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I am a German national without dependents or spouse and have lived in the UK for 24 years. I want to apply for the document certifying permanent residence, then for citizenship. I have been exercising treaty rights throughout these years, self-employed since 1999, am planning to use the period 2010-2015 as the qualifying years.

I have been receiving housing benefit as part of my rent between 2008 and 2015 and working tax credits between 2011 to March 2016, and have been living in a council flat since December 2014. I can’t get any conclusive information from citizens advice bureau, solicitors or the helpline whether having received or receiving benefits would prevent me getting the DCPR. In fact, the helpline told me that it would depend on the individual case worker processing the application whether my application would be accepted or rejected.

As far as I understand as an EEA citizen exercising treaty rights for more than five years, I am entitled to claim benefits so perhaps this is not a problem. However, from posts I’ve seen here and elsewhere I gather that claiming any benefits other than 6 months JSA is a no-no, so I’m getting worried.

So what to do? Do I need to provide information about benefits received at all?

I’m concerned that if I don’t complete section 16 in form EEA (PR) I could be seen as hiding information which could have repercussions if I’m considered to not be a person of good character.

And if I use form EEA3 or a cover letter plus evidence when applying for the DCPR, will they get back to me and ask me about benefits anyway? On some of the bank statement I need to supply, there are obviously entries for working tax credit and my local authority (housing benefits), so it’s difficult to hide it anyway.

Lastly, most people advised using form EEA (PR) as anything else would mean a longer processing time, most likely six months instead of two.

Is anyone on here in a similar situation to me (EEA citizen, enough qualifying years, benefits) and has applied and received the document certifying permanent residence either by using the EEA (PR) or the EEA3 or cover letter plus evidence?

self-employed since 1999, am planning to use the period 2010-2015 as the qualifying years.

Were you self employed between 2010 and 2015? If so, did you hold comprehensive sickness insurance for this whole period??

Suggest checking the passport you arrived in UK on back in 199x.
You may have been stamped into UK and granted ILR at that time (under different rules of that time).

Failing that, it is likely you have acquired PR sometime in the past, maybe by 2006.
Do you have supporting evidence of your activities & timeline in UK from earlier years?

CR001 wrote:

self-employed since 1999, am planning to use the period 2010-2015 as the qualifying years.

Were you self employed between 2010 and 2015? If so, did you hold comprehensive sickness insurance for this whole period??

Hi CR001, yes, I have been self-employed from 1999 all the way through and still today (i.e. including between 2010 and 2015), but have never held comprehensive sickness insurance. I didn't know I was supposed to do that - I thought this was stipulated for students and self-sufficient persons only?

noajthan wrote:Suggest checking the passport you arrived in UK on back in 199x.
You may have been stamped into UK and granted ILR at that time (under different rules of that time).

Failing that, it is likely you have acquired PR sometime in the past, maybe by 2006.
Do you have supporting evidence of your activities & timeline in UK from earlier years?

Hi noajthan. I arrived in 1991, but have not received any stamp in my passport (not sure whether I had to complete a landing card). My vague recollection is that after a period of two years I expected to have to apply for leave to remain, but when that time came I was told that it was no longer necessary.

I have been exercising treaty rights all through these years, working, studying, jobseeker (2 short periods), self-employed. I still have a lot of records, but not complete ones. I will indicate on the form that I arrived in 1991 but will use 2010-2015 as qualifying period as I have complete evidence available then.

My question is though whether the benefits received in the qualifying years would mean I would not be able to get the DCPR. And also, if using the EEA3 to apply would be a way around this.

maxima12 wrote:

noajthan wrote:Suggest checking the passport you arrived in UK on back in 199x.
You may have been stamped into UK and granted ILR at that time (under different rules of that time).

Failing that, it is likely you have acquired PR sometime in the past, maybe by 2006.
Do you have supporting evidence of your activities & timeline in UK from earlier years?

