What does "living in the UK" mean?

[miko77]

Hello,
I have been studying this page about the EEA family permit:
http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/eucit ... documents/

What I do not quite understand is: If I (a German national) want to bring my wife to the UK under a "EEA family permit" what requirements do I have to fulfill?

How do you define "living in the UK" in that context? Do I need to be employed in the UK myself? Do I need to have an address in the UK? Would make sense. If I need an address, for how long each year do I really have to sleep there? (In Germany I think we have a law saying that you need to be in the country for at least half of the year. Is there something like this in the UK?)

Many thanks,
Miko

[Azhaar]

you need to reside in the uk and exercise treaty rights (working - self employed or self sufficient)
u need to an address in the uk,,

and u cant be absent more than 6 months in one year..

if ur wife is a non eea u need to meet the above requirments in order to bring here and live together,,

[Jambo]

Better to link to your other post to get the context.

my wife and I met in the UK. I am German, she is from Venezuela. We now live in Germany, she still has a UK work permit that expires Feb 15, 2012.

She has been offered a three month contract job Jan-Mar 2012 in the UK. She would commute to the UK by plane for the work week Mon-Fri and stay the weekends with me in Germany.

If we would be living in the UK, I understand she would be able to get a work permit because she is married to me, an EEA citizen. But we are currently living in Germany. Can she still get that permit?

Or can we do it any other way? Would it be difficult for the company to sponsor her a permit for that time?

We could even think about renting a small place somewhere in the UK, that she and I can use as a second home. Maybe that way we would have a UK address and she could get that work permit? Would that work?

Your wife rights in the UK are derived from your rights as an EU national. To be eligible for a EEA Family Permit (for 6 months), your wife needs to travel with you or to join you in the UK. For the first 90 days, there are no restrictions on what you do. After that, you need to exercise treaty rights in the UK. This can be in the form of a worker, self employed, self sufficient, job seeker or student.
In practice, you just need to state to the British consulate that you plan to move to the UK for your wife to be eligible for a Family Permit. You are expected to live in the UK for your wife to continue to be eligible but in practice the UK immigration can not really find out where you are and what you do. They might ask your wife on her entries for your whereabouts but this should not affect her status if you live in the UK (but visiting Germany).

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

You have an interesting situation. A problem of fun and quality!

Very approximately the rules are as follows:
(1) EU citizen does not need to do anything particular in the first 3m to remain resident
(2) After 3 months the EU citizen has to work or be "self sufficient" or otherwise exercise treaty rights to remain resident
(3) As long as the EU is resident, the spouse can work
(4) Eu citizen will loose residence if they leave the UK permanently, OR do not meet the requirements of (1) or (2) OR if they leave the UK for more than 6 months per year

So lets consider a hypothetical solution.
(A) your wife gets an EEA Family Permit, as proof of her right to enter the UK on the basis of free movement law
(B) you fly with your wife to the UK (to enter together) at the start of her job, and can then immediately fly back to Germany
(C) she works for three months
(D) you also have a flight from Germany to London for the end of her job, which you use to pick her up
(E) she comes back every weekend to Germany

In theory this may be a decent solution. You do not have to be doing anything in the first 3 months (1). Your wife can work. You have not permanently left the UK (you have your return flight booked!).

I believe, but can not guarantee, that this falls within the rules. But doing it in reality might be difficult, especially if she comes back to Germany every weekend.

Why?

Well each Friday and Monday she will encounter UKBA immigration officers at the airport. They will likely ask her where you are. They may or may not fully and deeply understand the laws governing free movement in the EU. For the first 3 weeks she may encounter those who fully and completely understand free movement laws and it will go flawlessly.

Eventually she will definitely encounter a UKBA employee who either does not understand the law or who has a very different interpretation. They will give you wife a hard time and claim that since you are not in the UK, that she does not have a right to be there. Or even that she is illegally living and working in the UK.

She should at that point ask for a senior immigration officer to join the conversation. And hopefully that will clear it up. BUT you can easily imagine a situation where she is detained or they tell her that they will refuse her entry the following Monday or they detain her for multiple days. She would have to understand EU free movement rules very well to feel comfortable in the face of dealing with a team of convinced UKBA employees.

If she remained in the UK for the 3 months, then she will most likely have no contact with UKBA.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

How do you define "living in the UK" in that context?

Where do you see this quote?


