Immigrationboards.com

Hi everyone!

Hoping one of you kind people will be able to help me…
I am a British (born in Northern Ireland and only ever held a British passport) citizen. My husband is American. I now have a 3 month old child who will be travelling under an American passport, although I would like her to get a British one as soon as we can. Currently we reside in the US but we want to move back to Northern Ireland for good in 3 months’ time.

My husband will have no job to begin with as he has just been made redundant here in the US, but will be looking for a job as soon as possible once we get to Ireland. I, having a very small child, will be looking after her and will not be able to work. I had hoped to be able to do some small thing to become self-employed (but with probably very little money coming from it) but am finding I don’t have any time to do anything other than look after my baby.

We are planning to arrive in Northern Ireland at the start of May and we will stay at my house (which I kept on when I moved to the US 2 years ago to get married. It has not been rented out in the meantime – just sitting vacant) for a while visiting with family and will have a base to start sorting things out. My husband will have 6 months as a US citizen with the visa waiver scheme, but we hope to be there for only a couple of months or maybe even shorter.

We are prepared to go the Surinder Singh route by moving to Southern Ireland so it will be nice to have somewhere to stay in the North while we try to sort out accommodation and a job in the South – closer to home and easier to get to interviews, etc.

What I would like to know is:

A) Is the Surinder Singh path the only way we can legitimately move back to the UK for good?

B) How would I be able to “exercise my rights as an EU citizen” whilst there if I am looking after a newborn?

C) Will my husband be able to start a job in the South immediately, simply by being a spouse of an EU citizen? Or does he need something official to show an employer before starting to work?

D) Could someone please outline the steps we need to do in chronological order, in order to successfully complete the SS route from Ireland into the UK?

Thank-you so much for any help and advice you can give me!

bluebell555 wrote:...

What I would like to know is:

A) Is the Surinder Singh path the only way we can legitimately move back to the UK for good?

B) How would I be able to “exercise my rights as an EU citizen” whilst there if I am looking after a newborn?

C) Will my husband be able to start a job in the South immediately, simply by being a spouse of an EU citizen? Or does he need something official to show an employer before starting to work?

D) Could someone please outline the steps we need to do in chronological order, in order to successfully complete the SS route from Ireland into the UK?

Thank-you so much for any help and advice you can give me!

A) No, you could follow UK immigration route instead of the EU route.
That UK route is ofcourse relatively more financially-demanding and more rigorous in terms of requirements.

B) You can't - at least not the way the UK has transposed EU law into UK law so that only 'employment' & 'self-employment' categories of qualified person are recognised.

How soon can you get back into work, either employed or self-employed?

C) No.
You as sponsor need to be exercising treaty rights then hubby can work.

D) Many SS 'success' type threads in this forum. Just search.

A) No, you could follow UK immigration route instead of the EU route.
That UK route is ofcourse relatively more financially-demanding and more rigorous in terms of requirements.

The UK immigration route would be impossible for us - I have no income, husband now also has no income and although we are asset rich (I own my house in NI) we are savings poor therefore would not qualify.


B) You can't - at least not the way the UK has transposed EU law into UK law so that only 'employment' & 'self-employment' categories of qualified person are recognised.

How soon can you get back into work, either employed or self-employed?

I do not want anyone else looking after my child, therefore employment outside of the home is not really possible. I could become self-employed, but having time to actually bring in some income from this would be highly speculative as I would not be able to devote much time to it whilst also looking after my child. We are planning to sell my house in Northern Ireland but, with the housing market not what it once was, it may take a long time to do so (even though I'm not looking for a profit, just simply to get back what I paid would be enough).


C) No.
You as sponsor need to be exercising treaty rights then hubby can work.

Would this also be the case if we were just to move to Ireland for the forseeable future? For instance, if we were just to move to Ireland as an EU citizen and family first, not trying to "exercise our rights" in order to prove anything to the UK immigration later on. Then, perhaps, I could gradually work on getting self-employed with more time. But that would only be possible if my husband could work in the meantime - would Ireland allow that?


D) Many SS 'success' type threads in this forum. Just search.

Thanks. I have been looking at the various threads but it still can be quite confusing - specially as my husband, being American, does not have to have a visa to enter the country to begin with (UK or Ireland), and therefore is a different status than others I have seen take this route and have had to obtain visas and/or permits just to get into the country.

bluebell555 wrote:...

B) You can't - at least not the way the UK has transposed EU law into UK law so that only 'employment' & 'self-employment' categories of qualified person are recognised.