Hi noajthan. I arrived in 1991, but have not received any stamp in my passport (not sure whether I had to complete a landing card). My vague recollection is that after a period of two years I expected to have to apply for leave to remain, but when that time came I was told that it was no longer necessary.

...

My question is though whether the benefits received in the qualifying years would mean I would not be able to get the DCPR. And also, if using the EEA3 to apply would be a way around this.

Means-tested benefits you were entitled to claim should not impede your application.
Some members have reported not answering any benefits-related questions; other members have used earlier (simpler) versions of the form (no benefits questions).

noajthan wrote:

maxima12 wrote:

noajthan wrote:Suggest checking the passport you arrived in UK on back in 199x.
You may have been stamped into UK and granted ILR at that time (under different rules of that time).

Failing that, it is likely you have acquired PR sometime in the past, maybe by 2006.
Do you have supporting evidence of your activities & timeline in UK from earlier years?

Hi noajthan. I arrived in 1991, but have not received any stamp in my passport (not sure whether I had to complete a landing card). My vague recollection is that after a period of two years I expected to have to apply for leave to remain, but when that time came I was told that it was no longer necessary.

...

My question is though whether the benefits received in the qualifying years would mean I would not be able to get the DCPR. And also, if using the EEA3 to apply would be a way around this.

Means-tested benefits you were entitled to claim should not impede your application.
Some members have reported not answering any benefits-related questions; other members have used earlier (simpler) versions of the form (no benefits questions).

Thanks noajthan. I would think, too, that it should not impede the application, but have been become insecure about it after the advice from the helpline (that it differs from caseworker to caseworker) and a solicitor's verbal advice to use a qualifying period ending before I moved into my current home, a council flat.

I have read some posts of people saying they were going to use another form, but I have not been able to find out whether they did actually receive the DCPR, and how long it took?

maxima12 wrote:Thanks noajthan. I would think, too, that it should not impede the application, but have been become insecure about it after the advice from the helpline (that it differs from caseworker to caseworker) and a solicitor's verbal advice to use a qualifying period ending before I moved into my current home, a council flat.

I have read some posts of people saying they were going to use another form, but I have not been able to find out whether they did actually receive the DCPR, and how long it took?

I don't follow your solicitor's reasoning about timing of moving house and timing of your qualifying period for acquiring PR.
If you have acquired PR you have acquired it - as simple as that. What type of house you live in has no effect on that.

The relevant timeline thread will give an idea how long applications take. Your mileage may vary ofcourse.

noajthan wrote:

maxima12 wrote:Thanks noajthan. I would think, too, that it should not impede the application, but have been become insecure about it after the advice from the helpline (that it differs from caseworker to caseworker) and a solicitor's verbal advice to use a qualifying period ending before I moved into my current home, a council flat.

I have read some posts of people saying they were going to use another form, but I have not been able to find out whether they did actually receive the DCPR, and how long it took?

I don't follow your solicitor's reasoning about timing of moving house and timing of your qualifying period for acquiring PR.
If you have acquired PR you have acquired it - as simple as that. What type of house you live in has no effect on that.

The relevant timeline thread will give an idea how long applications take. Your mileage may vary ofcourse.

Thanks. Just to clarify: I don't have a solicitor, I rang a solicitor apparently helping people with applications for general advice (re declaring of benefits), and this is what they said. Presumably because council housing is classed as housing and homelessness assistance (listed as a public fund/state benefit in section 16 on the EEA PR form).

maxima12 wrote:Thanks. Just to clarify: I don't have a solicitor, I rang a solicitor apparently helping people with applications for general advice (re declaring of benefits), and this is what they said. Presumably because council housing is classed as housing and homelessness assistance (listed as a public fund/state benefit in section 16 on the EEA PR form).

My understanding is that such questions are not compatible with EU law and do not form part of valid requirements to be satisfied to apply for confirmation of PR (in terms of EU law).