I see the following:

We will refuse your application if:
- the EEA national does not have a right of residence in the UK

See Residence: http://eumovement.wordpress.com/2007/06 ... -question/

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

A related discussion was http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=85642

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

You have an interesting situation. A problem of fun and quality!

Very approximately the rules are as follows:
(1) EU citizen does not need to do anything particular in the first 3m to remain resident
(2) After 3 months the EU citizen has to work or be "self sufficient" or otherwise exercise treaty rights to remain resident
(3) As long as the EU is resident, the spouse can work
(4) Eu citizen will loose residence if they leave the UK permanently, OR do not meet the requirements of (1) or (2) OR if they leave the UK for more than 6 months per year

So lets consider a hypothetical solution.
(A) your wife gets an EEA Family Permit, as proof of her right to enter the UK on the basis of free movement law
(B) you fly with your wife to the UK (to enter together) at the start of her job, and can then immediately fly back to Germany
(C) she works for three months
(D) you also have a flight from Germany to London for the end of her job, which you use to pick her up
(E) she comes back every weekend to Germany

In theory this may be a decent solution. You do not have to be doing anything in the first 3 months (1). Your wife can work. You have not permanently left the UK (you have your return flight booked!).

I believe, but can not guarantee, that this falls within the rules. But doing it in reality might be difficult, especially if she comes back to Germany every weekend.

Why?

Well each Friday and Monday she will encounter UKBA immigration officers at the airport. They will likely ask her where you are. They may or may not fully and deeply understand the laws governing free movement in the EU. For the first 3 weeks she may encounter those who fully and completely understand free movement laws and it will go flawlessly.

Eventually she will definitely encounter a UKBA employee who either does not understand the law or who has a very different interpretation. They will give you wife a hard time and claim that since you are not in the UK, that she does not have a right to be there. Or even that she is illegally living and working in the UK.

She should at that point ask for a senior immigration officer to join the conversation. And hopefully that will clear it up. BUT you can easily imagine a situation where she is detained or they tell her that they will refuse her entry the following Monday or they detain her for multiple days. She would have to understand EU free movement rules very well to feel comfortable in the face of dealing with a team of convinced UKBA employees.

If she remained in the UK for the 3 months, then she will most likely have no contact with UKBA.

This puts theoretical rights in context. Can you now imagine that you are not comfortable speaking one of the dialects of the UK? How does one express one's rights then?

My experience is as follows...

Where's the landing card?

It's not required in this case, because...

(1) you're completely correct, I hadn't appreciate the European context (unsaid); 2. Does you know... (3) help, there's a nasty foreigner who knows more than me; are we on strike yet?

Say it louder and louder and the native english speaker begins to understand. I am not welcome here. Please go away.

[miko77]

Thanks for your help and advice so far.

I read more and made quite a lot of phone calls, and here's how I see the situation now:

Immigration to the UK:
An "EEA family permit", is absolutely not necessary in our case (and it almost seems like it is not necessary in most, if not all cases.)
Two ladies at the European enquiries contact centre (http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/about ... tem=217535) confirmed that, although the second tried to tell me something else, and only conceded to my point after pressed. If my wife can proof that she is married to an EEA national, she can enter the UK (e.g. via a marriage certificate). This is also in line with this:
http://eumovement.wordpress.com/2007/06 ... -question/

Working in the UK:
http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/eucit ... ts-family/ says:
under "Do you need to apply?" (for a residence permit):
"You do not need to obtain documents confirming your right of residence in the UK if you are a family member of an EEA national." Then they go on "may be inconvenienced if you do not obtain this confirmation ... [because] ... you may find it difficult to obtain or change employment." Point taken, but from this follows that she is allowed to work in the UK.

Seems like our problem is solved. But then, maybe there's some error in my logic somewhere? I also do not quite understand why there are all these permits, if in the end they are not necessary...

Is there anyone here who can comment on the above results of my investigations?

Many thanks,
Miko

[Jambo]

Immigration to the UK:
An "EEA family permit", is absolutely not necessary in our case (and it almost seems like it is not necessary in most, if not all cases.)

Well, Venezuelans require a visa to visit the UK. If she travel alone, she will need some sort of permit after her current visa expire. If travelling with you without a permit, you might need to convince the airline that she is allowed to travel as they are not all familiar with EEA family members rules. If she plan to travel on a weekly basis, she is bound to run into some difficulties if she doesn't have a valid permit.

EEA Family Permit is free - why not apply for it?

