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Northern Irish giving up British Citizenship

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tigerram
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Northern Irish giving up British Citizenship

Post by tigerram » Sat Apr 25, 2015 8:54 am

Hello everyone,

I was wondering if anyone out there could help me. I was born in Northern Ireland and lived there for 20 years; after that, in England for nearly 17. Apart from working in the Netherlands in the year 2000 for six months, I have only ever worked in Northern Ireland and England.

I have met a woman in the Philippines whom I intend to marry. I am keen on bringing her to live here, but I earn a fraction under the 18,600 figure required for the UKVI process.

Recently I have heard of the Singh principle, which would allow her to come to this country if I could prove I worked abroad in the Netherlands in 2000. Sadly, the company which I worked for is now out of business, and I have no proof I worked there. So, I would be faced with going to another EU country for 3 months or more, and working there. Better than nothing.

However, I have heard there is another option - if I renounce my British citizenship. Personally, I am slightly loathe to do this, since it is part of my background, as much as my Irish background (I hold an Irish passport and I am neither a Protestant or a Catholic; I feel I am culturally attached to both Britain and Ireland). However, if what I have heard is true, then once married, my wife would be able to come directly to the UK (England).

Obviously, I need to know if this would work, and what implications would it have for my future in the UK. Would I qualify for any benefits, should I be out of work? Could I technically be deported one day? Or would this process be blocked for some reason, and I would have to pursue the Singh route in another European country? I am unsure, and I don't want to get it wrong. Any help would be greatly appreciated, as I would love to get this matter sorted out as soon as possible.

tigerram
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Re: Northern Irish giving up British Citizenship

Post by tigerram » Sun Apr 26, 2015 11:36 am

I would really appreciate a reply for someone. I have read people like el patron and chaoclive know about this system. I am fully prepared to document my experiences and share what I have learned with others who wish to go down the route that I am thinking of. Please...somebody?

badratio
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Re: Northern Irish giving up British Citizenship

Post by badratio » Sun Apr 26, 2015 12:10 pm

Naturalisation timeline: EEU PR
Application date: 17-03-2015
Fee deducted : 24-03-2015
Acknowledgment email : 25-03-2015
Approval date : 02-04-2015
Ceremony: 28-04-2015

lake1
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Re: Northern Irish giving up British Citizenship

Post by lake1 » Sun Apr 26, 2015 12:14 pm

You might want to post your question under the European route section, you should hopefully be able to get more replies there.

I'll try and answer some of your questions but am no professional or legal person so pls note this.

If you give up your British citizenship then yes you should be able to bring your wife to the UK using the EU route as then you would be treated as an Irish person exercising his treaty right in the UK. Like you said this route is far generous than the current UK route.

In relation to your question about if you can be deported, I assume the answer is yes as you not a UK citizen and if you do anything that can lead to deportation then I guess they can deport you.

I know it's hard to renounce your British citizenship as you said cos you feel attached to it but I believe you can be able to reclaim your British citizen back if you apply but I guess this would obviously be after your wife has been finally settled in the UK and she is not dependant on you again. All the best.

chaoclive
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Re: Northern Irish giving up British Citizenship

Post by chaoclive » Sun Apr 26, 2015 1:31 pm

tigerram wrote:Hello everyone,

I was wondering if anyone out there could help me. I was born in Northern Ireland and lived there for 20 years; after that, in England for nearly 17. Apart from working in the Netherlands in the year 2000 for six months, I have only ever worked in Northern Ireland and England.

I have met a woman in the Philippines whom I intend to marry. I am keen on bringing her to live here, but I earn a fraction under the 18,600 figure required for the UKVI process.

Recently I have heard of the Singh principle, which would allow her to come to this country if I could prove I worked abroad in the Netherlands in 2000. Sadly, the company which I worked for is now out of business, and I have no proof I worked there. So, I would be faced with going to another EU country for 3 months or more, and working there. Better than nothing. EVEN IF YOU DID HAVE PROOF OF WORKING IN NL, THIS WOUDLN'T WORK AS YOUR PARTNER WASN'T WITH YOU. SINGH IN ANOTHER COUNTRY WOULD WORK, OF COURSE. YOU MIGHT WANT TO CONSIDER SPAIN AS YOUR PARTNER WOULD BE ABLE TO APPLY FOR SPANISH CITIZENSHIP IF YOU WERE TO STAY THERE FOR 2 YEARS. SEE HERE: http://spainamericanbar.org/en/who-is-c ... ted-states. YOU WILL NEED TO DO MORE DIGGING AROUND THIS, I'M NOT SURE HOW EASY IT IS IN PRACTICE.

