EEA3 refused (in the space of 2 weeks!) What now?

[dormice]

Hello, I wonder if you can help me/ advise me.

First of all, a bit of background:

I’m an Italian national, I have been living in the UK since 1999, I married a British national in 2008.

1999-2006 : student
March 2006- April 2007: unemployed ‘housewife’, dependant of my partner (later my husband); he earned enough to support us both.
April-October 2007: employed
October 2007-April 2009: unemployed ‘housewife’, dependant of my partner/husband;
April 2009 – to date: employed


On October 25th 2011 I submitted an EEA3 form (for the period covering October 2006-October 2011).

I produced all of the evidence I was asked such as payslips/P60s (for Apr-Oct 2007 and for April 2009-to date); I produced 3 sets of bank statements as well as my husband’s payslips/P60s for the periods when I was not employed, marriage certificate, husband’s birth certificate, 2 EHICs (one valid 2005-10, one from 2010 onwards)…

Today November 5th I obtained all my stuff back with a negative response.

The accompanying letter says that:

“for periods of self-sufficiency we require evidence of bank statements showing sufficient funds, together with evidence that you hold comprehensive sickness insurance for the full period whilst you were self sufficient. The private comprehensive sickness insurance policy document must provide cover for medical treatment in the majority of circumstances, or a European health insurance Card EHIC. Please note, the EHIC is only valid when the stay in the UK is on a temporary basis. Therefore if a EHIC card is supplied as proof of comprehensive sickness insurance it must also accompany a covering letter to tell us if the intention to stay in the UK is on a temporary or permanent basis and the reason for this. This letter, confirming your intentions must be signed and dated by you and be submitted as part of the applicationâ€

[nonspecifics]

Were the EHICS issued in Italy or are they UK issued EHICS?

If the EHICS are UK EHICS then that would not satisfy the CSI requirements for the periods of time you are exercising Treaty Rights as self-sufficient - CSI would also need to cover all family members - not just the EEA national.

But it seems from your description, that they overlooked the envelope with the EHIC cards anyway.

The general advice is that you should always try to organise an application as much as possible so it is easy for them to find the relevant documents. Label stuff and list the documents enclosed.

To answer your question about quick response, it seems to be the practice of the UKBA to initially quickly check applications to weed out the automatic refusals and they are either sent back or a letter is sent requesting further information to support the application - before they start processing it further.

I thought the temporary intent question was for EEA2 and did not apply for EEA3, as EEA3 PR is for the past exercising of Treaty Rights. How can you give notice of intent ( for the future) if you are talking about the past?

If you have already acquired PR then you and your family members would no longer require non-NHS CSI for the future.

[dormice]

Hi there, thank you for replying to my post.

To clarify: YES, the EHICs were issued in Italy by the Ministry of Public Health and covered all of the relevant period.

The EHIC does not need to cover any other family member in my case because I have no family living in this country other than my (British from birth and ancestry, fully employed) husband.

As a very meticulous person by nature (to a fault, some may say!) I spent the best part of 2 days making sure not only that my application pack contained all the relevant documents, but also that these documents were clearly grouped, and clearly labelled.

Going back to the issue at hand, if what my application was missing a letter with a statement of intent (as I seem to understand going by what they have written to me), then could they not have asked me for one instead of sending the whole thing back with a refusal?

I also share your perplexity regarding a statement of intent written after the fact. It doesn’t seem to make sense, hence why I am so puzzled now.

I am at a complete loss as to what step I should now take.

[Jambo]

The reasons for the quick reply are -
a. EEA national applications are dealt much quicker than non-EEA (and most of the posts here are from non-EEA nationals).
b. The HO first screen the applications and check list the documents before passing it on to a case worker for a decision. In your case, it seems you failed in the first screening process.

You did not receive a refusal just a request for missing documents. Maybe they did not see the EHIC because of the amount of the other documents (2KG seems to be a bit over the top).

You could just reapply with the missing documents.

BTW - Why do you apply for PR confirmation? Doesn't really add any significant value for a EEA national.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

What advantage do you think you will gain be getting EEA3? You are Italian and can effectively come and go to and from the UK as you wish.

