. If I'm applying as an 'Irish' national, can I only do so if I have lived in Ireland or another EEA country? If you are an EU national, there is no requirement to have lived in another EU country.

c) Would I be able to apply for the EEA family permit at the British Embassy in BKK, or can it only be applied for from an EEA country? Bangkok - or any where else for that matter.

d) Our intention is to stay in the UK while my son is educated, which will take 20 years. If my wife came to the UK using the family permit route, would she be able to apply for ILR after 2-5 years? If you use the EU route, you can't switch. Your wife could get PR after 5 years legal residence in the UK.

e) As ridiculous as it sounds, I'm told that applying using the EEA family permit route, would be simpler than applying on the basis of my British citizenship. Apparently the UKBA look less stringently at the maintenance and accommodation aspect of the application. Is there any truth to this? Correct, but there will be conditions on the EU nationals stay to qualify, viz be a worker, student or self sufficient.

Thanks in advance for any info / advice you can offer. (Sorry, my post became somewhat convoluted)

Comments above. Are you sure you will easily be able to get an Irish passport? If your grandfather was an Irish citizen, then it is possible, but there's a procedure to be followed. Parent born in Ireland would have been easier.

I mention one issue above and that is that dual UK / other EU nationals may have difficultly in being considered EU citizens for the purposes of EU law. It's as a result of the McCarthy case. You need to be aware of it.

Posted: **Sat Apr 14, 2012 9:26 am**

Some information on Irish citizenship by decent.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/mo ... scent.html

Posted: **Sat Apr 14, 2012 10:48 am**

Hi Jowels,

welcome to the forum

Jowels wrote:I am British, but can also apply for an Irish passport by virtue of my grandfather...

Just so the terms are used correctly, which may help in the bureaucratical experience you´re about to undergo:

You can apply for an Irish passport only if you are an Irish national.
However
1. you may already be an Irish national "by virtue of" your "grandfather", OR
2. you may have the right to Irish citizenship "by virtue of" your "grandfather".

See difference between passport and nationality >>here<<.

So in case of 1) you would have been Irish+British all your life, but just never applied for an Irish passport (this would be very easy).

In case of 2) you would be "only" British and would still have to apply for Irish citizenship (this would be a bit more complicated).

Not sure which version it is.

Rgds, Christian

Posted: **Sat Apr 14, 2012 12:22 pm**

Jowels wrote:I am British, but can also apply for an Irish passport by virtue of my grandfather.

I have lived in Thailand for 10 years, and am married to a Thai lady. We have a 3 year-old son who is already a UK passport holder.

We wish to return to the UK permanently. However, I don't have a job or accommodation to return to. I do, however, have GBP30k in savings.

A friend has told me the easiest way to get my wife to the UK, would be to apply for an Irish passport, and then use this this to apply for a 2-year UK family permit for my wife. Apparently, I could request that her application be dealt with in accordance with EEA rules, rather than UK rule.s

I've done extensive reading on the UKBA site, but unfortunately, it's left me with more questions than answers. I'd really appreciate any input, you could give on the following questions:

a) If I apply for an Irish passport, I'm not sure this automatically qualifies me for Irish citizenship. Would, it however, be adequate for the UKBA to consider me 'Irish'?

b) My wife and I have always lived in Thailand. If I'm applying as an 'Irish' national, can I only do so if I have lived in Ireland or another EEA country?

c) Would I be able to apply for the EEA family permit at the British Embassy in BKK, or can it only be applied for from an EEA country?

d) Our intention is to stay in the UK while my son is educated, which will take 20 years. If my wife came to the UK using the family permit route, would she be able to apply for ILR after 2-5 years?

e) As ridiculous as it sounds, I'm told that applying using the EEA family permit route, would be simpler than applying on the basis of my British citizenship. Apparently the UKBA look less stringently at the maintenance and accommodation aspect of the application. Is there any truth to this?

Thanks in advance for any info / advice you can offer. (Sorry, my post became somewhat convoluted)

how long have you and your wife been married?

