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Appeal Process.

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keshgrover
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Appeal Process.

Post by keshgrover » Wed Jul 28, 2010 5:40 pm

Hi Guys,

I put my humble request to you all to help with couple of queries regarding my Uncle's case. Here is a short snap shot of the case :

1) Uncle is British and so do his son from his wife.
2) Wife was on student visa and applied for Tier 4 extension before getting married to him.
3) They got married and the day they were about to send FLR (m) for her they recieved her Tier 4 refusal as college collapsed.
4) They appeal against the decision and filed a new FLR(M) application on same day.

Here is the interesting bit :

5) HO wrote to them saying that their appeal grounds are Variable now and should be considered as a 'spouse of some one settled in UK'. A decision can not be made until appeal is heard.
6) They have had their appeal heard today and HO solicitor fired them all the questions about previous colleges she have been to. He also challenged their relationship and corss questioned them. Every thing went ok apart from my Aunty could not remembered all previous lectruars names and all the exams she have written sofar since last 5 years.
7) My uncle's barristar argued that appeal should be allowed as she has family ties now and have setup the life in UK.
8)HO insisted that they both should go back to origin of their country and establish life there as it does not really matter if my Uncle and his son are British.
9) Barrister attacked back saying that system should work on protecting citizens not kicking them out of the country. Law has been setup to protect the families of British Citizen and to avoid illegal people entering or settling in country.
10) Judge also asked he what he thinks under what section appeal should be allowed 248 or Article 8 (Human rights). (I think these are the right sections as he could not remember himself). And Barrister answered both as firstly she is the wife of British and secondly she have setup a family here.

However, at last when all arguments finished Judge said he keeps his decision reserve and will let them know between 12 to 28 days.

Now question arises here why 12 to 28 days? When usually it takes 5 working days to send the court decision. And then HO does have 12 working days to appeal against it.

I just can not work out. Is Judge trying to make base of his refusal OR it is just a normal practice?


Moderators you guys do have very vast experience dealing with these kind of troubles. At the moment my uncle and his wife are very worried. And they have not had any meal today. Saying they are so much worried and do not feel like eating at all.

Could you guys kindly put some light on this situation for me please, as this forum have always been a great help. And let us know what you think Judge should have done in this situation. Is it a yes or it is going to be reffered to upper tribunal.

Sincere Regards

Keshav
KESH

alikhan28
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Re: Appeal Process.

Post by alikhan28 » Wed Jul 28, 2010 6:16 pm

Hi Keshgrove
keshgrover wrote:Hi Guys,

I put my humble request to you all to help with couple of queries regarding my Uncle's case. Here is a short snap shot of the case :

1) Uncle is British and so do his son from his wife.
2) Wife was on student visa and applied for Tier 4 extension before getting married to him.
3) They got married and the day they were about to send FLR (m) for her they recieved her Tier 4 refusal as college collapsed.
4) They appeal against the decision and filed a new FLR(M) application on same day.

Here is the interesting bit :

5) HO wrote to them saying that their appeal grounds are Variable now and should be considered as a 'spouse of some one settled in UK'. A decision can not be made until appeal is heard.
6) They have had their appeal heard today and HO solicitor fired them all the questions about previous colleges she have been to. He also challenged their relationship and corss questioned them. Every thing went ok apart from my Aunty could not remembered all previous lectruars names and all the exams she have written sofar since last 5 years.
7) My uncle's barristar argued that appeal should be allowed as she has family ties now and have setup the life in UK.
8)HO insisted that they both should go back to origin of their country and establish life there as it does not really matter if my Uncle and his son are British.
9) Barrister attacked back saying that system should work on protecting citizens not kicking them out of the country. Law has been setup to protect the families of British Citizen and to avoid illegal people entering or settling in country.
10) Judge also asked he what he thinks under what section appeal should be allowed 248 or Article 8 (Human rights). (I think these are the right sections as he could not remember himself). And Barrister answered both as firstly she is the wife of British and secondly she have setup a family here.

However, at last when all arguments finished Judge said he keeps his decision reserve and will let them know between 12 to 28 days.

Now question arises here why 12 to 28 days? When usually it takes 5 working days to send the court decision. And then HO does have 12 working days to appeal against it.