The only thing I can think of is that you might be interested in British citizenship. If this is the case and you are married to a British national then you can apply on that basis. I don't know all the details, but basically you would need to be married for two years to get ILR and can pretty much apply for citizenship straight away after that.

[dormice]

To clarify the points raised by the 2 previous posters:

I rather desperately want a British passport, and the reason for this is that I want to have full political rights: I want to be able to vote in national elections, and in referenda (rare as the latter are). I am actively involved in politics in this country, I have even been prodded to try and stand as an MP (but I can’t), I work for an MP and I carry out political campaigns. Yet every 4-5 years come the elections, I am not allowed to vote. For someone in my situation (my level of involvement in politics) this is something that is beginning to make me feel beyond sad. I won’t feel a true part of this country until I can participate in the electoral process. Call me a weirdo!

Regarding the possibility of applying on the basis of my marriage to a British citizen, here we open a different can of worms: the 3 year residential requirement is only available to spouses who are not EU nationals. So, if I was, say, Tunisian (and married to a Brit), I could apply for ILR having to prove a presence in the UK of only 3 years. However, because my passport a ‘red’ EU one, I have to prove I’ve been here for 5 years plus. This situation is beyond ridiculous and surely flies in the face of everything the EU is about. In effect, it is easier (or shorter) to get a British passport if you are a NON-EU national (and married to a Brit).

You can find this information on page 4 and 5 of the Guide AN Naturalisation as a British citizen. On page 4 they explain that if one is applying on the basis of marriage to a British citizen then the residential requirement is only 3 years, but at the end of the page it says: If you are a national of a member state of the EEA and do not have ILR in the UK, you will need to have been resident in the UK for at least 5 years “even if you are married to a British citizenâ€

[nonspecifics]

The declaration about being a temporary resident is quoted from page 17 of the EEA2 Residence Card application form; it does not apply to the EEA3 applications.

It could be they are getting mixed up with that and it is a mistake.

It is only recently that UKBA were forced to accept that EHIC cards are an acceptable form of CSI.

However, following on from their attitude towards EHIC cards only covering temporary stays, as shown on the EEA2 form, maybe they are then applying that to your PR application.

Could it be an attempt by UKBA to try and stop EU applicants from relying solely on EHIC cards as CSI when applying for PR?

Are they trying to insist that as you are here permanently then - in their opinion - you should not have relied solely on EHIC cards for CSI?

The sufficient resources can come from any legal source as long as they are not public funds, so savings from yourself or family members or employment etc. are all acceptable proof of sufficient resources.

[dormice]

Nonspecifics, on the basis of what you say, what would YOU do?

-Resubmit as I did the first time, hopefully a better-informed caseworker picks it up?
-Point out their mistake?
-Resubmit including the declaration of temporary intent?

[nonspecifics]

When they return an application, they don't explain your case. They just cut and paste generalised and useless statements about proof of the exercising of Treaty Rights. These are from ready-made letter templates on their PCs.

Personally, I would resubmit the application with a covering letter, highlighting that I have had CSI in the form of EHIC cards for the full five years and EEA3 applicants are not required to make any declarations about whether their stay is temporary or permanent.

I would also point out that I have clearly proved that I have had sufficient resources during the five consecutive years and briefly list some of the proof.

I would then insist the application is fully processed and either approved or refused based on the evidence submitted.

I would also insist that if they do not accept that my EHIC cards are sufficient proof of CSI for the acquisition of PR, then I want that stated explicitly in the Reason For Refusal letter.

Then they either approve or refuse it. If they refuse it then you will hopefully get a better explanation why on the Reason for Refusal letter.

Then you can appeal.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

Dormice, I think you are reading too much into the UKBA guidance. It may have confused you.

The section talking about spouses of UK citizens applies to citizens of whatever country they come from.

The part talking about EEA citizens causes a bit of confusion and maybe shouldn't be on that page.

Basically, as I see it you have a choice; use the immigration rules as the spouse of an UK citizen, or apply as a permanent resident in your own right.

Why don't you phone the UKBA on Monday and ask them?

[Plum70]

Isn’t it strange that my application package was returned to me with a decision in the space of 12 days from sending it off to receiving it back?