How soon can you get back into work, either employed or self-employed?

I do not want anyone else looking after my child, therefore employment outside of the home is not really possible. I could become self-employed, but having time to actually bring in some income from this would be highly speculative as I would not be able to devote much time to it whilst also looking after my child. We are planning to sell my house in Northern Ireland but, with the housing market not what it once was, it may take a long time to do so (even though I'm not looking for a profit, just simply to get back what I paid would be enough).


C) No.
You as sponsor need to be exercising treaty rights then hubby can work.

Would this also be the case if we were just to move to Ireland for the forseeable future? For instance, if we were just to move to Ireland as an EU citizen and family first, not trying to "exercise our rights" in order to prove anything to the UK immigration later on. Then, perhaps, I could gradually work on getting self-employed with more time. But that would only be possible if my husband could work in the meantime - would Ireland allow that?


D) Many SS 'success' type threads in this forum. Just search.

Thanks. I have been looking at the various threads but it still can be quite confusing - specially as my husband, being American, does not have to have a visa to enter the country to begin with (UK or Ireland), and therefore is a different status than others I have seen take this route and have had to obtain visas and/or permits just to get into the country.

B) It's all about EU law. You have to be exercising treaty rights.
And to go back to UK as a SurinderSingh-er UK increasingly & further imposes that the qualified person (/sponsor - that's you) has to have been either a worker or self-employed.

Back to EU law, the work has to be genuine & effective not marginal & supplementary.
UK HO then tends to, somewhat controversially, apply its own MET (minimum income) test to assess if someone really is a worker/self-employed.

C) It's not about Ireland allowing it, it's all about the relevant EU Directive.
To reside legally and work/study your direct family member dependent needs an EEA national sponsor who is exercising treaty rights.
That is after the initial 'grace period' on arrival.

To get up to speed on EU free movement, start here - note: this reflects current state of play & may change:
http://ec.europa.eu/justice/citizen/doc ... 013_en.pdf

D) You could start here:
http://www.immigrationboards.com/eea-ro ... t=surinder

Be aware things may be changing in this whole area based on recent announcements from DC and coming out of Europe;
eg proposed changes to complement the directive & etc.

Noone knows for sure but don't take anything for granted - the goalposts may move yet again.
watch this space (this forum, the general media as well as WWW) - it could be a bumpy ride.

Thanks noajthan!

I know it's not the ideal time to try to do this SS route considering the changes that are happening and will happen soon probably, but we have kind-of got stuck with this being the only solution for us.

Up until last week my husband's company was going to give him work when we relocated to Ireland as he could do his job remotely via the internet. That all changed last Thursday when they, still professing no financial troubles, laid him off due to lack of funds. We've burnt our bridges here in the US (regarding accommodation, now no income, etc.) and have no family here either so we have to make this move at this time unfortunately. Definitely not planned this way!

We are even willing to remain in the South for the foreseeable future - just as long as hubby can work to keep an income coming in - so that we can at least be close to family and sell my house in the North (the proceeds of which we could then use to say I was "self-sufficient").

I know it's a long-shot, but any chance of using the Zambrano ruling to stay in the South and let hubby work? My daughter wasn't born in Ireland, but would be entitled to an Irish passport and citizenship through me (being Northern Irish)?

bluebell555 wrote:Thanks noajthan!

I know it's not the ideal time to try to do this SS route considering the changes that are happening and will happen soon probably, but we have kind-of got stuck with this being the only solution for us.

...

I know it's a long-shot, but any chance of using the Zambrano ruling to stay in the South and let hubby work? My daughter wasn't born in Ireland, but would be entitled to an Irish passport and citizenship through me (being Northern Irish)?

Well the universe certainly has a lot to say to you doesn't it.

Sympathies, life in US can be beautiful but brutal.
(Something similar happened to me back in 2000 when dot com bubble burst).

If you are going to be self-sufficient then make sure you have CSI in place for all of you.

You can keep your house in the North you know; just rent it out & gain an income stream.

UK plays hardball and won't recognise self-sufficiency in a Surinder Singh application so you would have to turn into a worker/self-employed qualified person at some stage.
But being self-sufficient in Ireland (with CSI!) should be enough to make you a qualified person and so sort out hubby's RC there.

Who knows you make like it so much you may stay there anyway.

As to Zambrano, I don't know about that case law.

Thanks again, noajthan!

Looks like we may be spending more time in the South of Ireland than planned, but at least we will be on the right island!