However, I have heard there is another option - if I renounce my British citizenship. Personally, I am slightly loathe to do this, since it is part of my background, as much as my Irish background (I hold an Irish passport and I am neither a Protestant or a Catholic; I feel I am culturally attached to both Britain and Ireland). However, if what I have heard is true, then once married, my wife would be able to come directly to the UK (England). TRUE; WHAT YOU HAVE HEARD IS TRUE. I AM ALSO FROM NI BUT I NEVER CARED ABOUT CITIZENSHIP/BACKGROUND. TO BE HONEST, RENOUNCING NEVER PHASED ME AS IT ALLOWED ME TO BE WITH MY CIVIL PARTNER. WE GOT OUR CIVIL PARTNERSHIP IN THE BRITISH EMBASSY IN VIETNAM (OF COURSE, YOU WOULD PROBABLY BE ABLE TO GET MARRIED IN THE PHILIPPINES, I GUESS) QUITE A WHILE AGO. THEN, CLOSER TO WHEN I WANTED TO COME HOME FROM CHINA, I STARTED THE RENUNCIATION PROCESS AND APPLYING FOR MY PARTNER'S EEA FAMILY PERMIT. IT WORKED PERFECTLY AND HE HAD HIS RESIDENCE CARD WITHIN 4 MONTHS OF ARRIVING IN THE UK.

Obviously, I need to know if this would work, and what implications would it have for my future in the UK. Would I qualify for any benefits, should I be out of work? Could I technically be deported one day? Or would this process be blocked for some reason, and I would have to pursue the Singh route in another European country? I am unsure, and I don't want to get it wrong. Any help would be greatly appreciated, as I would love to get this matter sorted out as soon as possible.

IT DOES WORK. REMEMBER (AT LEAST AT PRESENT): IRISH PEOPLE ARE NOT VIEWED AS BEING 'FOREIGN' IN BRITISH LAW; WE AUTOMATICALLY HAVE 'SETTLED STATUS' SO YOU WON'T FACE ANY ISSUES AT ALL (AS LONG AS YOU HAVE BEEN LIVING WITHIN THE COMMON TRAVEL AREA)! I HAVE NOT HAD ANY ISSUES WHATSOEVER IN NI; AND THE SAME WOULD APPLY FOR ENGLAND. THERE ARE LOADS OF IRISH CITIZENSHIP LIVING IN GB, ALL OF WHOM HAVE THE SAME RIGHTS TO BENEFITS IN THE UK, AS LONG AS THEY PASS THE HABITUAL RESIDENCE TEST (SEE HERE: http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/england/b ... ns_hrt.htm). THEREFORE, BENEFITS WON'T BE AN ISSUE. YOUR NATIONAL INSURANCE CONTRIBUTIONS ARE ALSO GOING TO BE SAFE AS THIS IS BASED ON RESIDENCE, NOT CITIZENSHIP AND, AS ABOVE, IRISH PEOPLE HAVE THE RIGHT TO BE IN THE UK ANYWAY.

RE: DEPORTATION: IT CAN HAPPEN BUT YOU WOULD HAVE TO DO SOMETHING AWFUL TO BE IN THAT SITUATION. SEE HERE: http://notindifferentnotsceptical.blogs ... om-uk.html.

IF YOU HAVE ANY MORE QUESTIONS, JUST LET ME KNOW.


Directive/2004/38/EC
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Re: Northern Irish giving up British Citizenship

Post by Directive/2004/38/EC » Sun Apr 26, 2015 10:23 pm

Which passport do you use normally? Which passport did you use when you lived in the Netherlands?

chaoclive
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Re: Northern Irish giving up British Citizenship

Post by chaoclive » Sun Apr 26, 2015 10:26 pm

Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:Which passport do you use normally? Which passport did you use when you lived in the Netherlands?
He has both citizenships; whichever passport he uses won't make any difference.

Why would the second question be relevant? His partner probably wasn't there with him and he doesn't have proof.

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Re: Northern Irish giving up British Citizenship

Post by Directive/2004/38/EC » Sun Apr 26, 2015 10:37 pm

chaoclive wrote:
Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:Which passport do you use normally? Which passport did you use when you lived in the Netherlands?
He has both citizenships; whichever passport he uses won't make any difference.

Why would the second question be relevant? His partner probably wasn't there with him and he doesn't have proof.
If he has always only had an Irish passport and has always worked in the UK on the basis of his Irish citizenship, and moved to Netherlands as an Irish person, then McCarthy does not apply.