An exact timeline of when you started claiming benefits etc would be helpful.
If you started claiming after 5 continuous years of exercising treaty rights in the UK (at the end of which you would have automatically acquired PR status), you were entitled to claim any kind of benefit from thereon anyways, and hence having been in receipt of benefits would not affect your application in any way. And even before then claiming means-tested benefits (including benefits classed as public funds) to which you were entitled should not affect your right to PR as long as you were a qualified person for 5 continuous years.
Don't listen to the HO helpline; they have a reputation for notoriously giving incorrect advice, especially in regards to applications under the EEA regulations.

noajthan wrote:

maxima12 wrote:Thanks. Just to clarify: I don't have a solicitor, I rang a solicitor apparently helping people with applications for general advice (re declaring of benefits), and this is what they said. Presumably because council housing is classed as housing and homelessness assistance (listed as a public fund/state benefit in section 16 on the EEA PR form).

My understanding is that such questions are not compatible with EU law and do not form part of valid requirements to be satisfied to apply for confirmation of PR (in terms of EU law).

Thanks noajthan. That's my understanding too. I think I will apply for DCPR via the old form.

LilyLalilu wrote:An exact timeline of when you started claiming benefits etc would be helpful.
If you started claiming after 5 continuous years of exercising treaty rights in the UK (at the end of which you would have automatically acquired PR status), you were entitled to claim any kind of benefit from thereon anyways, and hence having been in receipt of benefits would not affect your application in any way. And even before then claiming means-tested benefits (including benefits classed as public funds) to which you were entitled should not affect your right to PR as long as you were a qualified person for 5 continuous years.
Don't listen to the HO helpline; they have a reputation for notoriously giving incorrect advice, especially in regards to applications under the EEA regulations.

Thanks LilyLalilu. I'm feeling more reassured that having had benefits will be okay and will probably apply using form EEA3. But here is my timeline anyway:

1991 Arrived in UK
1991-1996 Working (PAYE)
1996-1999 Studying full-time and working part-time
1999 ongoing Self-employed work (one period of unemployment due to sudden severe downturn in 2000 when I claimed JSA for six months)
2006-2008 Working (PAYE) and self-employment
2008 Redundancy and unemployed, claimed JSA for six months and housing benefit/council tax benefit
Continued to claim housing benefit until 2015 (part of the rent), including working tax credit between 2011 and end of tax 2015/16 (will stop soon)
2010 - a brief period of working (PAYE), along with self-employment

According to the below information, I believe that you have acquired PR in 1996, after working continuously for 5 years. As long as you did not leave the UK for more than 2 consecutive years, you should still hold PR now. If that's the case you had the same entitlements to benefits as UK nationals from 1996 onwards.


https://www.freemovement.org.uk/how-to- ... plication/

Relevant quotes from the website linked above:

"Residence prior to the Citizens Directive
Even though permanent residence was only created as a right by the Citizens’ Directive on 30 April 2006, earlier periods of residence under previous EU law provisions can count towards permanent residence and in fact can have created a right of permanent residence, even though the right did not actually exist at that time.

Example:

In the case of Lassal C-162/09 a French national had lived in the UK working and seeking work between 1999 and 2005. She then left the UK for a 10 month period, returned to the UK to look for work again and then applied for income support in November 2006. Her application was refused on the basis that she had no right to reside.

The Court held that by November 2006 Ms Lassal possessed the right of permanent residence owing to her earlier five years of qualifying activities, even though at that time the right of permanent residence had not actually existed."

----
You should be in the same situation if I'm correct - maybe wait for seniors to confirm though

LilyLalilu wrote:According to the below information, I believe that you have acquired PR in 1996, after working continuously for 5 years. As long as you did not leave the UK for more than 2 consecutive years, you should still hold PR now. If that's the case you had the same entitlements to benefits as UK nationals from 1996 onwards.


https://www.freemovement.org.uk/how-to- ... plication/

Relevant quotes from the website linked above:

"Residence prior to the Citizens Directive
Even though permanent residence was only created as a right by the Citizens’ Directive on 30 April 2006, earlier periods of residence under previous EU law provisions can count towards permanent residence and in fact can have created a right of permanent residence, even though the right did not actually exist at that time.