I shall look into Zambrano too as that seems to be an option that may be open to us through our child's citizenship.

Have a good day!

By birth in Northern Ireland, you may be a dual Irish/British citizen. I would suggest doing your SS route through another country, one that you are not a citizen of.

See similar thread.

secret.simon wrote:By birth in Northern Ireland, you may be a dual Irish/British citizen. I would suggest doing your SS route through another country, one that you are not a citizen of.

See similar thread.

People like you have been allowed to roam unchecked on this forum, holding and trying to force home a personal opinion as though it holds any legal force, this includes Casa, who unfortunately has been bestowed with a Moderator's post.

People born in Northern Ireland can either choose to be British or Irish, or be both at the same time if they so wish, they could not be forced to assume a particular citizenship, if the OP has not exercised his or her Irish citizenship, they will be perfectly placed to exercise treaty rights there as though it were a foreign country. Advising them to consider a different country is simply wrong.

I

lurli wrote:

secret.simon wrote:By birth in Northern Ireland, you may be a dual Irish/British citizen. I would suggest doing your SS route through another country, one that you are not a citizen of.

See similar thread.

People like you have been allowed to roam unchecked on this forum, holding and trying to force home a personal opinion as though it holds any legal force, this includes Casa, who unfortunately has been bestowed with a Moderator's post.

People born in Northern Ireland can either choose to be British or Irish, or be both at the same time if they so wish, they could not be forced to assume a particular citizenship, if the OP has not exercised his or her Irish citizenship, they will be perfectly placed to exercise treaty rights there as though it were a foreign country. Advising them to consider a different country is simply wrong.

I

Err, no they can't as far as SS is concerned. Time to engage your brain, and do some reading.

Wanderer wrote:

lurli wrote:

secret.simon wrote:By birth in Northern Ireland, you may be a dual Irish/British citizen. I would suggest doing your SS route through another country, one that you are not a citizen of.

See similar thread.

People like you have been allowed to roam unchecked on this forum, holding and trying to force home a personal opinion as though it holds any legal force, this includes Casa, who unfortunately has been bestowed with a Moderator's post.

People born in Northern Ireland can either choose to be British or Irish, or be both at the same time if they so wish, they could not be forced to assume a particular citizenship, if the OP has not exercised his or her Irish citizenship, they will be perfectly placed to exercise treaty rights there as though it were a foreign country. Advising them to consider a different country is simply wrong.



I

Err, no they can't. Time to engage your brain.....

Well perhaps you should take your own advise smart one.

lurli wrote:

Wanderer wrote:

lurli wrote:
People like you have been allowed to roam unchecked on this forum, holding and trying to force home a personal opinion as though it holds any legal force, this includes Casa, who unfortunately has been bestowed with a Moderator's post.

People born in Northern Ireland can either choose to be British or Irish, or be both at the same time if they so wish, they could not be forced to assume a particular citizenship, if the OP has not exercised his or her Irish citizenship, they will be perfectly placed to exercise treaty rights there as though it were a foreign country. Advising them to consider a different country is simply wrong.

And why ? Intelligent one

I

Err, no they can't. Time to engage your brain.....

Have think and read a little, then come back to us Laddie. Do not resort to slothful cognition as you have done here, it may behest your downfall.

As I have previously stated, it simply wrong to suggest OP could not exercise treaty rights in Ireland, there is no legal basis for that. Not all Northern Irish-Brits consider themselves Irish and to try to impose that status on them is simply offensive and go against the Good Friday agreement. If OP has not exercised his or her right of Irish citizenship, they are not Irish and cannot be considered to be.

lurli wrote:As I have previously stated, it simply wrong to suggest OP could not exercise treaty rights in Ireland, there is no legal basis for that. Not all Northern Irish-Brits consider themselves Irish and to try to impose that status on them is simply offensive and go against the Good Friday agreement. If OP has not exercised his or her right of Irish citizenship, they are not Irish and cannot be considered to be.

Doesn't matter what you think, it's what UKVI think, and they have the upper hand, obvs, since it's their border.

Next please...

And where is the UKVI policy that states this? Of course, you won't be able to provide it, simply because it does not exist, as I said, the lots of you force home personal opinion as though they hold any legal force.

With the likes of you roaming the forum unchecked, I only feel sorry for the desperate people who run here hoping for some sound opinion.