Posted: **Sat Apr 14, 2012 1:56 pm**

EUsmileWEallsmile wrote:Comments above. Are you sure you will easily be able to get an Irish passport? If your grandfather was an Irish citizen, then it is possible, but there's a procedure to be followed. Parent born in Ireland would have been easier.

I mention one issue above and that is that dual UK / other EU nationals may have difficultly in being considered EU citizens for the purposes of EU law. It's as a result of the McCarthy case. You need to be aware of it.

Thanks for the reply. I can obtain an Irish passport because my grandfather was an Irish citizen. I've already obtained a 'Foreign Births Entry Book certificate' from the Irish consulate in Malaysia. I obtained this by forwarding by grandfather's birth and marriage certificates, together with my mother's birth certificate. According to the consulate, I can now use the 'Foreign Births' certificate to obtain an Irish passport.

I am very concerned about the dual citizen aspect. If you have any advice or info on this, I'd be grateful.

Posted: **Sat Apr 14, 2012 2:05 pm**

ca.funke wrote:Hi Jowels,

welcome to the forum

Jowels wrote:I am British, but can also apply for an Irish passport by virtue of my grandfather...
Just so the terms are used correctly, which may help in the bureaucratical experience you´re about to undergo:
You can apply for an Irish passport only if you are an Irish national.
However
you may already be an Irish national "by virtue of" your "grandfather", OR
you may have the right to Irish citizenship "by virtue of" your "grandfather".
See difference between passport and nationality >>here<<.

So in case of 1) you would have been Irish+British all your life, but just never applied for an Irish passport (this would be very easy).

In case of 2) you would be "only" British and would still have to apply for Irish citizenship (this would be a bit more complicated).

Not sure which version it is.

Rgds, Christian

Thanks Christian, but I must admit I'm more confused than ever now. In my case I suspect case 2 applies.

I was born in England, and so were my parents. As far as I know my mother only ever held a UK passport, but since her father (my grandfather) was born in Dublin, I assume she would be entitled to Irish citizenship as well.

I've read through the link, but I must admit I'm still not sure whether the FBR certificate (see previous post) automatically entitles me to Irish citizenship. I thought this was the case, but I may be wrong. It will definitely allow me to obtain an Irish passport, and I hope the UKBA would accept this as proof I am Irish. Sorry, if that doesn't make sense. As you've probably guessed, I'm extremely naive about all this.

Posted: **Sat Apr 14, 2012 2:08 pm**

Greenie wrote:how long have you and your wife been married?

Greenie, we have been married for 5 years, and together for 7 years. I have evidence to document the length of our relationship, and my wife has been to the UK before on a visitor's visa.

We have one son who is three and a half years old. He was born in Thailand, but he has a UK birth certificate and passport.

Posted: **Sat Apr 14, 2012 2:12 pm**

Hi Jowels,

I'm in a similar situation in a nearby part of the world. We've used the EEA route to visit the UK and at one point for the purpose of settling there but returned to SE Asia.

You've already done the most difficult part by getting your foreign births registration. That means you are now an Irish citizen (from the date of registration) but you'll need to get a passport to prove your Irish citizenship to the visa application people. The Irish passport takes a few weeks so get that application in right away.

Under the current situation family members dual nationals are being granted EEA family permits but the government plans to amend the regulations to stop this in light of the McCarthy judgement. So I suggest you get your family permit application in as soon as possible.

I'm curious to see how the amended regulations will apply to dual citizens who are resident outside the EEA. If they stop us being eligible for a family permit then I'd be tempted to renounce my British citizenship (as I have no intention of returning there to live) but that would be a ridiculous situation.

Posted: **Sat Apr 14, 2012 3:26 pm**

Jowels wrote:
Greenie wrote:how long have you and your wife been married?
Greenie, we have been married for 5 years, and together for 7 years. I have evidence to document the length of our relationship, and my wife has been to the UK before on a visitor's visa.

Alternatively, see also Differing settlement visas under the current immigration rules.

Posted: **Sat Apr 14, 2012 3:45 pm**

Smalldog - thanks for taking the trouble to reply, and for clarifying the Irish citizen aspect. It's nice to know I'm already part of the clan!

