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Spouse visa appeal (article 8 human rights)

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Muhammad jabbar 1993
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Spouse visa appeal (article 8 human rights)

Post by Muhammad jabbar 1993 » Wed Sep 30, 2020 12:10 am

I am a Pakistani citizen. In 2019 I got married with a British girl who had 3 kids from previous marriage. She can't work full time because of 3 kids so was unable to fulfill financial requirements.
We applied for spouse visa on basis of human rights and attached letter explaining that because of 3 kids she can't work full time and she can't leave UK as kids have settled life there. Kids are 7, 4 and 2 years old. Moreover there biological father have parental responsibility also that stops her to leave UK.

But home office refused our application saying that we don't meet financial requirements. They also didn't considered 3rd party support and said there is no much information about any exceptional circumstances. While it was very clear in our letter that she can't take kids out of UK and she can't leave them also as she have responsibilities of kids. Kids living with her they are British and moving out even not good for their interest.
Refusal was a direct impact on mother and kids sattled life as she will not have any alternative for this but us to stay apart.
They gave us right of appeal. We are just so upset and stressed about all this visa process kindly can anyone suggest what we should do next.
Thank you.

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Re: Spouse visa appeal (article 8 human rights)

Post by vinny » Wed Sep 30, 2020 1:07 am

This is not intended to be legal or professional advice in any jurisdiction. Please click on any given links for further information. Refer to the source of any quotes.
We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children.

Muhammad jabbar 1993
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Re: Spouse visa refusal (article 8 human rights)

Post by Muhammad jabbar 1993 » Wed Sep 30, 2020 2:58 pm

vinny wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 1:07 am
Appeal?
Dear Sir,
We submitted application and attached a letter explaining exceptional circumstances and we had a 3rd party support also. But our application was rejected and they gave us right of appeal. Kindly can you suggest what we should do or what type of documents are needed. We have exceptional circumstances as I mentioned in my previous post.
Thank you so much Sir.

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Re: Spouse visa appeal (article 8 human rights)

Post by JB007 » Wed Sep 30, 2020 5:31 pm

Muhammad jabbar 1993 wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 12:10 am
I am a Pakistani citizen. In 2019 I got married with a British girl who had 3 kids from previous marriage. She can't work full time because of 3 kids so was unable to fulfill financial requirements.
We applied for spouse visa on basis of human rights and attached letter explaining that because of 3 kids she can't work full time and she can't leave UK as kids have settled life there. Kids are 7, 4 and 2 years old.
It sounds like she is living on welfare benefits? She can work and get a % percentage of her childcare paid. She is only getting Tax Credits/Universal Credit for 2 children because of the 2 child limit, but there is no limit for the number of children she can have childcare for.

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Re: Spouse visa appeal (article 8 human rights)

Post by JB007 » Wed Sep 30, 2020 5:44 pm

How much savings have you got? From that she will be able to work out how much she needs to earn to be able to sponsor you.

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Re: Spouse visa appeal (article 8 human rights)

Post by seagul » Wed Sep 30, 2020 6:35 pm

Muhammad jabbar 1993 wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 12:10 am
I am a Pakistani citizen. In 2019 I got married with a British girl who had 3 kids from previous marriage.
Where were you married with her?
If UK, then was that an Islamic marriage only?
The opinion expressed as above is neither a professional advice nor contesting/competing to other member's opinion/advice.

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Re: Spouse visa appeal (article 8 human rights)

Post by Muhammad jabbar 1993 » Thu Oct 01, 2020 12:02 am

JB007 wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 5:31 pm
Muhammad jabbar 1993 wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 12:10 am
I am a Pakistani citizen. In 2019 I got married with a British girl who had 3 kids from previous marriage. She can't work full time because of 3 kids so was unable to fulfill financial requirements.
We applied for spouse visa on basis of human rights and attached letter explaining that because of 3 kids she can't work full time and she can't leave UK as kids have settled life there. Kids are 7, 4 and 2 years old.


It sounds like she is living on welfare benefits? She can work and get a % percentage of her childcare paid. She is only getting Tax Credits/Universal Credit for 2 children because of the 2 child limit, but there is no limit for the number of children she can have childcare for.

Dear Sir,

My wife had permanent part time job she was working 2 night shifts in a week as her mother drives 45 minutes to come at her home to be with kids. From part time job and including all other benefits was making £13205.04 per year.
On the basis of exceptional circumstances we had 3rd party support also from my family relative who earn £40957.47 per year. We attached letter referring to 3 British kids who have settled life with their mother in UK and their biological father have parental responsibility that stops her to move kids out of Uk. But they refused it saying we didn't provided much information about exceptional circumstances.