This scenario is quite very much different from a Northern Irish, who haven't exercised treaty right, and just simply relying on their Irish citizenship in other to take advantage of EC law, that is what the Court disavow, which has subsequently been adopted by the UKVI. The scenario described by this OP is different, and to say they could not exercise this right in Ireland is quite ludicrous.

lurli wrote:And where is the UKVI policy that states this? Of course, you won't be able to provide it, simply because it does not exist, as I said, the lots of you force home personal opinion as though they hold any legal force.

With the likes of you roaming the forum unchecked, I only feel sorry for the desperate people who run here hoping for some sound opinion.

Is this a piece of your brain? -------> .

I have put the question to you before you resort to personal insult, you will do well to answer it, I will graciously accept an insult from you if you, at least know what you are talking about and are able to prove me wrong with the letter of the law.

The McCarthy judgment determined that a person who holds the nationality of the host Member State (in our case British nationality) and has never exercised their right of free movement and residence does not benefit from the terms of the Free Movement Directive. This is regardless of whether or not they hold dual nationality with another member state. This means that family members are also unable to derive a right of residence under the Directive on their basis of their relationship to such a national. British citizens can only acquire free movement rights in certain scenarios and so are in general prevented from circumventing the requirements of the Immigration Rules when sponsoring entry to the UK of family members.

This is the Governments position and does not support the unfounded opinion expressed on this board.

lurli wrote:

secret.simon wrote:By birth in Northern Ireland, you may be a dual Irish/British citizen. I would suggest doing your SS route through another country, one that you are not a citizen of.

...

People like you have been allowed to roam unchecked on this forum, holding and trying to force home a personal opinion as though it holds any legal force, this includes Casa, who unfortunately has been bestowed with a Moderator's post.

The whole point about a public forum is all 100,000+ members, as well as Joe & Josephine Public, are quite free to roam freely.

However, whatever opinions you choose to hold ( including on hard-working & long-suffering Mods), remember to keep to Board T&Cs when expressing them.

The strength of the 'hive mind' of the forum is that it assesses and crosschecks and weighs all such contributions, facts, opinions, arguments.

That is how an answer (be it decision or conclusion) is arrived at and legitimised.

So it is quite inappropriate to accuse anyone of forcing an opinion. I read the post and all I see is a suggestion.

A suggestion is not forcing an opinion on anyone.

Simply post yours and let it speak for itself.

Note: there is no such thing as a single 'Board opinion' on any topic.

noajthan wrote:

lurli wrote:

secret.simon wrote:By birth in Northern Ireland, you may be a dual Irish/British citizen. I would suggest doing your SS route through another country, one that you are not a citizen of.

...

People like you have been allowed to roam unchecked on this forum, holding and trying to force home a personal opinion as though it holds any legal force, this includes Casa, who unfortunately has been bestowed with a Moderator's post.

The whole point about a public forum is all 100,000+ members, as well as Joe & Josephine Public, are quite free to roam freely.

However, whatever opinions you choose to hold ( including on hard-working & long-suffering Mods), remember to keep to Board T&Cs when expressing them.

The strength of the 'hive mind' of the forum is that it assesses and crosschecks and weighs all such contributions, facts, opinions, arguments.

That is how an answer (be it decision or conclusion) is arrived at and legitimised.

So it is quite inappropriate to accuse anyone of forcing an opinion. I read the post and all I see is a suggestion.

A suggestion is not forcing an opinion on anyone.

Simply post yours and let it speak for itself.

Note: there is no such thing as a single 'Board opinion' on any topic.

I know that you have been on the board recently, I have watched the way and manner you present your opinion , and suffice to say I have no complaint of it.

I have read a number of post from that member secret Simon, and the way and manner with which he forces an opinion as though they were legally sound is bordering on ludicrous and if moderators cannot call such attitude to order and allow them to continue spouting unfounded opinions and for you have the effrontery to question my comment against them is rather disingenuous, suffice to say if you did your job and ensure inaccurate views are not expressed with unlimited passion I wouldn't have been placed to make such comments.

And I disagree again with your idea of what the board represents or should be. The information on this board should be accurate as possible for the benefit of unsuspecting members, of course you may hold a different view seeing that you are also a culprit, dishing out unfounded opinion to this OP.

If and when an opinion is found to be wrong, it must be called upon.

I stand by the advice I offered to the OP & which has evidently been of assistance to OP.

However I am not minded to babysit this thread any longer overnight;
I can discern no value in where you seem to wish to take the discussion.

Any legitimate concerns can be raised here:
http://www.immigrationboards.com/commen ... ion-board/