A quick question or two!

[andy and ann]

Hi there people.

I wrote recently about my dilemma and recieved some wonderful advice. I want to confirm a few things before I take what could be a big gamble! I am a UK citizen and married my filipina wife here in the Philippines. We are thinking of taking the 'excercising economic treaty right' route. Her family visit visa was denied and at the same time we found out she was pregnant. I really just want to clear a few things up.

She can go to any EU country with me, without a visa?

When we are in the EU country we apply for the residence card for her? Both of us? How long does that take?

How long after this can we then apply for the EEA family permit to the UK?

The reason for asking these questions is that we want to get this all sorted out before the baby is born. I can easily get a job in Bulgaria for instance, but we would want to move quickly to the UK so that we are settled there before the baby is born.

In the following link:

http://www.ukvisas.gov.uk/en/ecg/eunati ... t#14763111

It does not matter if the only reason the British national went to another Member State was to exercise an economic Treaty right was so that he/ she could come back to the UK with his/ her family members under EC law.

It seems to me that we could then apply to go to the UK quickly, after I have been working there for just a few weeks. As in that quote above they can see its a bit of a loophole.

As you can imagine the clock is ticking and we don't want to be in limbo somewhere when the baby is due! FYI she is 2.5 months pregnant.


Many thanks for advice.

[Wanderer]

I think the consensus for the time needed to be exercising a treaty right is six months, minimum three.

[andy and ann]

Thanks for that Wanderer. I haven't seen anything to do with the timescales at all and have done a lot of surfing. As you can imagine, I have to get every detail worked out perfectly. So I could apply after 3 months, and how long does that take?

[Wanderer]

Thanks for that Wanderer. I haven't seen anything to do with the timescales at all and have done a lot of surfing. As you can imagine, I have to get every detail worked out perfectly. So I could apply after 3 months, and how long does that take?

I'd go with six months, I feel that the as the std schengen visa is three months, an app too early might be seen as not exercising a treaty right - merely just a long holiday.

Suggest u repost this in the europe section, most expert folks than me there.

[andy and ann]

Thanks for the advice. I will take my chances here as I was well looked after last time, and the European section says not to post UK related things and I don't want to be kicked out of this valuable resource!

Thanks again for your time.

[ciaramc]

I would say wanderer is right the European section will help you much more....anyway some advice I must agree with Wanderer 6 months...anything less will maybe seem like an extended holiday. It should not take long to issue the Family Permit a friend of mine got it withing 12 days! About your wife joining you in another European country you will have to check with the embassy of the country you plan on moving to?Will your wife be visa required? I think your wife will need a visa for Bulgaria.....

[Obie]

She can go to any EU country with me, without a visa?

She can go with you to any EU countries besides Britain.

In regards to the Visa, she can travel without it, provided she is traveling with you, or going to meet you in the EU country.

The problem is getting her into a European bound flight. The airlines will not allow her to board the flight. However should she make it to the border accompanied by you, she will be fine.

When we are in the EU country we apply for the residence card for her? Both of us? How long does that take?

The law says it should not take longer than six month. Many member states are efficient in processing it on time, but the UK is taking disproportionately longer than this. Fortunately for you, you will not be doing it there.

How long after this can we then apply for the EEA family permit to the UK?

Six months after you have exercise a treaty rights in a member state , you qualify

The reason for asking these questions is that we want to get this all sorted out before the baby is born. I can easily get a job in Bulgaria for instance, but we would want to move quickly to the UK so that we are settled there before the baby is born.

That is excellent. Surely give it a go. You might be fortunate to make it in UK before the baby is born. Alternatively you can try Ireland, which would be an easier option if you want the baby to be born in the UK.

[ciaramc]

Obie I think you see everything in black and white....and immigration certainly don't see it that way they see lots of grey....it will be difficult for the OP to get his wife on a flight without a visa (maybe not impossible). And since she is pregnant why risk it...the visa should be issue free and at an accelarated process. Any way good luck let us know how you get on.....oh and congrats on the baby!

[Obie]

Obie I think you see everything in black and white....and immigration certainly don't see it that way they see lots of grey....it will be difficult for the OP to get his wife on a flight without a visa (maybe not impossible). And since she is pregnant why risk it...the visa should be issue free and at an accelarated process. Any way good luck let us know how you get on.....oh and congrats on the baby!

