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Hi guys,

I do have a question which I obviously couldn't find an answer to.

Assuming that somebody got the permanent residence certificate as an eea national, based on the current legislation, if he moves permanently overseas but does visit the UK every 2 years, does it mean the permanent residence certificate is renewed??

Thanks in advance

In theory, yes, because the language of the Directive talks about absence from the host member state, not residence in the UK (which is the UK Immigration Route approach).

Article 16, Paragraph 4 of the [url=http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2004:158:0077:0123:en:PDF]Directive 2008/38/EC[/url] wrote:Once acquired, the right of permanent residence shall be lost only through absence from the host Member State for a period exceeding two consecutive years.

Regulation 15(3) wrote:The right of permanent residence under this regulation is lost through absence from the United Kingdom for a period exceeding two years

But in practice, how can an EEA citizen prove that s/he reentered the UK? The passports are not stamped for entry or exit and hence presence in the UK is often evidenced by other evidence, such as bank account statements, rental agreements, etc. That is harder if you are in the UK for just a few hours or days.

The certificate is not 'renewed' however the status is maintained if absences are kept within limits.

The physical certificate/card itself is renewable every 10 years.

noajthan wrote:The certificate is not 'renewed' however the status is maintained if absences are kept within limits.

The physical certificate/card itself is renewable every 10 years.

I think you may have got that the wrong way round.

The Certificate is renewed, but the right attached to it is not.

An absence of 2 years does not only affect the validity of the Certificate, but also the rights attached to it.

@secretsimon.

Can the flight ticket the person used to enter the UK within this 2 years period not amount to sufficient evidence, or in your view a bank statement and utility will be required as well?

Obie wrote:

noajthan wrote:The certificate is not 'renewed' however the status is maintained if absences are kept within limits.

The physical certificate/card itself is renewable every 10 years.

I think you may have got that the wrong way round.

The Certificate is renewed, but the right attached to it is not.

An absence of 2 years does not only affect the validity of the Certificate, but also the rights attached to it.

Assuming PR status is still intact the holder renews their renewable card every 10 years in order to refresh biometrics/photo/worn out card etc.

Probably more applicable in other memberstates as UK PR cards will all turn into coasters in 2+ years time.

Well that will cause no problems if indeed UK leaves the European Union.

The ILR BRP card is also renewable after 10 years, however an absence of 2 years, invalidates an ILR card also.

So called Brexit will not change much in that regards.

Obie wrote:@secretsimon. Can the flight ticket the person used to enter the UK within this 2 years period not amount to sufficient evidence, or in your view a bank statement and utility will be required as well?

The thing is, I am not convinced that a flight ticket itself proves that the person entered the UK. There would need to be some documentary evidence that the flight ticket was used and that the person did actually enter the UK (I think that requires at least going past passport control).

Also, the Home Office's usual practice is that only whole days in the UK are counted as presence in the UK. So, the person would likely have to demonstrate at least two nights stay before flying away.

After Brexit, the Brexit regime in the UK, may well have a system in place to stamp the passport of European Citizens entering the UK.

Therefore the problem may not be as big as you make it, would it?

Agreed.

But then the criteria may no longer be mere "absence", as in the EEA Regulations, but the broader "residence" as in the UK Immigration Rules. As we know, short trips do not reset the clock when it comes to maintaining ILR.

What you gain with one hand, you lose with the other.

I think the ILR system is very similar to the EU system.

A person could come to UK on short visit, but still residence in the UK, without full physical presence. So a person can challenge an Immigration officer on that.

Provided the absence was not for 2 years or more.

Similar in theory, but not identical in practice, as somebody chatting to me put it elegantly.

As always, in immigration matters, please mind the gap between the theory and the practice.

secret.simon wrote:Similar in theory, but not identical in practice, as somebody chatting to me put it elegantly.

As always, in immigration matters, please mind the gap between the theory and the practice.

Needless to say i disagree, but for the sake of not diverting this thread from its logical conclusion, i shall desist from stating the reasons for my disagreement.

I believe an opportunity may arise in another thread, in the not too distant future, that will enable me to elaborate on this topic in a more detailed manner.

Obie wrote:I think the ILR system is very similar to the EU system.

A person could come to UK on short visit, but still residence in the UK, without full physical presence. So a person can challenge an Immigration officer on that.

Provided the absence was not for 2 years or more.

I think that there is a difference between the two systems.

To maintain ILR status status, the immigration rules specify that a returning resident seek admission for the purpose of settlement, although there may be discretion for some ILR holders; e.g. who are temporarily studying overseas and returning for holidays.

However, there doesn't seem to be such a requirement for maintaining PR status.

Well the difference in my opinion, is down to the different policies covering the 2 provision.

One is under free movement and the other is under the Immigration rules.

One category always require leave to enter or remain and the other category does not.

Unless a person tells an Immigration officer that he is seeking to use an ILR for Holiday purpose, the Officer has no means of knowing what the intention of the person entering the UK is.

The Usual procedure at port, is that an holder of ILR is asked how they obtained their ILR status, but they are hardly asked for which purposed they are entering, as it is always presumed that they are resident and returning for that purpose.

I stand to be corrected, but in my opinion, it is really a difference without much , if any, distinction.