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Hi,

I have a big opportunity to move in London for work.
I already signed the contract and will start on September.
My wife is japanese and lives in Italy with me and has an italian residence card.
Actually we are both in Italy and didn't yet find a house in London.

Here my questions ( sorry, but I'm really confused :

1) To which address/office we have to mail the VAF5 application form?
2) I saw there is the possibility to apply online since my wife is Japanese. Is it better? Where will I receive the UKBA response?
3) Is it possibile to request for an EEA family permit even if I haven't yet found a place to stay in London? I mean, I'm in Italy now. Do you think I can already apply for it?
4) Since my wife is japanese and can stay six months in UK for turism, do you think it is possibile to ask for an EEA family permit directly from the UK? If so, is it possibile to go directly to their offices?
5) Before going in UK, do we have to take an appointment with a VISA Center in Italy in order to take my wife's fingerprints and facial image?
6) which documents they exactly need to receive?

Sorry if I look a bit stressed... but I really am It could be nice to have a "step by step tutorial" on what to do. The UKBA website is well done, but I started looping from a page to another and lost myself.

I will wait for your help! bye

You could save yourself a whole bunch of hassle.

As your wife is not a visa national, she will be able to board an aircraft with a Japanese passport. She could enter the UK under the EEA regulation 11.4.

EUsmileWEallsmile wrote:You could save yourself a whole bunch of hassle.

As your wife is not a visa national, she will be able to board an aircraft with a Japanese passport. She could enter the UK under the EEA regulation 11.4.

Hi EUsmileWEallsmile,

The regulation 11.4 says

"[...]the immigration officer must give the person every reasonable opportunity to obtain the document or have it brought to him within a reasonable period of time or to prove by other means that he is—

(a)an EEA national;
(b)a family member of an EEA national with a right to accompany that national or join him in the United Kingdom; or
(c)a family member who has retained the right of residence or a person with a permanent right of residence under regulation 15"

Concretely, what does it mean? They will give my wife a kind of permission the day in which we arrive in UK?

Actually she can enter in UK without problems as a turist and she can stay for six months, but of course she would like to work too. Do you think that, once entered in UK, she can ask directly for a residence card without any family permit? What I want is that she will be free to move without stress.

As said, although the UKBA gives the impression on their website that EEA Family Permit is required before travelling, this is not very accurate.

Your wife can ask to enter the UK as EEA family member (so not to enter as a tourist but getting the stamp at the border. The stamp would allow her to work from day 1). For that she will need to provide the same proof she needs to provide in order to get a EEA Family Permit namely:

1. Your passport + her passport.
2. Marriage certificate.

That's all.

There is no need to prove you have a job or accommodation. EEA regulations allows you to move to the UK without any restrictions upto 3 months.

Once in the UK, she can apply for a 5 years Residence Card using form EEA2. For that she will need to provide evidence of your employment (payslip or letter from employer or a contract).

If in future, before she gets the RC (it can take 6 months), she will travel out of the UK, she will need to provide the same proof on re-entry (with a copy of your passport). If her travel is after 3 months of living in the UK, she will need to show you are working in the UK so she will need to carry a payslip with her.


See a success story of entering without a valid EEA Family Permit - I re-entered with expired Family Permit (non-VISA national).

See an example of the IO in the border refusing to allow to enter as EEA family member. The IO was wrong. Don't agree with him if he tries to pull the same trick on you and ask to speak to the Chief Immigration Officer (the manager). See EEA husband wasn't allow to enter UK as a EEA family member.

pacman76 wrote:

EUsmileWEallsmile wrote:You could save yourself a whole bunch of hassle.

As your wife is not a visa national, she will be able to board an aircraft with a Japanese passport. She could enter the UK under the EEA regulation 11.4.

Hi EUsmileWEallsmile,

The regulation 11.4 says

"[...]the immigration officer must give the person every reasonable opportunity to obtain the document or have it brought to him within a reasonable period of time or to prove by other means that he is—

(a)an EEA national;
(b)a family member of an EEA national with a right to accompany that national or join him in the United Kingdom; or
(c)a family member who has retained the right of residence or a person with a permanent right of residence under regulation 15"

Concretely, what does it mean? They will give my wife a kind of permission the day in which we arrive in UK?