Please suggest us.

Thank you so much for your help and guidance.

Muhammad jabbar 1993
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Re: Spouse visa appeal (article 8 human rights)

Post by Muhammad jabbar 1993 » Thu Oct 01, 2020 12:05 am

seagul wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 6:35 pm
Muhammad jabbar 1993 wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 12:10 am
I am a Pakistani citizen. In 2019 I got married with a British girl who had 3 kids from previous marriage.
Where were you married with her?
If UK, then was that an Islamic marriage only?
Dear sir,
We got married in Pakistan and had Islamic wedding ceremony.

Thank you so much sir.

vinny
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Re: Spouse visa appeal (article 8 human rights)

Post by vinny » Thu Oct 01, 2020 12:16 am

This is not intended to be legal or professional advice in any jurisdiction. Please click on any given links for further information. Refer to the source of any quotes.
We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children.

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Re: Spouse visa appeal (article 8 human rights)

Post by JB007 » Thu Oct 01, 2020 9:20 am

Muhammad jabbar 1993 wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 12:02 am
JB007 wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 5:31 pm
It sounds like she is living on welfare benefits? She can work and get a % percentage of her childcare paid. She is only getting Tax Credits/Universal Credit for 2 children because of the 2 child limit, but there is no limit for the number of children she can have childcare for.

My wife had permanent part time job she was working 2 night shifts in a week as her mother drives 45 minutes to come at her home to be with kids.
...
From part time job and including all other benefits was making £13205.04 per year.
...
Please suggest us.

Why not get a day job and use a childminder? The state will pay a large percentage of her childcare costs and you can sent her money too to help with the cost of your children.

She can't use the low income welfare benefits she has asked for, as part of her income to show she has the earnings to sponsor you.

To work out how much she will have to earn each week to sponsor you, how much savings have you got?
JB007 wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 5:44 pm
How much savings have you got? From that she will be able to work out how much she needs to earn to be able to sponsor you.

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Re: Spouse visa appeal (article 8 human rights)

Post by vinny » Thu Oct 01, 2020 9:37 am

Muhammad jabbar 1993 wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 12:02 am
My wife had permanent part time job she was working 2 night shifts in a week as her mother drives 45 minutes to come at her home to be with kids. From part time job and including all other benefits was making £13205.04 per year.
Which other benefits is she receiving?
This is not intended to be legal or professional advice in any jurisdiction. Please click on any given links for further information. Refer to the source of any quotes.
We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children.

vinny
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Re: Spouse visa appeal (article 8 human rights)

Post by vinny » Thu Oct 01, 2020 9:47 am

Muhammad jabbar 1993 wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 12:02 am
On the basis of exceptional circumstances we had 3rd party support also from my family relative who earn £40957.47 per year.
See also Financial support from a third party.
This is not intended to be legal or professional advice in any jurisdiction. Please click on any given links for further information. Refer to the source of any quotes.
We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children.

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Re: Spouse visa appeal (article 8 human rights)

Post by JB007 » Thu Oct 01, 2020 10:15 am

vinny wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 9:37 am
Muhammad jabbar 1993 wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 12:02 am
My wife had permanent part time job she was working 2 night shifts in a week as her mother drives 45 minutes to come at her home to be with kids. From part time job and including all other benefits was making £13205.04 per year.
Which other benefits is she receiving?

Based on the information he has given, it doesn't look like his wife is claiming DLA/PIP or Carer's Allowance.

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Re: Spouse visa appeal (article 8 human rights)

Post by JB007 » Thu Oct 01, 2020 10:37 am

vinny wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 9:47 am
Muhammad jabbar 1993 wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 12:02 am
On the basis of exceptional circumstances we had 3rd party support also from my family relative who earn £40957.47 per year.
See also Financial support from a third party.
Does that mean they have to keep the person who gets the visa?

It sounds like his wife has been claiming low income benefits for quite some time and is likely on the old benefits, Child Tax Credit, likely Working Tax Credit as she works two evenings a week and is perhaps trying to work 16 hours a week to get the WTC benefit too? And I assume, the benefits Housing Benefit for her rent and Council Tax Benefit/Reduction? Income Support for a single parent too?

All of those low income welfare benefits are replaced by Universal Credit and the OP being in the UK will move his wife to Universal Credit, with no transitional protection (from lower benefits amount being paid). Universal Credit also has the 2 child limit.