Working in the UK:
http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/eucit ... ts-family/ says:
under "Do you need to apply?" (for a residence permit):
"You do not need to obtain documents confirming your right of residence in the UK if you are a family member of an EEA national." Then they go on "may be inconvenienced if you do not obtain this confirmation ... [because] ... you may find it difficult to obtain or change employment." Point taken, but from this follows that she is allowed to work in the UK.

True in case her employer is happy for her to work on the contract without showing a valid permit to work in the UK.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

Working in the UK:
http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/eucit ... ts-family/ says:
under "Do you need to apply?" (for a residence permit):
"You do not need to obtain documents confirming your right of residence in the UK if you are a family member of an EEA national." Then they go on "may be inconvenienced if you do not obtain this confirmation ... [because] ... you may find it difficult to obtain or change employment." Point taken, but from this follows that she is allowed to work in the UK.

As long as your wife is not and does not want to work, then lack of a EEA FP or a RC should not matter.

But if she does want to work, she needs to be able to prove to a prospective employer that she has the right to work in the UK. Without an EEA FP or RC, this is almost impossible.

[dilmundesert]

EEA Family Permit is free - why not apply for it?

well, its not exactly free is it Jambo- you are required to make your way to Germany is it Dusseldorf !!, or to a Mobile biometric clinic appointments in Amsterdam !!

Each applicants must pay a service fee of €147.56 !!

... so a family will add up for travel costs, and 'other' fees.

What happened to the over the counter, easy-peasy option at any consulate or embassy ??

[Jambo]

EEA Family Permit is free - why not apply for it?

well, its not exactly free is it Jambo- you are required to make your way to Germany is it Dusseldorf !!, or to a Mobile biometric clinic appointments in Amsterdam !!

Each applicants must pay a service fee of €147.56 !!

... so a family will add up for travel costs, and 'other' fees.

What happened to the over the counter, easy-peasy option at any consulate or embassy ??

The OP lives in Germany so might not be too difficult for him to attend one of three centres in the country.
Did you try to talk to the consulate about the biometrics? This is not required under EEA regulations and in fact, unlike other immigration categories, not required for applications within the UK. Unfortunately, it is part of the visa process so challenging it might require time and maybe taking UKBA to court.

[dilmundesert]

EEA Family Permit is free - why not apply for it?

well, its not exactly free is it Jambo- you are required to make your way to Germany is it Dusseldorf !!, or to a Mobile biometric clinic appointments in Amsterdam !!

Each applicants must pay a service fee of €147.56 !!

... so a family will add up for travel costs, and 'other' fees.

What happened to the over the counter, easy-peasy option at any consulate or embassy ??

The OP lives in Germany so might not be too difficult for him to attend one of three centres in the country.
Did you try to talk to the consulate about the biometrics? This is not required under EEA regulations and in fact, unlike other immigration categories, not required for applications within the UK. Unfortunately, it is part of the visa process so challenging it might require time and maybe taking UKBA to court.

The consulate only take appointments and refer all 'visa' cases to the on-line application.

I think it's a case of making things so cryptic and obstructive that people like me go "Stuff it!"

But it's a shame really.

Have they changed the rules recently? because not long ago everyone was talking about over the counter assistance at consulates. So now it seems 80% of the world have to do it on-line- stripped of their rights to answer only the questions that are relevant.

I guess it does it's job rather well if that is their intention- its free but its not- it's simple but it's not- it's intrusive, information gathering, time consuming and costly, and almost evil in it's application.

But I guess everyone is back to protecting their borders now.

[nonspecifics]

it's intrusive, information gathering,

True.

That is life in the UK now. For everyone.

The excuses given by the Govt is anti-fraud, anti-terror, anti-drugs, anti-organised crime. All for your good.

The truth is knowledge is power. The Govt want to control people as much as possible.

The fact that the Government abuses the information held by them: selling it, sharing it, losing it; using personal information for reasons other than the original reason it was collected.

Big Brother is watching you.

[Jambo]

I don't think the intention is to keep people away. Like other sectors, the main reason for the FCO to outsource the visa process is to cut cost. Also decisions are not taken in the consulate any more but in region centres to be more efficient.

You need to appreciate that EEA FP are a small fraction of visa applications so suffers from a "one form fit all" approach. Also I guess the consulate in the Netherlands doesn't deal with many visa applications as Dutch nationals don't need one.

Did you try to fill in the form, book a biometrics in Germany and then ask the consulate for a decision to be made without the biometrics? No idea if this work though.