See https://eumovement.wordpress.com/2012/0 ... y-british/

noajthan
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Re: Northern Irish giving up British Citizenship

Post by noajthan » Sat May 02, 2015 10:39 am

This may be of interest:
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ ... tion_of_br

My wife is Filipina too - good luck.
All that is gold does not glitter; Not all those who wander are lost. E&OE.

chaoclive
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Re: Northern Irish giving up British Citizenship

Post by chaoclive » Sun May 03, 2015 3:31 pm

noajthan wrote:This may be of interest:
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ ... tion_of_br

My wife is Filipina too - good luck.
Good old Mr Kelly!

tigerram
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Re: Northern Irish giving up British Citizenship

Post by tigerram » Mon May 04, 2015 4:36 pm

Thanks a lot for the information.

I think giving up British nationality is the best way to proceed.

I have one final question - if I give it up after I am married, then will that affect the process of my wife settling in the UK? I don't think it will, and I cannot find any directive that says so, but it would be good to know the process inside out.

chaoclive
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Re: Northern Irish giving up British Citizenship

Post by chaoclive » Mon May 04, 2015 4:42 pm

tigerram wrote:Thanks a lot for the information.

I think giving up British nationality is the best way to proceed.

I have one final question - if I give it up after I am married, then will that affect the process of my wife settling in the UK? I don't think it will, and I cannot find any directive that says so, but it would be good to know the process inside out.
I gave up my British citizenship (2014) after getting our civil partnership at the British Consulate in Vietnam (2011). Renouncing didn't affect anything at all. The marriage/civil partnership still stands after renouncing.

tigerram
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Re: Northern Irish giving up British Citizenship

Post by tigerram » Mon May 04, 2015 4:55 pm

That's brilliant, that's one less thing to worry about. Thanks a lot.

So it doesn't matter if I get my certificate of no impediment to marry from a UK register office, or the freedom to marry from the Irish foreign affairs? And it doesn't matter if I attend the British Embassy or the Irish Cosulate in Manila then?

I am wondering what visa she would need to apply for once married - a family permit, a VAF5, what? Would she need a TB test? It's all very confusing.

chaoclive
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Re: Northern Irish giving up British Citizenship

Post by chaoclive » Mon May 04, 2015 5:07 pm

tigerram wrote:That's brilliant, that's one less thing to worry about. Thanks a lot.

So it doesn't matter if I get my certificate of no impediment to marry from a UK register office, or the freedom to marry from the Irish foreign affairs? And it doesn't matter if I attend the British Embassy or the Irish Cosulate in Manila then?

I am wondering what visa she would need to apply for once married - a family permit, a VAF5, what? Would she need a TB test? It's all very confusing.

I don't think it matters at all but, since you're going to renounce British citizenship anyway, it might be a good idea to do it at the Irish consulate (unless there's another compelling reason not to, e.g. cost). That way there's no confusion!

She will apply for an EEA family permit. The application document is here: https://www.gov.uk/apply-uk-visa. She has to apply online.

My partner didn't do a TB test (he's from China). There's a discussion about TB certs here: http://elm-rose.com/do-you-need-to-be-tb-tested/ and http://ukimmigrationspecialist.com/2012 ... b-testing/.

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Re: Northern Irish giving up British Citizenship

Post by Directive/2004/38/EC » Mon May 04, 2015 8:49 pm

No TB test is needed for EEA Family Permit applicants. Home Office has directly confirmed that.

tigerram
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Re: Northern Irish giving up British Citizenship

Post by tigerram » Mon May 04, 2015 9:55 pm

Superstars, the pair of you. Thank you very much :D

I was told that the visa application is free...how come they are charging a fee?

tigerram
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Re: Northern Irish giving up British Citizenship

Post by tigerram » Mon May 04, 2015 10:10 pm

https://www.gov.uk/family-permit/overview

On the first page, it says it is free. Then later on, it says that it must be applied for online and the fee is $133. How confusing! How can something free be not free?

chaoclive
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Re: Northern Irish giving up British Citizenship

Post by chaoclive » Mon May 04, 2015 10:15 pm

tigerram wrote:https://www.gov.uk/family-permit/overview

On the first page, it says it is free. Then later on, it says that it must be applied for online and the fee is $133. How confusing! How can something free be not free?
Haven't been able to find the $133 you refer to. No matter what it is free. I would advise you to fully consider your renunciation first. If you don't renounce your wife won't be able to apply anyways.

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Re: Northern Irish giving up British Citizenship

Post by Directive/2004/38/EC » Mon May 04, 2015 10:21 pm

tigerram wrote:https://www.gov.uk/family-permit/overview

On the first page, it says it is free. Then later on, it says that it must be applied for online and the fee is $133. How confusing! How can something free be not free?
Where does it say the fee is 133?

tigerram
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Re: Northern Irish giving up British Citizenship

Post by tigerram » Mon May 04, 2015 10:24 pm

If you go through the process outlined, and check fees, you come to this:

https://visa-fees.homeoffice.gov.uk/y/p ... artnership

which is quite contradictory. I'm confused.