Example:

In the case of Lassal C-162/09 a French national had lived in the UK working and seeking work between 1999 and 2005. She then left the UK for a 10 month period, returned to the UK to look for work again and then applied for income support in November 2006. Her application was refused on the basis that she had no right to reside.

The Court held that by November 2006 Ms Lassal possessed the right of permanent residence owing to her earlier five years of qualifying activities, even though at that time the right of permanent residence had not actually existed."

----
You should be in the same situation if I'm correct - maybe wait for seniors to confirm though

Thanks Lily Lalilu. To be precise, I arrived in September 1991, finding a job in November of that year and working continuously until end of August 1996, started studying in September 1996.

So it's not complete five years, however, potentially the years while at university might count: As I worked part-time during the term and full-time during holidays (and started my self-employment on a part-time basis), I imagine that I was entitled to NHS treatment without any extra comprehensive sickness insurance.

And there might also be other qualifying periods: basically any five year period since 1999 when I started self-employment full-time (still ongoing). As far as I understand it, the periods of 'seeking work' (and receiving JSA) in 2000 and 2008 also constitute ways of exercising treaty rights. Or am I wrong? I'm getting confused...

However, one other issue: Looking through some old (sketchy) records, I remember that a former partner claimed housing benefit between 2002 and 2006, and as we lived together I had to supply my earnings details, too. Would this have an impact on my application?


Also, I have never left the UK for more than 5 weeks at most since settling here in 1991.

maxima12 wrote:...

So it's not complete five years, however, potentially the years while at university might count: As I worked part-time during the term and full-time during holidays (and started my self-employment on a part-time basis), I imagine that I was entitled to NHS treatment without any extra comprehensive sickness insurance.

...

This question came up recently in the forum, I seem to recall the conclusion was the member will still have had to have held CSI as a student (even pre-2006).

noajthan wrote:

maxima12 wrote:...

So it's not complete five years, however, potentially the years while at university might count: As I worked part-time during the term and full-time during holidays (and started my self-employment on a part-time basis), I imagine that I was entitled to NHS treatment without any extra comprehensive sickness insurance.

...

This question came up recently in the forum, I seem to recall the conclusion was the member will still have had to have held CSI as a student (even pre-2006).

Thanks. I have never been made aware that I should have held CSI while a student (or was this only retrospectively stipulated as a requirement?).

I am getting really confused now between qualifying years exercising treaty rights and when it is okay to claim benefits:

It appears that I haven't had five full, continuous years before I first claimed a benefit (JSA for six months between Nov 2000 and April 2001 while actively looking for work). Does this mean that I actually wasn't eligible to receive a benefit at this point (nobody told me, though I was asked about date of UK entry and what I had done up to that point). Or is it okay to exercise treaty rights by looking for work, but only as long as you don't claim JSA?

In short: Does this mean that despite being here since September '91, I do not have five full continuous qualifying years without any benefits, and hence I can't apply for DCPR?

So it's not complete five years, however, potentially the years while at university might count: As I worked part-time during the term and full-time during holidays (and started my self-employment on a part-time basis), I imagine that I was entitled to NHS treatment without any extra comprehensive sickness insurance.

...


This question came up recently in the forum, I seem to recall the conclusion was the member will still have had to have held CSI as a student (even pre-2006).

But if she was working part-time and can demonstrate that this work was genuine and effective not just marginal then she should be able to make this time count as a worker (and hence wouldn't need CSI).

Maxima, if that doesn't work, why not use the period from 1999-2004? Being a job-seeker for 6 months is fine and counts as exercising treaty rights, too. Claiming JSA for 6 months is fine, it actually helps your case as you will clearly be able to demonstrate that you were exercising your treaty rights as a jobseeker (if you hadn't been in receipt of it, you'd be required to supply emails/applications letters which I believe may be hard to gather from this far back).