Muhammad jabbar 1993
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Re: Spouse visa appeal (article 8 human rights)

Post by Muhammad jabbar 1993 » Thu Oct 01, 2020 12:27 pm

vinny wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 9:47 am
Muhammad jabbar 1993 wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 12:02 am
On the basis of exceptional circumstances we had 3rd party support also from my family relative who earn £40957.47 per year.
See also Financial support from a third party.
Yes we submitted valid all documents 6 monts Payslips, sponsor letter, 6 months bank statement, letter from employer. But issue is they not considered 3rd party support as they said no information about exceptional circumstances while we attached a letter explaining whole situation about kids. And refusal clearly put us in really hard situation. If my wife move out of UK kids will be effected and even their biological father who is settled in UK have parental rights on kids which stops her to do so.

Please let us know if our exceptional circumstances are not valid. And why they did not considered a 3rd party support.?
Thank you for all you help.

Muhammad jabbar 1993
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Re: Spouse visa appeal (article 8 human rights)

Post by Muhammad jabbar 1993 » Thu Oct 01, 2020 1:22 pm

JB007 wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 10:37 am
vinny wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 9:47 am
Muhammad jabbar 1993 wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 12:02 am
On the basis of exceptional circumstances we had 3rd party support also from my family relative who earn £40957.47 per year.
See also Financial support from a third party.
Does that mean they have to keep the person who gets the visa?

It sounds like his wife has been claiming low income benefits for quite some time and is likely on the old benefits, Child Tax Credit, likely Working Tax Credit as she works two evenings a week and is perhaps trying to work 16 hours a week to get the WTC benefit too? And I assume, the benefits Housing Benefit for her rent and Council Tax Benefit/Reduction? Income Support for a single parent too?

All of those low income welfare benefits are replaced by Universal Credit and the OP being in the UK will move his wife to Universal Credit, with no transitional protection (from lower benefits amount being paid). Universal Credit also has the 2 child limit.
Sir
My wife was earning £6888.96 annual from part time job and she receive £4000.44 per year from her ex-husband for child maintenance and child benefit £48.10 per week that is £2315.64 per year. So total calculation was £13205.4 annually. We attached all documents in correct order.
And we don't have savings but have my uncle who happily want to support me but thy not considering 3rd party as saying we don't have exceptional circumstances. When it is clear that in our case we have exceptional circumstances.
I just want ask what do you think why they did not considered our exceptional circumstances.
Thank you.

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Re: Spouse visa appeal (article 8 human rights)

Post by THO » Thu Oct 01, 2020 2:00 pm

Muhammad,

Your issue is, you are not eligible for a visa, didn't you check what would be needed before you got married, or did you think you could find a way around them? You do not have any savings, your wife does not earn enough, and in-fact relies heavily on the state, and there is no clear evidence that you have the funds to pay the Spouse Visa fee or IHS fees too.

All too often people do anything they can to get to the UK, which includes marrying a UK citizen and this is why the visa has restrictions. I'm not saying you are not genuine, but why did you chose someone in the UK and not Pakistan? That is what the HO will be thinking, that this is not genuine.

Sorry, but I think you will not be successful and it will be a long time to settle this.

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Re: Spouse visa appeal (article 8 human rights)

Post by Muhammad jabbar 1993 » Thu Oct 01, 2020 3:19 pm

THO wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 2:00 pm
Muhammad,

Your issue is, you are not eligible for a visa, didn't you check what would be needed before you got married, or did you think you could find a way around them? You do not have any savings, your wife does not earn enough, and in-fact relies heavily on the state, and there is no clear evidence that you have the funds to pay the Spouse Visa fee or IHS fees too.

All too often people do anything they can to get to the UK, which includes marrying a UK citizen and this is why the visa has restrictions. I'm not saying you are not genuine, but why did you chose someone in the UK and not Pakistan? That is what the HO will be thinking, that this is not genuine.

Sorry, but I think you will not be successful and it will be a long time to settle this.
Dear sir we been in relation from 2 years and we have a very loving relation. We went through for interview also we satisfied them the Guinness of our relation and we fulfill all requirements of application. Only financial requirement was issue but my uncle offered us for support.

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Re: Spouse visa appeal (article 8 human rights)

Post by Zerubbabel » Thu Oct 01, 2020 7:25 pm

Hello,

I think the major weakness of the case, is that the kids are not yours. Your wife had these kids from a previous marriage and their father could be just around the corner.

What's your relationship with these kids? Did you raise them?

If there is no strong documented relationship with the kids (that's to say you are the father figure for them), then the refusal of the visa separates you "only" from your wife.