I'm glad someone in the same region has already been successful with the EEA route. Thanks for the warning re the McCarthy judgement - I'll watch things carefully to see how / when the govt amends the regulations. I'll submit my Irish passport application within the next week, but health and work may prevent my from applying for the EEA family permit immediately. Although the time-frame for my return to the UK is quite open, at this stage I envisage it being within 6-9 months. By making enquiries about visas now, I'm hoping to avoid problems when I submit the application. Hopefully, during the delay the govt won't move the goal posts.

Posted: **Sat Apr 14, 2012 3:58 pm**

You should be aware that although the EEA route is cheaper (free) and easier than the UK spouse route, the path for citizenship is longer - 5 years instead of 3 (with the UK route).
Just something to take into consideration.

Posted: **Sat Apr 14, 2012 4:24 pm**

Hi Jowels,

I didn´t want to confuse you - sorry if I did. Put it that way: Contentwise I didn´t really add anything, I just sorted the terminology for you.

If what smalldog sais is right:

smalldog wrote:...You've already done the most difficult part by getting your foreign births registration. That means you are now an Irish citizen (from the date of registration) but you'll need to get a passport to prove your Irish citizenship to the visa application people...

I´d interpret that you were, by the letter of the law, not an Irish citizen from birth, but you are now.

So now you can choose the EEA-route or the UK-national route, bearing in mind Jambo´s advice:

Jambo wrote:You should be aware that although the EEA route is cheaper (free) and easier than the UK spouse route, the path for citizenship is longer - 5 years instead of 3 (with the UK route).
Just something to take into consideration.

So if -for example- you plan to pick op a UK-passport for your wife, and then move back to Thailand, you should probably choose the UK-route!

Good luck & regards, Christian

Posted: **Sat Apr 14, 2012 4:32 pm**

Jambo - thanks for the heads up. As we're going to the UK for my son's education, I anticipate us staying longer than 5 years. You never know what the future holds though, and adjusting to life in the UK will pose numerous challenges for my wife.

Our main priority it to get my wife indefinite leave to remain. Does that also take 5 years to obtain via the EEA route? Also you mention the EEA route is cheaper. Is that just for the initial family permit application, or will her subsequent applications (leading to ILR) also be free?

From what I can gather obtaining a UK passport is the main advantage of citizenship. I'll do some research to check what other advantages in offers.

Thanks again for your input.

Posted: **Sat Apr 14, 2012 4:37 pm**

Jowels wrote:...obtaining a UK passport is the main advantage of citizenship...

My wife and me wanted to obtain a European Passport for her as quickly as possible, since we can now travel without worrying about visas. That was a major headache before... Canada, Australia, US... Visa, visa, visa - I didn´t want to hear that word anymore... And am now not (except in this forum)

Posted: **Sat Apr 14, 2012 4:42 pm**

ca.funke wrote:I´d interpret that you were, by the letter of the law, not an Irish citizen from birth, but you are now.

So now you can choose the EEA-route or the UK-national route

I took a look at the Dept. of Foreign Affairs website earlier, and based on the info there, I also concur that I'm now an Irish citizen. I'll celebrate with a few Guinness tomorrow night!

I had a read about the McCarthy case earlier, and I am concerned this could affect my application. It seems one of the UK govts main objections was that she used her Irish citizenship purely for the purposes of the EEA. application. This does apply to me as well, but I do have the counter argument that I registered for the FBR 2 years ago. Since, I live in Thailand, hopefully the Embassy would accept the Irish passport, and wouldn't question whether I am also a British citizen.

Posted: **Sat Apr 14, 2012 4:46 pm**

ca.funke wrote:My wife and me wanted to obtain a European Passport for her as quickly as possible, since we can now travel without worrying about visas. That was a major headache before... Canada, Australia, US... Visa, visa, visa - I didn´t want to hear that word anymore... And am now not (except in this forum)

You obviously have more money than me. From what I can remember about the cost of living in the UK, my wife and I will be lucky to get the occasional weekend in Blackpool.

Posted: **Sat Apr 14, 2012 5:09 pm**

Jowels wrote: Our main priority it to get my wife indefinite leave to remain. Does that also take 5 years to obtain via the EEA route? Also you mention the EEA route is cheaper. Is that just for the initial family permit application, or will her subsequent applications (leading to ILR) also be free?