Actually she can enter in UK without problems as a turist and she can stay for six months, but of course she would like to work too. Do you think that, once entered in UK, she can ask directly for a residence card without any family permit? What I want is that she will be free to move without stress.

Firstly, it is better if you have one thread and not two (it will cause confusion). Suggest you pick this one and the other one will be locked by a moderator.

The directive 2004/38/EC is here

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/Notice.do?mode ... words=null

Article 5 was designed to for entries by EU nationals and their family members. The only people who are required to have a visa are those third country nationals who normally need to have one. The UK interpreted this slightly differently and imposes this requirement on all third country nationals. However, the same article 5 states that if EU nationals don't have a passport or their family members don't have passports and / or visas, they can still enter if they can prove by other means that they can enter.

In the case of a Japanese passport holder accompanying her Italian husband, a marriage certificate proves the family link. No problem, entry will be granted under the regulations.

Once in the UK she will be entitled to a residence card and can apply even if she does not hold a family permit. (You've already stated that you will be working, which is great).

Lucapooka wrote:

[...]everything is in the links I have provided but that would require you to actually read them.

pacman76 wrote

Sorry Lucapooka, I really read everything in these days, but I still have doubts on several things. Let's say I want, in any case, to have a EEA FP and let's say I have all the documents. What they require is also the "biometric information" that I should receive visiting a "application center". The problem is that when I try to take an appointment through the page "https://www.visainfoservices.com/pages/ ... ement.aspx" they say I first have to apply for a VISA, but according to the UKBA website I shouldn't need a VISA. That's why my questions and confusione. What am I missing?

If you wish to apply for a family permit, you can do so. It involves completing the VAF5, attending a VAC in person (most likely in Rome), having photograph and fingerprints taken, waiting up to three weeks for a response.

(or you can just go and enter under reg 11.4).

Jambo wrote:As said, although the UKBA gives the impression on their website that EEA Family Permit is required before travelling, this is not very accurate.

Your wife can ask to enter the UK as EEA family member (so not to enter as a tourist but getting the stamp at the border. The stamp would allow her to work from day 1). For that she will need to provide the same proof she needs to provide in order to get a EEA Family Permit namely:

1. Your passport + her passport.
2. Marriage certificate.

That's all.

There is no need to prove you have a job or accommodation. EEA regulations allows you to move to the UK without any restrictions upto 3 months.

Once in the UK, she can apply for a 5 years Residence Card using form EEA2. For that she will need to provide evidence of your employment (payslip or letter from employer or a contract).

If in future, before she gets the RC (it can take 6 months), she will travel out of the UK, she will need to provide the same proof on re-entry (with a copy of your passport). If her travel is after 3 months of living in the UK, she will need to show you are working in the UK so she will need to carry a payslip with her.


See a success story of entering without a valid EEA Family Permit - I re-entered with expired Family Permit (non-VISA national).

See an example of the IO in the border refusing to allow to enter as EEA family member. The IO was wrong. Don't agree with him if he tries to pull the same trick on you and ask to speak to the Chief Immigration Officer (the manager). See EEA husband wasn't allow to enter UK as a EEA family member.

Thank you Jambo! Now everything is less stressing! Thank you to all.
I will surely follow all your advices. Now I read the documentation you gave me and if I will have some doubts, I will write on this post.

Thank you for now!!!

EUsmileWEallsmile wrote:Lucapooka wrote:

[...]everything is in the links I have provided but that would require you to actually read them.

pacman76 wrote

Sorry Lucapooka, I really read everything in these days, but I still have doubts on several things. Let's say I want, in any case, to have a EEA FP and let's say I have all the documents. What they require is also the "biometric information" that I should receive visiting a "application center". The problem is that when I try to take an appointment through the page "https://www.visainfoservices.com/pages/ ... ement.aspx" they say I first have to apply for a VISA, but according to the UKBA website I shouldn't need a VISA. That's why my questions and confusione. What am I missing?