Being separated from your wife, doesn't trigger the exceptional circumstances case. Otherwise, any British person can claim these circumstances in order to avoid meeting the financial requirements directly.

You are not alone in this situation. I see routinely people separated from their other half and sometimes even with their own biological children due to inability to meet financial criteria.

You can read more in the official guidance here:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... .0-ext.pdf

See from page 62 onward.

To put it simply, a British citizen has the right to travel abroad and marry a person of his/her liking. No issue with that. But there is no absolute right to bring that person back with you to the UK.

The fact that the British person cannot leave the UK due to family obligations, job, business, health... usually doesn't create a dispensation from meeting the financial requirements.

Some people have been refused even after meeting the financial requirements. As there is no absolute right to bring a spouse to the UK, the Home Office sometimes turn around and tells the British person: just leave the UK and go to your spouse country to live there as a couple.

Really, the spouse route in the UK is very weak and doesn't have automatic and strong entitlement to immigration.

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Re: Spouse visa appeal (article 8 human rights)

Post by Muhammad jabbar 1993 » Thu Oct 01, 2020 7:53 pm

Zerubbabel wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 7:25 pm
Hello,

I think the major weakness of the case, is that the kids are not yours. Your wife had these kids from a previous marriage and their father could be just around the corner.

What's your relationship with these kids? Did you raise them?

If there is no strong documented relationship with the kids (that's to say you are the father figure for them), then the refusal of the visa separates you "only" from your wife.

Being separated from your wife, doesn't trigger the exceptional circumstances case. Otherwise, any British person can claim these circumstances in order to avoid meeting the financial requirements directly.

You are not alone in this situation. I see routinely people separated from their other half and sometimes even with their own biological children due to inability to meet financial criteria.

You can read more in the official guidance here:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... .0-ext.pdf

See from page 62 onward.

To put it simply, a British citizen has the right to travel abroad and marry a person of his/her liking. No issue with that. But there is no absolute right to bring that person back with you to the UK.

The fact that the British person cannot leave the UK due to family obligations, job, business, health... usually doesn't create a dispensation from meeting the financial requirements.

Some people have been refused even after meeting the financial requirements. As there is no absolute right to bring a spouse to the UK, the Home Office sometimes turn around and tells the British person: just leave the UK and go to your spouse country to live there as a couple.

Really, the spouse route in the UK is very weak and doesn't have automatic and strong entitlement to immigration.

Thank you so much for your response.

In our case it's impossible for my wife to move out of UK as ...
1. kids are under 18 age and living with their mother.
2. Their biological father have parental responsibility that stops her to move kids out of UK.
3. If she is forced to move out to live with me it clearly will effect kids life.
4. My wife and kids are British they only know English language.
5. They never lived in any other country more than 2 months.
6. It will not be easy for them to even adjust in Pakistan as the culture, language a lot is totally different.


We have a list of hurdles but we will be so thankful if anyone can advise us to add a strong point.

And clearly we have a genuine 3rd party support that shows I will not be any burden on public funds.
If they consider our 3rd party support we will not have any other issue.
Thank you.

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Re: Spouse visa appeal (article 8 human rights)

Post by seagul » Thu Oct 01, 2020 8:14 pm

Muhammad jabbar 1993 wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 7:53 pm

1. kids are under 18 age and living with their mother.
2. Their biological father have parental responsibility that stops her to move kids out of UK.
In my opinion, the third party support might only be played successfully where if your wife has the sole custody which isn't the case in your circumstances, means no exceptional circumstances are involved, as the biological father is available to supervise the kids. Can't your uncle lend you £62500 for 6 months because the same or even greater time you might have to consume over appeals.
The opinion expressed as above is neither a professional advice nor contesting/competing to other member's opinion/advice.

Muhammad jabbar 1993
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Re: Spouse visa appeal (article 8 human rights)

Post by Muhammad jabbar 1993 » Thu Oct 01, 2020 11:04 pm

Muhammad jabbar 1993 wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 7:53 pm
Zerubbabel wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 7:25 pm
Hello,

I think the major weakness of the case, is that the kids are not yours. Your wife had these kids from a previous marriage and their father could be just around the corner.

What's your relationship with these kids? Did you raise them?

If there is no strong documented relationship with the kids (that's to say you are the father figure for them), then the refusal of the visa separates you "only" from your wife.

Being separated from your wife, doesn't trigger the exceptional circumstances case. Otherwise, any British person can claim these circumstances in order to avoid meeting the financial requirements directly.

You are not alone in this situation. I see routinely people separated from their other half and sometimes even with their own biological children due to inability to meet financial criteria.