Ciara i have already informed the OP it will be a difficult hurdle getting his wife onto a European Bound flight, without a visa.

However if he is fortunate to do so, she will almost certainly not be returned if he is accompanying her.

I think he should certainly try the Bulgaria option if he is guaranteed a Job there.

Just for the record : I will strongly recommend he applies for the visa, as it will create little or no hassle for her at all.

He can even apply for the Irish D category visa issued to EEA spouses or family members. With this visa, he will be rest assured that his wife will make it to the UK, should they wish to have the baby there.

I always value and respect you contributions Ciara, but i beg to disagree that i see things purely as black and white.

I used to be naive before as i was too young to know how my first residency was secured in the UK , but having lived in Ireland and undergone the process, my eyes are widely open. Or at least i am trying to make them.

[andy and ann]

Thankyou so very much for the advice. Sorry for my late reply, but this is purely due to the time difference! I have no doubt that you are all correct with regard to having to excercise my treaty rights for six months, but I simply cannot find any evidence of this online. Going back to this document :

http://www.ukvisas.gov.uk/en/ecg/eunati ... t#14763111

ix. The British citizen is not exercising a Treaty right in a Member State (Surinder Singh)
"You have applied for admission to the United Kingdom in accordance with Regulation 9 of the Immigration (European Economic Area) Regulations 2006 as the family member of a British national who has been / was previously working or self-employed in another Member State. However, in view of your failure to provide documentary evidence that the British citizen is/was working or self-employed in another Member State prior to returning to/coming to the United Kingdom, I am not satisfied that the Regulations apply in this case."

As far as I can see, as long as I provide a contract of employment and pay slips, details etc of my employer they cannot refuse me. You see, if it is six months then we would be cutting it too fine and my wife wouldn't want to take this route quite understandably. As the baby would be due anytime.

To get onto the European flight could we get a schengen visa?

And finally, what would be the difference of going the Irish route Obie? I am sure that I would struggle to get work there. The only reason I can get work in Bulgaria is because of my friends.


Thankyou all for your help so far!

[Obie]

Thankyou so very much for the advice. Sorry for my late reply, but this is purely due to the time difference! I have no doubt that you are all correct with regard to having to excercise my treaty rights for six months, but I simply cannot find any evidence of this online. Going back to this document :

http://www.ukvisas.gov.uk/en/ecg/eunati ... t#14763111

ix. The British citizen is not exercising a Treaty right in a Member State (Surinder Singh)
"You have applied for admission to the United Kingdom in accordance with Regulation 9 of the Immigration (European Economic Area) Regulations 2006 as the family member of a British national who has been / was previously working or self-employed in another Member State. However, in view of your failure to provide documentary evidence that the British citizen is/was working or self-employed in another Member State prior to returning to/coming to the United Kingdom, I am not satisfied that the Regulations apply in this case."

As far as I can see, as long as I provide a contract of employment and pay slips, details etc of my employer they cannot refuse me. You see, if it is six months then we would be cutting it too fine and my wife wouldn't want to take this route quite understandably. As the baby would be due anytime.

To get onto the European flight could we get a schengen visa?

And finally, what would be the difference of going the Irish route Obie? I am sure that I would struggle to get work there. The only reason I can get work in Bulgaria is because of my friends.


Thankyou all for your help so far!

I forgot about the Philippines time difference completely. Quite similar to that of Australia, Isn't. It must be the dead of night there now.

Please do apply for the Schengen Visa. It is supposed to be issued free of charge without much questions asked, except proof of your relationship, your eea nationality and your wife's passport . I am not quite sure though if Bulgaria is part of the Schengen agreement yet. If it is, that is great, if not you can apply for a separate Bulgarian visa as well.

I am sure you friend will assist you with evidence proving you have undertaken meaningful work in Bulgaria, and i am sure the time you spent there in the past will be counted as well. Therefore you need not worry about the 6 months requirement.

They do demand it, but i have been unable to find the link so far. However the law does not give them the right to impose this, the UK just choose to do it.