If you wish to apply for a family permit, you can do so. It involves completing the VAF5, attending a VAC in person (most likely in Rome), having photograph and fingerprints taken, waiting up to three weeks for a response.

(or you can just go and enter under reg 11.4).

No no, if there is any real need I will follow your advices... also because I need to be quick. I will read everything and will come back with some questions if needed. Thank you for now!

This may be of interest.

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitec ... iew=Binary

Also this...

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitec ... iew=Binary

EUsmileWEallsmile wrote:This may be of interest.

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitec ... iew=Binary

Thanks!

What is your citizenship Pacman?

Does you wife want to work immediately in the UK?

Details of the law that allows your wife to enter the UK without a visa even if somebody says she needs one is at: http://eumovement.wordpress.com/2010/08 ... to-travel/

Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:What is your citizenship Pacman?

Does you wife want to work immediately in the UK?

Details of the law that allows your wife to enter the UK without a visa even if somebody says she needs one is at: http://eumovement.wordpress.com/2010/08 ... to-travel/

Hi, I'm Italian.
Fortunately, I have a good job opportunity in UK so my wife doesn't need to start to work soon... but we both thing working is important also to have a social life!
I will print all the documents you are giving me!!! Thanks!

Always travel with your marriage certificate!

You can both move to the UK tomorrow if you want, though it may be best to wait for the Olympics to be over.

When you enter the UK, but sure to tell the immigration agent that your wife is entering as a family member of an EU citizen. Ask for a Stamp 1A. If there is a problem, as to speak with the most senior manager. Be polite and take names!

Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:Always travel with your marriage certificate!

i read their marriage certificicate has to be original.
would it be a problem for pacman if their (original) marriage certificate is not in english?

sc2012uk wrote:

Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:Always travel with your marriage certificate!

i read their marriage certificicate has to be original.
would it be a problem for pacman if their (original) marriage certificate is not in english?

For thqt I shouldn't have problems since I have a mulilanguage marriage certificate. It is also in english and I hope this is enough. It is a marriage certificate given from the city where we married.

I would always carry an original. My wife and I actually got a couple of extra marriage certificates when we got married. Cheap and easy to do then.

If it is in a European language, I doubt it should be much problem. I am sure UKBA can even recognize a Japanese marriage certificate!

If it is in a remote Mongolian dialect, then they may need help. But I suspect the couple can enter in any case.

Hehe we married in Italy. The marriage certificate is the one emitted by the city where we married and it is both in english and italian. We have 4 copies so I really hope there will be any problem

I mentioned at the the beginning: the Italian Government gave to my wife a resident card valid for 5 years.
I know this is not valid in UK, but do you think it could be another document it could help? Also this is both in english and italian...

pacman76 wrote:I mentioned at the the beginning: the Italian Government gave to my wife a resident card valid for 5 years.
I know this is not valid in UK, but do you think it could be another document it could help? Also this is both in english and italian...

Yes it should help. There is a common format for such things. If Italy has followed the regulations properly, it should state that your wife is a family member.

See this thread for details.

http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=109273

EUsmileWEallsmile wrote:

pacman76 wrote:I mentioned at the the beginning: the Italian Government gave to my wife a resident card valid for 5 years.
I know this is not valid in UK, but do you think it could be another document it could help? Also this is both in english and italian...

Yes it should help. There is a common format for such things. If Italy has followed the regulations properly, it should state that your wife is a family member.

See this thread for details.

http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=109273

Ok thanks,
the italian Residence Card is in an A4 format... anyway it is an official document in which it is clearly stated that she is my wife.

EUsmileWEallsmile wrote:

pacman76 wrote:I mentioned at the the beginning: the Italian Government gave to my wife a resident card valid for 5 years.
I know this is not valid in UK, but do you think it could be another document it could help? Also this is both in english and italian...

Yes it should help. There is a common format for such things. If Italy has followed the regulations properly, it should state that your wife is a family member.