You can read more in the official guidance here:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... .0-ext.pdf

See from page 62 onward.

To put it simply, a British citizen has the right to travel abroad and marry a person of his/her liking. No issue with that. But there is no absolute right to bring that person back with you to the UK.

The fact that the British person cannot leave the UK due to family obligations, job, business, health... usually doesn't create a dispensation from meeting the financial requirements.

Some people have been refused even after meeting the financial requirements. As there is no absolute right to bring a spouse to the UK, the Home Office sometimes turn around and tells the British person: just leave the UK and go to your spouse country to live there as a couple.

Really, the spouse route in the UK is very weak and doesn't have automatic and strong entitlement to immigration.

Thank you so much for your response.

In our case it's impossible for my wife to move out of UK as ...
1. kids are under 18 age and living with their mother.
2. Their biological father have parental responsibility that stops her to move kids out of UK.
3. If she is forced to move out to live with me it clearly will effect kids life.
4. My wife and kids are British they only know English language.
5. They never lived in any other country more than 2 months.
6. It will not be easy for them to even adjust in Pakistan as the culture, language a lot is totally different.
7. They all are British and don't have any other nationality or visa to move Pakistan.
8. We have tried to sort it but we can't see any solution where kids can have a best life.
9. I have a strong bond as a parent to kids. As I be active in there lives.
10. Kids are attached to me more than their biological father.
11. I also support my wife some times. I can't do regularly because of big economic difference.
12. If they say there is no exceptional circumstances if separate couples only. Then definitely my we will not have option and if my wife will be forced to move out it will effect 4 of them life. It's easy to move one person than 4.

We have a list of hurdles but we will be so thankful if anyone can advise us to add a strong point.

And clearly we have a genuine 3rd party support that shows I will not be any burden on public funds.
If they consider our 3rd party support we will not have any other issue.
Thank you.

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Re: Spouse visa appeal (article 8 human rights)

Post by Zerubbabel » Fri Oct 02, 2020 8:54 am

I think you are focusing too much on the kids in the belief that they would trigger exceptional circumstances.

In this case, they don't as they are not your kids.

The mere fact that if the visa is refused, you would be separated from your wife doesn't trigger exceptional circumstances as all spouse visa refusals lead to separation of the couple.

The third party support is not accepted routinely. It's only accepted when you can justify exceptional circumstances other than just being separated from your wife.

You may still come to the UK using a different route such as Tier 2, Start-up visa... etc but I don't see how you can qualify for spouse visa in the UK with the circumstances you just described.

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Re: Spouse visa appeal (article 8 human rights)

Post by Muhammad jabbar 1993 » Fri Oct 02, 2020 12:11 pm

Zerubbabel wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 8:54 am
I think you are focusing too much on the kids in the belief that they would trigger exceptional circumstances.

In this case, they don't as they are not your kids.

The mere fact that if the visa is refused, you would be separated from your wife doesn't trigger exceptional circumstances as all spouse visa refusals lead to separation of the couple.

The third party support is not accepted routinely. It's only accepted when you can justify exceptional circumstances other than just being separated from your wife.

You may still come to the UK using a different route such as Tier 2, Start-up visa... etc but I don't see how you can qualify for spouse visa in the UK with the circumstances you just described.
Thank you sir for your response.
Actually I have more role as a father in kids life than their biological father. Their biological father just pay for child maintenance. He not there for them to supervise them. And my wife is alone with 3 kids that makes situation for her hard. She can't stay away from kids as any mother would never do that. Doing everything on her own and being a single parent make a lot of things hard for her. She even take tablets for stress to help herself and kids also not having a relation of father as every other kid have. If there was no any condition that effect any ones life by separating me and my wife then I also can agree with it that we then will sort and be able to start a life in Pakistan or any other country.
You can tell a person to leave UK and go live with your spouse if it's not effecting a child whose under 18. But her leaving will effect 4 lifes and us separating will put her and kids to live without a husband and a father.(as her ex not involved but still he pays for kids and have legal rights).

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Re: Spouse visa appeal (article 8 human rights)

Post by Zerubbabel » Fri Oct 02, 2020 12:55 pm

That's why I asked you earlier on if you raised the kids.

If you lived with them extensively, raised them, they call you "dad"... that may create the exceptional circumstances.

The rest, doesn't weights too much. You can't tell the Home Office "these kids needs me as a father figure to help their mum to raise them".

Honestly, I don't think you are realising yet what you signed up for. In the UK, being married doesn't open any automatic immigration right.

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