EEA route is free all the way. UK route will cost upto £1500 (depends which visa she will use).

However ILR status is only acquired after 5 years using the EEA route. Check the link vinny posted a few posts above. As you have been living abroad as married for over 4 years, she can apply for a visa which will grant her ILR status once she meets the language requirement (so either on entry or short after).

Posted: **Sat Apr 14, 2012 5:15 pm**

Jowels wrote:
EUsmileWEallsmile wrote:Comments above. Are you sure you will easily be able to get an Irish passport? If your grandfather was an Irish citizen, then it is possible, but there's a procedure to be followed. Parent born in Ireland would have been easier.

I mention one issue above and that is that dual UK / other EU nationals may have difficultly in being considered EU citizens for the purposes of EU law. It's as a result of the McCarthy case. You need to be aware of it.
Thanks for the reply. I can obtain an Irish passport because my grandfather was an Irish citizen. I've already obtained a 'Foreign Births Entry Book certificate' from the Irish consulate in Malaysia. I obtained this by forwarding by grandfather's birth and marriage certificates, together with my mother's birth certificate. According to the consulate, I can now use the 'Foreign Births' certificate to obtain an Irish passport.

I am very concerned about the dual citizen aspect. If you have any advice or info on this, I'd be grateful.

If you read the link I posted earlier, it explains your status as far as Ireland is concerned (I'm posting it again in case you haven't read it). Conclusion, you are Irish irrespective of whether you hold an Irish passport or not now that you have the Foreign Births certificate.

"If you are entitled to register, your Irish citizenship is effective from the date of registration"

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/mo ... scent.html

What's the concern about McCarthy? Well, a UK national, who could claim Irish nationality through her mother tried to avail of EU law solely on the basis of her Irish citizenship. She was not economically active (in fact she was in receipt of benefits). Her case failed. As a result, there is a doubt as to whether dual UK / Irish nationals who have never exercised freedom of movement treaty rights can avail of EU law.

The case can be read here

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex ... 34:EN:HTML

At the moment, the UK would likely treat you as an Irish citizen and would expect you to work in the UK (or be self-sufficient / student) and would grant residence status to your wife. There is the possibility that the McCarthy case could be interpreted restrictively by the UK authorities and might cause difficulties in the future.

Posted: **Sat Apr 14, 2012 5:40 pm**

Jambo wrote:
Jowels wrote: Our main priority it to get my wife indefinite leave to remain. Does that also take 5 years to obtain via the EEA route? Also you mention the EEA route is cheaper. Is that just for the initial family permit application, or will her subsequent applications (leading to ILR) also be free?
EEA route is free all the way. UK route will cost upto £1500 (depends which visa she will use).

However ILR status is only acquired after 5 years using the EEA route. Check the link vinny posted a few posts above. As you have been living abroad as married for over 4 years, she can apply for a visa which will grant her ILR status once she meets the language requirement (so either on entry or short after).

You've sated that ILR is your priority. Why is that? Is it so you can get your wife a UK passport as soon as possible? If so, you should give serious consideration to the UK domestic route. Yes it's more expensive and there are more hoops to jump through, but it looks like you comply with most of the time related parts.

The EU route is easier and will get your wife permanent residence after five years legal residence in the UK. She could then look to apply for naturalisation.

You can't mix and match between domestic and EU route.

Posted: **Thu Mar 06, 2014 9:53 am**

^ Apologies for bumping one of my own threads.

I didn't pursue the EEA family permit two years ago because I received a very good job offer. However, I'm now considering returning to the UK again. Unfortunately, I don't meet the savings requirements for a UK spouse visa, but may do so based on my current salary and a job offer in the UK.

If that doesn't work out, would I still have the option of using my Irish citizenship to obtain an EEA family permit for my Thai wife or has the UK govt already closed the dual Irish-British loophole?

Posted: **Thu Mar 06, 2014 1:20 pm**

It's closed, I'm afraid.

You can still do Surinder Singh through another EEA country (e.g. Ireland/France etc)
See here: http://www.immigrationboards.com/eea-ro ... 59072.html

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