I just can not work out. Is Judge trying to make base of his refusal OR it is just a normal practice?


Moderators you guys do have very vast experience dealing with these kind of troubles. At the moment my uncle and his wife are very worried. And they have not had any meal today. Saying they are so much worried and do not feel like eating at all.

Could you guys kindly put some light on this situation for me please, as this forum have always been a great help. And let us know what you think Judge should have done in this situation. Is it a yes or it is going to be reffered to upper tribunal.

Sincere Regards

Keshav

You would get judge decision in 2 weeks time so this is irrelevant question.

Determinations are normally send within 2 week time.A very common thing.

Now two things in my mind

1.Would judge allow on artcile8 of human rights. So in my view they have a good chance.As they are married plus have a kid.This all makes their chance on artcile8 strong and after a lot of case laws By Lords like Chikwamba and Baku.They have a very good chance for success.

2.They also satisfies immigration rules except college was closed but still she has a valid leave when she applied.If she is not precived a bogus student then she also satisfies immigration rules.If I am not wrong,she has got COA for marriage or marriage was registered.

In my humble advice you would wait with patience.Judge said you would get decision is 12 days is a general term..this means you can get within 2 weeks.

Regard

Ali

keshgrover
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Re: Appeal Process.

Post by keshgrover » Fri Jul 30, 2010 10:30 am

Thanks Ali.

Just another query. I just found out from my Aunty that during the hearing Judge did ask the HO solicitor weather her case falls under 'ZN - AFGHANISTAN - FC'. And HO solicitor agreed. What does this mean? What is this ZN - AF......' And after this my uncle was put on several questions weather it would be possible for him to go back and get settled in his country of origin. He just said no. Could Moderators put some light on this please.

Sincere Regards
KESH

alikhan28
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Re: Appeal Process.

Post by alikhan28 » Fri Jul 30, 2010 12:38 pm

keshgrover wrote:Thanks Ali.

Just another query. I just found out from my Aunty that during the hearing Judge did ask the HO solicitor weather her case falls under 'ZN - AFGHANISTAN - FC'. And HO solicitor agreed. What does this mean? What is this ZN - AF......' And after this my uncle was put on several questions weather it would be possible for him to go back and get settled in his country of origin. He just said no. Could Moderators put some light on this please.

Sincere Regards
I am confused on this.First this case law deals with entry clearance so in my humble view judge is of the view that applicant should apply oversea and get entry clearance as he does not have to meet maintenance and accommodation requirement under ZN - AFGHANISTAN - FC case judgment.

I did a little research and found that this is a very important case judgment.I have a link for detail judgment for you.below

In short according to this judgment spouse for British person(who gained through asylum..means he was on asylum and obtained British citizenship) dont need to meet normal maintenance and accommodation retirements.


http://www.bailii.org/uk/cases/UKSC/2010/21.html




regards

Ali

keshgrover
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Posts: 369
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2007 10:58 pm
Contact:

Re: Appeal Process.

Post by keshgrover » Fri Jul 30, 2010 5:23 pm

alikhan28 wrote:
keshgrover wrote:Thanks Ali.

Just another query. I just found out from my Aunty that during the hearing Judge did ask the HO solicitor weather her case falls under 'ZN - AFGHANISTAN - FC'. And HO solicitor agreed. What does this mean? What is this ZN - AF......' And after this my uncle was put on several questions weather it would be possible for him to go back and get settled in his country of origin. He just said no. Could Moderators put some light on this please.

Sincere Regards
I am confused on this.First this case law deals with entry clearance so in my humble view judge is of the view that applicant should apply oversea and get entry clearance as he does not have to meet maintenance and accommodation requirement under ZN - AFGHANISTAN - FC case judgment.

I did a little research and found that this is a very important case judgment.I have a link for detail judgment for you.below

In short according to this judgment spouse for British person(who gained through asylum..means he was on asylum and obtained British citizenship) dont need to meet normal maintenance and accommodation retirements.


http://www.bailii.org/uk/cases/UKSC/2010/21.html




regards

Ali
Thanks for the link Ali. I have gone through myself and just can not work out why would judge mention this judgement? Also he asked thier barrister that what he thinks under what section their appeal should be allowed? i.e. Weather it is Paragraph 281 or Article 8. And he answered both.