[dilmundesert]

I don't think the intention is to keep people away. Like other sectors, the main reason for the FCO to outsource the visa process is to cut cost. Also decisions are not taken in the consulate any more but in region centres to be more efficient.

You need to appreciate that EEA FP are a small fraction of visa applications so suffers from a "one form fit all" approach. Also I guess the consulate in the Netherlands doesn't deal with many visa applications as Dutch nationals don't need one.

Did you try to fill in the form, book a biometrics in Germany and then ask the consulate for a decision to be made without the biometrics? No idea if this work though.

Fair enough in concept, not fair in reality, therefore still inexcusable. After all- it's my information they're playing with! It's my time and it's my additional cost which I have to fork out, because they want to.....lets get it right....SUBCONTRACT their financial (and moral) responsibilities out?

The point too is: if its such a small and benign process then whats the big deal one of the admin officers at the embassy spends an extra 15 minutes every couple of months processing a Family Permit. I agree- how many of these things are there??

Yes filled the form in, then stopped at the booking part because I have more important things to do with 500 euro! especially since 6 months down the track they may try and do it all over again if I need to extend it.

Exactly which consulate should I ask to skip the biometrics?- Amsterdam? So I chase that down, then depending on their response run back to the subcontractors and try and convince them to (not) part with 'their' money,... I mean, to top it all off, one still has to get a foot in the door at the embassy- how do I do that? make an appointment and lie about the reason I need to speak to them, because its clearly stated "we do not deal with visa enquiries/applications".

So if as a UK citizen I'm frozen out at the 1st port of call, what kind of mission must I be on to see this damn charade through to it's inevitable conclusion?

[dilmundesert]

I don't think the intention is to keep people away. Like other sectors, the main reason for the FCO to outsource the visa process is to cut cost. Also decisions are not taken in the consulate any more but in region centres to be more efficient.

You need to appreciate that EEA FP are a small fraction of visa applications so suffers from a "one form fit all" approach. Also I guess the consulate in the Netherlands doesn't deal with many visa applications as Dutch nationals don't need one.

Did you try to fill in the form, book a biometrics in Germany and then ask the consulate for a decision to be made without the biometrics? No idea if this work though.

Fair enough in concept, not fair in reality, therefore still inexcusable. After all- it's my information they're playing with! It's my time and it's my additional cost which I have to fork out, because they want to.....lets get it right....SUBCONTRACT their financial (and moral) responsibilities out?

The point too is: if its such a small and benign process then whats the big deal one of the admin officers at the embassy spends an extra 15 minutes every couple of months processing a Family Permit. I agree- how many of these things are there??

Yes filled the form in, then stopped at the booking part because I have more important things to do with 500 euro! especially since 6 months down the track they may try and do it all over again if I need to extend it.

Exactly which consulate should I ask to skip the biometrics?- Amsterdam? So I chase that down, then depending on their response run back to the subcontractors and try and convince them to (not) part with 'their' money,... I mean, to top it all off, one still has to get a foot in the door at the embassy- how do I do that? make an appointment and lie about the reason I need to speak to them, because its clearly stated "we do not deal with visa enquiries/applications".

So if as a UK citizen I'm frozen out at the 1st port of call, what kind of mission must I be on to see this damn charade through to it's inevitable conclusion?

BUT I do see the logic in reducing foot traffic to the embassies and consulates- makes perfect sense... hey I'm not anti- government- just a normal regular citizen...!

[dilmundesert]

and one more thing..

if they insist on subcontracting (love that word- a who's in charge of the information now kind of word) such a sensitive responsibility out, then they can at the very least get the buggers to upload a nice fresh form....20 minutes to format, 10 seconds to upload. heck even i could do that for them.

You see it is more sinister than we think- like a net catching all the little fishies

[Jambo]

Another option you can consider is driving down to Calais and seek admittance at the port. Several members have done that successfully. As long you know the relevant regulations and provide the necessary documentation and have a bit of patience, your partner will be granted entry.

[dilmundesert]

Another option you can consider is driving down to Calais and seek admittance at the port. Several members have done that successfully. As long you know the relevant regulations and provide the necessary documentation and have a bit of patience, your partner will be granted entry.

or just not go at all

out of the pan into the fire springs to mind. Hitchens has gone off to meet his maker, and Cameron is calling on 'religion' to save the country... do fishes normally swim with or against the current?

yes, one of the options, thanks Jambo.