See this thread for details.

http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=109273

Moreover, at the point numer 8 of the document you gave me (http://eur-lex.europa.eu/Notice.do?mode ... words=null) it is stated

( 8 ) With a view to facilitating the free movement of family members who are not nationals of a Member State, those who have already obtained a residence card should be exempted from the requirement to obtain an entry visa within the meaning of Council Regulation (EC) No 539/2001 of 15 March 2001 listing the third countries whose nationals must be in possession of visas when crossing the external borders and those whose nationals are exempt from that requirement(11) or, where appropriate, of the applicable national legislation.

pacman76 wrote:

EUsmileWEallsmile wrote:

pacman76 wrote:I mentioned at the the beginning: the Italian Government gave to my wife a resident card valid for 5 years.
I know this is not valid in UK, but do you think it could be another document it could help? Also this is both in english and italian...

Yes it should help. There is a common format for such things. If Italy has followed the regulations properly, it should state that your wife is a family member.

See this thread for details.

http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=109273

Moreover, at the point numer 8 of the document you gave me (http://eur-lex.europa.eu/Notice.do?mode ... words=null) it is stated

( 8 ) With a view to facilitating the free movement of family members who are not nationals of a Member State, those who have already obtained a residence card should be exempted from the requirement to obtain an entry visa within the meaning of Council Regulation (EC) No 539/2001 of 15 March 2001 listing the third countries whose nationals must be in possession of visas when crossing the external borders and those whose nationals are exempt from that requirement(11) or, where appropriate, of the applicable national legislation.

It is unlikely that your wife holds this type of residence card (it is referred to as an article 10 residence card). This is because you are Italian living in Italy. If you were French and living in Italy, your wife would be given a "carta di soggiorno", which is different to a "permesso di soggiorno".

In any case, the UK currently does not recognise other Member States' residence cards (for the moment at least).

If all this is a little technical, don't worry. Your wife can enter the UK as a non-visa national as already discussed previously.

EUsmileWEallsmile wrote:

pacman76 wrote:

EUsmileWEallsmile wrote:

pacman76 wrote:I mentioned at the the beginning: the Italian Government gave to my wife a resident card valid for 5 years.
I know this is not valid in UK, but do you think it could be another document it could help? Also this is both in english and italian...

Yes it should help. There is a common format for such things. If Italy has followed the regulations properly, it should state that your wife is a family member.

See this thread for details.

http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=109273

Moreover, at the point numer 8 of the document you gave me (http://eur-lex.europa.eu/Notice.do?mode ... words=null) it is stated

( 8 ) With a view to facilitating the free movement of family members who are not nationals of a Member State, those who have already obtained a residence card should be exempted from the requirement to obtain an entry visa within the meaning of Council Regulation (EC) No 539/2001 of 15 March 2001 listing the third countries whose nationals must be in possession of visas when crossing the external borders and those whose nationals are exempt from that requirement(11) or, where appropriate, of the applicable national legislation.

It is unlikely that your wife holds this type of residence card (it is referred to as an article 10 residence card). This is because you are Italian living in Italy. If you were French and living in Italy, your wife would be given a "carta di soggiorno", which is different to a "permesso di soggiorno".

In any case, the UK currently does not recognise other Member States' residence cards (for the moment at least).

If all this is a little technical, don't worry. Your wife can enter the UK as a non-visa national as already discussed previously.

The paper she received it is called exactly "foreigners' permit to stay". Anyway, as you said I will not worry about it since it isn't important for UK

I read the document at the link

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitec ... iew=Binary

and I have taken some notes on the most relevant points. In particular I think paragraphs 5.5.1 and 5.5.2 are interesting.

Could you explain me paragraph 5.5.3?

"5.5.3 Carriers liability
For the purposes of satisfying a requirement to produce a visa under Section
40(1)(b) of the 1999 Act (charges in respect of passenger without proper
documents), “a visa of the required kind” includes an EEA family permit, a
residence card or a permanent residence card required for admission as a
visa national under Regulation 11(2)."