The reason i suggested Ireland, is because Ireland has a Common Travel Area with the UK, and if you were to obtain their D category visa for family member of EEA national, you wife would be able to come to the UK with you even if the British High commission in Bulgaria proves difficult in granting her the visa. This is just a backup. At the end of the day, you will loose nothing. However as you are guaranteed a Job in Bulgaria, i will agree with you to go there.

[Wanderer]

Removed cos I misunderstood!

[Obie]

Please note: You CANNOT enter the UK with an Irish visit visa, the CTA does not apply to non UK/Irish citizens.

If the OP has exercised a genuine and meaningful economic activity in another EEA country (ie Self-employment or Employment), he reserve the right to enter the UK with or without a visa or by any means possible.

This issue was addressed in the Metock ruling.

In an ideal world, it would be great for the wife to be issued the so called EEA family Permit in Bulgaria, however in the unlikely event of this not happening as smoothly as it should, and time is of the essence in his case, i will advise and suggest he uses all legal means at his disposal to get his Wife to the UK, where he can spend ample time with her, and where she can receive adequate treatment.

Incidentally, the Irish Visa i suggested to the OP, is issued under the freedom of movement legislation Directive 2004/38 EC as opposed to a normal Irish Visitor's visa.

Hopefully she would have obtained a Resident card by then, which would add more legality should they explore the avenue i recommended.

[Wanderer]

Please note: You CANNOT enter the UK with an Irish visit visa, the CTA does not apply to non UK/Irish citizens.

If the OP has exercised a genuine and meaningful economic activity in another EEA country (ie Self-employment or Employment), he reserve the right to enter the UK with or without a visa or by any means possible.

This issue was addressed in the Metock ruling.

In an ideal world, it would be great for the wife to be issued the so called EEA family Permit in Bulgaria, however in the unlikely event of this not happening as smoothly as it should, and time is of the essence in his case, i will advise and suggest he uses all legal means at his disposal to get his Wife to the UK, where he can spend ample time with her, and where she can receive adequate treatment.

Incidentally, the Irish Visa i suggested to the OP, is issued under the freedom of movement legislation Directive 2004/38 EC as opposed to a normal Irish Visitor's visa.

Hopefully she would have obtained a Resident card by then, which would add more legality should they explore the avenue i recommended.

I misread and removed my post Obie!

[Obie]

I was unaware you were going to retract it.

Had i suspected you would, i would not have gone through the hassle of responding to it.

Sorry mate. I just wanted to set the record straight, so it doesn't seem as if i am engaging in illegal act, or advising someone to engage in it either.

[andy and ann]

Thanks again for the advice, we are just 7 hours in front of UK time here, so its now evening time.

The only problem I have is that I didn't work in Bulgaria previously, I was just living off of my savings. I didn't register there or anything didn't need to at the time.

This week we will head off to the embassy of The Netherlands and Bulgaria and try to get the various visas sorted out (flights to Europe land in The Netherlands). I do think that it might be too big a gamble to take as the wife certainly wants to be settled in the UK before the baby is due. A lot for us to think on, thats for sure! Maybe it might be better if I go back to Bulgaria alone to get the process underway.

Thankyou for your time once again! If you or anyone can find the link that talks about the six month rule I would be most grateful.

[Wanderer]

Why don't you just use the UK immigration route?

[andy and ann]

Well that is a good question, but that entails myself moving back to the UK and trying to find a job, that visa takes 3 months for them to decide, plus the time trying to find a job in this economic climate.

Also after having her visa refused once already (family visit visa only) I don't want to pay Her Majesty's government nearly 1 grand just for them to say no again!

Good question though

[Obie]

Well that is a good question, but that entails myself moving back to the UK and trying to find a job, that visa takes 3 months for them to decide, plus the time trying to find a job in this economic climate.

Also after having her visa refused once already (family visit visa only) I don't want to pay Her Majesty's government nearly 1 grand just for them to say no again!

Good question though

Absolutely right my dear friend.

I understand that spousal is not an option for you at this stage and time is of the essence.

I have been checking about the six months rule, it seems as if it might be a de facto rule rather than a de jure rule.

Being that it is de facto, you will probably succeed in fighting it, should they want to use it against you. However you have to demonstrate that you have exercised a meaningful economic activity in another EEA country. I am sure your friend will provide assistance in the form of reference or whatever necessary means in that department.