Anyway, yes you are right, nationality must be renounced first.

chaoclive
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Re: Northern Irish giving up British Citizenship

Post by chaoclive » Mon May 04, 2015 10:27 pm

tigerram wrote:If you go through the process outlined, and check fees, you come to this:

https://visa-fees.homeoffice.gov.uk/y/p ... artnership

which is quite contradictory. I'm confused.

Anyway, yes you are right, nationality must be renounced first.
You have chosen the wrong visa type if you are looking for an EEA Family Permit.

You should have chosen 'family members of EEA & Swiss nationals' in the third drop down and then 'family member of EEA national' in the fourth = https://visa-fees.homeoffice.gov.uk/y/p ... a-national - Free!

Remember: the EEA FP cannot be used for getting married/doing a civil partnership.

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Re: Northern Irish giving up British Citizenship

Post by Directive/2004/38/EC » Mon May 04, 2015 10:30 pm

3 Select the visa type you would like to see fees for:
Family members of European Economic Area (EEA) and Swiss nationals
You must select this!!! If you are already married (or have lived together for a substantial time) then this is the one to use.

tigerram
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Re: Northern Irish giving up British Citizenship

Post by tigerram » Mon May 04, 2015 10:38 pm

Haha, gotcha both. Thanks. I didn't see it at the bottom of the scrolly-down-thingy.

It makes sense - now! :)

sp84
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Re: Northern Irish giving up British Citizenship

Post by sp84 » Tue May 19, 2015 6:11 pm

Evening folks!

Hopefully this thread is still going. Rather than me make a new post, if you don't mind I would like to hop in, seeing as this situation also applies to me. I'm trying to find out as much information as I possibly can.

I am a teacher from Northern Ireland (born there and lived there until July 2012). I taught back home for 5 years before moving to the USA to marry my now wife (we are currently living in the US). I know that if I were to get a full time teaching job back home, I would make above the 18k threshold - but with cutbacks, full time teaching jobs are in short supply, so I am seriously considering the renunciation route. I had a British passport up until 2011. It expired and now the only valid passport that I have, is my Irish one. I used my Irish passport to move here in 2012.

This coming November (Nov 2015) - I am eligible to apply for US Citizenship, which would make me a dual US and Irish Citizen. My plan is to apply for US Citizenship, while simultaneously renouncing my British citizenship. Then moving back to Northern Ireland, using my Irish passport in spring/summer 2016 ... The reason I am thinking about taking up US Citizenship is because I have put a lot of time, effort and money into the Green Card process here. If I were to leave before taking US Citizenship, I would lose all of that and it would effectively have been for nothing - also having US Citizenship means that if I ever needed to travel back to the US with my wife (a family emergency on her side etc) - having a US passport would allow me to do that easily. (If there is any flaw in this, please let me know!). My biggest concern is the timing - with the Conservatives winning the election and daily new stories about immigrants and EU referendums, I'm starting to get a little twitchy!

I suppose I should just describe what I think I know, and hopefully someone can tell me otherwise!

1. By the end of 2015, I can apply for US Citizenship, and renounce my British Citizenship.
2. As an Irish passport holder, I can apply for an EEA permit for my American wife in early 2016 (once I am no longer classed as British) - allowing her and I to move back to Northern Ireland.

Some questions:

1. When applying for the EEA permit - do I only have to do that for my wife? Or do I also need to apply for some sort of Visa/Permit for myself? Or can I just arrive in NI and live using my Irish passport?

2. Will me taking US Citizenship restrict me in any way?

3. We currently do not have any children - if we did have children between now and next year - would that affect the application in any way? Or would it not matter, as any children could get an Irish passport through me?

4. Did any of you lovely folks that went through the process, use a solicitor? Or did you do it all on your own? What would you recommend?

5. How does the permit work in terms of an "expiration date" - for example, if I renounced my British Citizenship tomorrow - then applied for and got the EEA permit for my wife in 3/4 months time ... does the permit have to be used right away, or can we hang on to it and move back sometime next year?

6. This one is a little vague - but considering the recent election, and the news stories - when would be the best time for me to begin the process - with the ideal date of moving back home, Spring/Summer 2016

Sorry for such a long winded post - I just wanted to explain about the whole US citizenship scenario, as I haven't seen that anywhere before!! Any help would be greatly appreciated!