Not in my husband's case: He sent off his application 21st Oct., UKBA issued PR on 1st Nov. and docs returned 4th Nov.

I see your point about wanting to be British to fully participate in the electoral and political process. My husband who is Swiss now feels that way; he is unhappy that he cannot vote in a country he has called home for over 7 years.

[dormice]

Dormice, I think you are reading too much into the UKBA guidance. It may have confused you.

Basically, as I see it you have a choice; use the immigration rules as the spouse of an UK citizen, or apply as a permanent resident in your own right.

Why don't you phone the UKBA on Monday and ask them?

The reason why I don't want to ask that information over the phone is that I have called UKBA (around 2006 when I first started looking into the issue of naturalisation) and the advice that they gave me over the phone was appalling; different people had different answers to the same question, they didn't seem to know what was what and in fact they gave me the wrong advice. I have now learnt that advice over the phone just won't do: I want to see it written down so that it gives me some protection. I would happily e-mail them if there is such a facility though.

[dormice]

EEA3 applicants are not required to make any declarations about whether their stay is temporary or permanent.

Is there any act or regulation I could quote in my covering letter on this issue?

[Jambo]

If British citizenship is your goal, you are taking the correct steps. Better to first get a PR formally in your case (because of the self sufficient periods).

I would follow nonspecifics advice - reapply with a cover letter challenging their decision.

With regards to taking the non-EU route as a spouse, then you could have switched to a spouse visa once you married and obtained ILR after 2 years. Although this costly route would not have mattered in your case (since you are in the UK for so many years).

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

[quote="Plum70"][quote="dormice"]Isn’t it strange that my application package was returned to me with a decision in the space of 12 days from sending it off to receiving it back?[/quote]
Not in my husband's case: He sent off his application 21st Oct., UKBA issued PR on 1st Nov. and docs returned 4th Nov.

I see your point about wanting to be British to fully participate in the electoral and political process. My husband who is Swiss now feels that way; he is unhappy that he cannot vote in a country he has called home for over 7 years.[/quote]

Plum that was pretty quick!

[nonspecifics]

They made the assertion about the declaration, so make them justify it, if they are going to insist that that is correct.

It does not mention it on the EEA3 form.

See UKBA's attitude about EHIC here:

http://www.bia.homeoffice.gov.uk/siteco ... iew=Binary

Annex A

ANNEX A: Assessing whether an EEA national who claims to be a
student or self sufficient person holds Comprehensive Sickness
Insurance

A. Acceptable evidence of CSI

"5. A statement of intent is not required for persons applying for permanent residence. As such, this is not included on the EEA 3 or EEA 4 form. This is because caseworkers must now determine whether the applicant has already acquired a right of permanent residence and a person’s intentions for the future are, therefore, irrelevant.

In these circumstances, it will be sufficient for caseworkers to accept evidence that the applicant has had an EHIC for the duration of his/her five year period of residence. "

For the time you can prove you were working, you do not require CSI, as you are exercising Treaty Rights as a worker.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

[quote="dormice"][quote="EUsmileWEallsmile"]Dormice, I think you are reading too much into the UKBA guidance. It may have confused you.

Basically, as I see it you have a choice; use the immigration rules as the spouse of an UK citizen, or apply as a permanent resident in your own right.

Why don't you phone the UKBA on Monday and ask them?[/quote]


The reason why I don't want to ask that information over the phone is that I have called UKBA (around 2006 when I first started looking into the issue of naturalisation) and the advice that they gave me over the phone was appalling; different people had different answers to the same question, they didn't seem to know what was what and in fact they gave me the wrong advice. I have now learnt that advice over the phone just won't do: I want to see it written down so that it gives me some protection. I would happily e-mail them if there is such a facility though.[/quote]

EEA students were pretty much excluded from the old immigration rules. That might explain the previous advice. If you don't want advice over the phone, write to them.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

Can I just say?

Under the EEA regulations, you appear to have a pretty weak case, based on what you presented. That's not to say that you could improve on it with better evidence.

Following your original post.