Here is the 2006 regulation that transposed the directive into law, it quite rightly didn't mention anything about the six months at all. Then again they sometime try to give you the impression they are doing everything by the book, when in essence they don't on occasions.

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitec ... iew=Binary

By all means try and get her to apply for the Irish D category Visa i suggested to you, even if you might not want to stay there.

Northern Ireland which is a UK territory is within a reasonable distance from the Irish Republic, this will enable your wife by virtue of you nationality to access UK medical facilities, during her gestation period, should this be a difficulty for her in Bulgaria due to the language barrier.

Also , if your wife were to have your child in Northern Ireland, your child will have the citizenship of both the UK and the Republic of Ireland. Another avenue will be open under the Chen ruling (EU ruling) for her to have her residency processed.

http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=42454

[andy and ann]

Thanks again for your help.

I don't have time to study it in depth right now, my head is spinning and my wife bless her is bending over the toilet right now. What these poor girls have to go through is unbelievable!

I just want to say, again referring to this quote which I copied in my first post:

It does not matter if the only reason the British national went to another Member State was to exercise an economic Treaty right was so that he/ she could come back to the UK with his/ her family members under EC law.

In the application I could include a letter which goes along the lines of:

I lived with my wife in The Philippines trying to get everything organised and arranged by the book so that everything would work perfectly. The UK home office denied her the visa because she had no money. Of course I could have transferred money into her account for the purposes of the visa but then it would mean two lots of charges when changing the currencies. The ECO stated that after 5 months in the UK I would have commensurately less money, did it not occur to the ECO who never even placed his name on the denial form that I would be working in that time? The reason that we applied for a family visit visa was so that she could sample life in the UK and get back to the Philippines before winter. As could be seen by the stamps in my passport I take visa restrictions very seriously, and have not missed one deadline in all my years of travel. I find it very insulting that the ECO felt I would let my wife stay and not leave.

I am taking this route because I want to be with my wife in my country and I want my child to be born a British Citizen. On no documentation does it say that the EEA Family Permit should take six months and I expect this to be issued to me instantly. I will take this matter all the way to the top of the EU if I must.

Please bare in mind that although there are no financial restrictions on the EEA family Permit, for every day wasted I will indeed have commensurately less money and it will be very likely that I will have to use public funds to support my family.

[Wanderer]

If ur kid is born in Phil. it will still be a British Citizen, u r aware of that?

British by decent, not by birth tho - means sprog will not be able to pass on citizenship.

[andy and ann]

I have to be honest, I was aware that he/she will be British by decent but didn't understand any of the implications of it. It makes me even more determined that he/she should be born in the UK!

Thanks for the added info.

[Wanderer]

I have to be honest, I was aware that he/she will be British by decent but didn't understand any of the implications of it. It makes me even more determined that he/she should be born in the UK!

Thanks for the added info.

But if u intend to settle in UK, kid will most likely remain here and it's sprogs will be British by Birth.

Hate calling kids 'it'! I have five myself....

U do realise there's an Ashes Test on I hope.....

[Obie]

Andy , have you given any thought to the Irish D category Visa i suggested earlier.

That way, with or without the UK issuing the EEA family permit, you will be rest assured your child will be born in the UK and possibly have an Irish Citizenship as well. This will enable your wife to apply under the Chen ruling if all the other options seems timely and unworkable.


This is their details:

Ireland Embassy , Philippines

541 Orchard Road, Liat Towers, 8th Floor
Singapore
238881
Phone:
+65-62387616
Fax:
+65-62387615
Email:
ireland@magix.com.sg
Website URL:
www.ireland.org.sg



Ireland Consulate , Philippines

3rd Floor, Max\'s Building 70 Jupiter Street, Bel Air I Village
Metro Manila
Philippines
Phone:
+63-2-896-4668
Fax:
+63-2-897-8534

Contact them and see what their requirements are.
I know you can appeal and hopefully will be successful, but the process is quite timely and can also be rather expensive.

This is what we have to face with these authorities who try to punish their citizens for venturing to find love and affections outside their narrow gene pool.

[andy and ann]

Thanks a lot Obie, I don't know much about the Irish possibility so I am going to read up on it right away!

Thanks once again