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Re: Northern Irish giving up British Citizenship

Post by chaoclive » Tue May 19, 2015 8:38 pm

My answers are in caps
sp84 wrote:
1. By the end of 2015, I can apply for US Citizenship, and renounce my British Citizenship. YOU CAN RENOUNCE AT ANY TIME. THIS IS COMPLETELY UNRELATED TO US CITIZENSHIP.
2. As an Irish passport holder, I can apply for an EEA permit for my American wife in early 2016 (once I am no longer classed as British) - allowing her and I to move back to Northern Ireland. RIGHT; I DID EXACTLY THIS LAST YEAR.

Some questions:

1. When applying for the EEA permit - do I only have to do that for my wife? Or do I also need to apply for some sort of Visa/Permit for myself? Or can I just arrive in NI and live using my Irish passport? JUST ARRIVE, AS YOU WOULD ANYWAYS. I AM AN IRISH CITIZEN (EX-BRITISH) AND I DON'T NEED ANYTHING TO LIVE/WORK HERE. I DID APPLY FOR A REGISTRATION CERTIFICATE (ON FORM EEA1) LAST YEAR WHEN I STARTED WORKING. THIS WAS NOT NECESSARY, BUT I KNEW IT WOULD HELP SPEED UP MY PARTNER'S APPLICATION FOR A RESIDENCE CARD (WHICH IS ALSO ACTUALLY OPTIONAL). NOW, THIS REGISTRATION CERTIFICATE IS APPLIED FOR ON FORM EEA (QP) (SEE HERE: https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... orm-eea-qp)

2. Will me taking US Citizenship restrict me in any way? COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT

3. We currently do not have any children - if we did have children between now and next year - would that affect the application in any way? Or would it not matter, as any children could get an Irish passport through me? IF THEY WERE BORN IN NI, THEY WOULD BE BORN WITH BOTH IRISH AND BRITISH CITIZENSHIP, JUST LIKE YOU WERE AS YOU ARE AN IRISH CITIZEN. THEY WOULD ALSO BE ELIGIBLE FOR US CITIZENSHIP. YOU REALLY SHOULD READ UP ON THE UK/IRISH CITIZENSHIP RULES (https://www.gov.uk/types-of-british-nat ... itizenship AND http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/mo ... tizenship/)

4. Did any of you lovely folks that went through the process, use a solicitor? Or did you do it all on your own? What would you recommend? I DID IT BY MYSELF. TOTALLY SIMPLE. I HAVE HEARD OF PEOPLE USING SOLICITORS BUT, TO BE HONEST, IT'S NOT NECESSARY UNLESS THEY REFUSE YOU FOR SOME REASON. GETTING A GP TO SIGN YOUR APPLICATION TO RENOUNCE BRITISH CITIZENSHIP MIGHT BE A GOOD IDEA AS, THAT WAY, THE HOME OFFICE CAN'T REALLY SAY YOU'RE NOT OF SOUND MIND. A FRIEND SIGNED MINE. RENUNCIATION: https://www.gov.uk/renounce-british-nationality

5. How does the permit work in terms of an "expiration date" - for example, if I renounced my British Citizenship tomorrow - then applied for and got the EEA permit for my wife in 3/4 months time ... does the permit have to be used right away, or can we hang on to it and move back sometime next year? FIRSTLY, RENUNCIATION TAKES ABOUT 3 MONTHS, POSSIBLY LONGER. MINE TOOK JUST OVER 3 MONTHS. THERE WILL BE A 'VALID UNTIL' DATE ON THE EEA FAMILY PERMIT. YOU HAVE TO ENTER BEFORE THAT DATE (SHOULD BE 6 MONTHS AFTER THE DATE OF ISSUE). IT DOESN'T MATTER IF THE EEA ACTUALLY EXPIRES AFTER YOUR WIFE HAS ENTERED THE UK. AFTER THAT SHE CAN APPLY FOR A RESIDENCE CARD: https://www.gov.uk/apply-for-a-uk-resid ... d/overview.

6. This one is a little vague - but considering the recent election, and the news stories - when would be the best time for me to begin the process - with the ideal date of moving back home, Spring/Summer 2016. NO-ONE CAN SAY FOR SURE. BEAR IN MIND THE TIMESCALES ABOVE.

HOPE THIS HELPS A BIT. I'M SURE YOU'RE AWARE OF THE NEED TO EXERCISE TREATY RIGHTS, E.G. BY WORKING, SELF-EMPLOYED, STUDYING (WITH COMPREHENSIVE SICKNESS INSURANCE) OR SELF-SUFFICIENT (WITH COMPREHENSIVE SICKNESS INSURANCE).

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