Don't worry too much, just pick a period for which you can gather good evidence and just send in an application, I'm sure you'll be okay.

LilyLalilu wrote:

So it's not complete five years, however, potentially the years while at university might count: As I worked part-time during the term and full-time during holidays (and started my self-employment on a part-time basis), I imagine that I was entitled to NHS treatment without any extra comprehensive sickness insurance.

...


This question came up recently in the forum, I seem to recall the conclusion was the member will still have had to have held CSI as a student (even pre-2006).

But if she was working part-time and can demonstrate that this work was genuine and effective not just marginal then she should be able to make this time count as a worker (and hence wouldn't need CSI).

Maxima, if that doesn't work, why not use the period from 1999-2004? Being a job-seeker for 6 months is fine and counts as exercising treaty rights, too. Claiming JSA for 6 months is fine, it actually helps your case as you will clearly be able to demonstrate that you were exercising your treaty rights as a jobseeker (if you hadn't been in receipt of it, you'd be required to supply emails/applications letters which I believe may be hard to gather from this far back).

Don't worry too much, just pick a period for which you can gather good evidence and just send in an application, I'm sure you'll be okay.

Thanks for all your help, but I'm now a little confused after the discussion and not sure if I'm going round in circles, so here is my making sense of it:

The discussion suggests that I need to avoid using any years in which I have claimed benefits other than JSA (which shows my actively looking for work). However, for the period mentioned (1999-2004), I have hardly any records.

And on the other hand, as far as I understand, after such period I will have acquired permanent residence status and can claim benefits I'm entitled to anyway. In that light, using the period I intended (2010-2015) should be fine, and for this period I have lots of records.

Also, if I use form EEA3 or cover letter plus evidence instead of EEA PR, I won't even need to get into which benefits I received when, so it shouldn't be a problem.

If any of my thinking above is faulty or if I have missed anything, please let me know, otherwise I will apply this way and just hope for the best!

Even if you use the EEA(PR) form, you don't have to fill in the section about benefits. If I had known I could apply with a simple letter when I did my application, that's exactly what I would have done.

Thanks for all your advice so far, I have a few final questions:

Looking through the forum, I wonder if anyone has recently applied for the DCPR without the form EEA (PR) and received it? It would be great to hear of any experiences – how long it took, whether caseworkers asked for additional information etc.

Some specific questions:

- Ideally I’d like to apply for the DCPR by letter and evidence, but what do I do about sections like ‘Personal History’ (i.e. declarations about criminal record) and the ‘Applicant’s declaration’ (e.g. correctness of information etc.). For that reason I wonder whether it would be better to use the EEA3. Also form EEA3 does not have any box to tick for ‘Document certifying Permanent Residence’, so I assume I need to explicitly state that on my cover letter. Does anybody have any thoughts on these?

- Comparing the EEA (PR) to the EEA3, the relevant sections for me look very similar, but I wonder whether the minor differences would delay processing the form if caseworkers insisted that each question of the EEA (PR) would need to be answered?

- Also, I had a bit of a wobble as there is a question in the EEA3 form, asking ‘Are you using the right form?’. I found the question bizarre as the guidance is that one doesn’t have to use a specific form. Unless they are asking if you are using the right form in terms of one’ specific information: EEA national, EEA family member etc.?

Thanks in advance!

I also have the same problem. Being confused on what form to use. I am thinking that the old EEA3 form will be better but my problem is there is no column for jobseeker on section 3.

maxima12 wrote:but I wonder whether the minor differences would delay processing the form if caseworkers insisted that each question of the EEA (PR) would need to be answered?

They can't insist you answer questions which are not legally required for residence documentation.

If using the EEA3 form, just write "jobseeker" in the employment timeline for the relevant periods.