1. you may have qualified for PR if you had comprehensive sickness insurance (CSI) from 1999 to 2006.
2. till April 2007, you may have been self-sufficient. Did you have CSI?
3. April - Oct 2007; qualified person; fine.
4. Oct 2007 April 2009; you may have been self-sufficient. Did you have CSI?
5. April 2009 to date, qualified person; fine.

Bottom line, did you have CSI? If not, you will struggle. I don't make the rules, nor interpret them. It is the UKBA that do that. Their latest guidance is that CSI is required. If you disagree, you can challenge decisions in court.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

If on the other hand you really want British citizenship, your marriage to UK citizen and your residence counts. Write and ask.

[Plum70]

Plum that was pretty quick!

I know; we were both flabbergasted! My hubby insists that they were impressed with his Swiss precision in filling out the application and carefully laying out all docs in a neat folder.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

Plum, his being British will make your application smoother from what I can see, if you choose to do so.

What do you make of Doormice problem?

[Plum70]

Plum, his being British will make your application smoother from what I can see, if you choose to do so.

It will, by a couple of months (from next year).

What do you make of Doormice problem?

I think he should resubmit his application with a cover letter detailing eligibility and drawing the UKBA's attention to the fact that he does hold CSI.

[dormice]

EUsmiles I am at a loss as to why you make these comments. First off, you ask 3 times in your post if I have CSI. I had clarified that point already in my previous posts: yes, I do.

But let me make it clear once more, I am in possession of my Italian-issued EHICs; these cover me for a period of almost 7 years including both the periods of self-sufficiency included in my application (Oct2006/Apr2007 and Oct2007/Apr2009).

Then you mention ‘rules’ and wonder if I disagree with them. I do not. I actually like rules, I like details, and I like to stick to such rules and details.

The rules state that EHICs are an acceptable form of CSI for self-sufficient individuals. The rules also state (as the documents cited by nonspecific confirm) that a person submitting an EEA3 does not need to include a statement of intent. Indeed, the EEA3 form makes no mention of such statement at all.

Therefore, by not including a statement of intent, I was following the rules, not trying to cut corners.

Having read previous posts and reflected upon these, my instinct now is to suspect the following has happened, in order of ‘likelihood’:

-The caseworker hasn’t seen the envelope with the EHICs at all;

-The caseworker could not understand the information on the EHICs. I have in front of my EHICs as well as the one my husband recently requested (which is UK-issued for him, of course). They are both credit-card type objects, but the UK one is less fussy. The Italian one has a magnetic strip, a barcode and, in the latest issue, a chip inside it which looks a bit like a golden sim-card. The Italian ones also have more stuff written all over such as town of birth, province of birth, gender, and the full ‘fiscal code’ (which equates roughly to a UK NI number). Crucially, neither the UK nor the Italian EHICs bears and issue date, just an expiry date. My ‘important’ EHIC (the one which covers both periods of self sufficiency discussed here) has an expiry date in November 2010. Now I wonder, could it be that the case worker saw all that stuff written on the card and then this November 2010 date and thought that it was the issue date as opposed to the expiry date? Sure, the card clearly states “Scadenzaâ€

[Plum70]

Dormice, I think that your case is fairly straight forward: Resubmit your application plus necessary supporting docs (too much and they may confuse), include a cover letter stating your eligibility and possession of an Italian EHIC and also highlight it's expiry date.

Would be interested to know how things go so pls keep posting progress reports.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

[quote="dormice"][b]EUsmiles[/b] I am at a loss as to why you make these comments. First off, you ask 3 times in your post if I have CSI. I had clarified that point already in my previous posts: yes, I do.

Doormice, if you can persuade the UKBA that your Italian EHIC are acceptable forms of CSI, great. I'm not in your situation and will never have to make an application on that basis.

However, having read chapter 4 of their guidance I don't see how they will accept EHIC.

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitec ... dlaw/ecis/

One the one hand they appear to accept EHIC in the event that someone is in the UK on a temporary basis. It then goes on to talk about it being irrelevant for EEA3 applications (because that by it's nature is not temporary).

My interpretation of their guidance is that someone who is in the UK on a permanent basis cannot rely on EHIC. I could be completely wrong, but that's how I read it.