Now What does it mean? I know a bit about Article 8 but what about Paragraph 281? And how it is applicable in their case.

Sincere Regards.
KESH

alikhan28
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Posts: 298
Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2010 4:05 pm

Re: Appeal Process.

Post by alikhan28 » Fri Jul 30, 2010 6:00 pm

keshgrover wrote:
alikhan28 wrote:
keshgrover wrote:Thanks Ali.

Just another query. I just found out from my Aunty that during the hearing Judge did ask the HO solicitor weather her case falls under 'ZN - AFGHANISTAN - FC'. And HO solicitor agreed. What does this mean? What is this ZN - AF......' And after this my uncle was put on several questions weather it would be possible for him to go back and get settled in his country of origin. He just said no. Could Moderators put some light on this please.

Sincere Regards
I am confused on this.First this case law deals with entry clearance so in my humble view judge is of the view that applicant should apply oversea and get entry clearance as he does not have to meet maintenance and accommodation requirement under ZN - AFGHANISTAN - FC case judgment.

I did a little research and found that this is a very important case judgment.I have a link for detail judgment for you.below

In short according to this judgment spouse for British person(who gained through asylum..means he was on asylum and obtained British citizenship) dont need to meet normal maintenance and accommodation retirements.


http://www.bailii.org/uk/cases/UKSC/2010/21.html




regards

Ali
Thanks for the link Ali. I have gone through myself and just can not work out why would judge mention this judgement? Also he asked thier barrister that what he thinks under what section their appeal should be allowed? i.e. Weather it is Paragraph 281 or Article 8. And he answered both.

Now What does it mean? I know a bit about Article 8 but what about Paragraph 281? And how it is applicable in their case.

Sincere Regards.
You are welcome.For arctile8 read some important judgments like

Chikwamba, Baku,WV,Razgar.All these are avalibale on Balli web site.

Judge says many things hearing and we should hope for best.

As I said in my view having a child and married,make their case strong.

Read case law Chikwamba then you would know what I am talking about.

I am little anious why judge make this reference of case law as this cleraly suggest what he is thinking.

Did he mention any other case laws?

Ali

keshgrover
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Posts: 369
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2007 10:58 pm
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Re: Appeal Process.

Post by keshgrover » Fri Jul 30, 2010 6:45 pm

Thanks Ali,

As long as I am aware of he did ask quite few questions. And reffered quite few judgements. He asked my uncle that on his child's birth certificate it says his wife is retail assistant. So was she working full time at the time of the birth of baby? He says no. She worked part time over a period of couple of months and after delivery she never been bothered. But still what do you reckon? Is it going to be a yes or no. Or going tobe reffered to upeer tribunal?
KESH

alikhan28
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Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2010 4:05 pm

Re: Appeal Process.

Post by alikhan28 » Fri Jul 30, 2010 9:46 pm

keshgrover wrote:Thanks Ali,

As long as I am aware of he did ask quite few questions. And reffered quite few judgements. He asked my uncle that on his child's birth certificate it says his wife is retail assistant. So was she working full time at the time of the birth of baby? He says no. She worked part time over a period of couple of months and after delivery she never been bothered. But still what do you reckon? Is it going to be a yes or no. Or going to be reffered to upeer tribunal?
If I looked on case laws on article 8 and then to me this is a Yes.

Nobody can say anything with a guarantee even your barrister.

Judge can say yours anti can leave with child and apply for entry clearance from oversea.Yours uncle can visit them oversea so there is interference in private life but this is justified.Thats way he is making reference to this Entry clearance case law.

He can say she has to not meet maintenance or accommodation requirement so getting entry clerance would not be a problem.

I am thinking in that direction and this case law if forcing me to think in that direction.

Otherwise they have private life and should be allowed on artcile8.

But if we leave artcile8 on one side then how they are not satisfying immigration rules.

Can I ask weather your anti leave was curliated? what was her exact status when she had applied.She should win on immigration rules easily as compared to human rights.

To me this should be Yes and if this stupid judge make an error ..be ready for reconsideration,you would have chance in upper courts.

Ask your anti what questions did judge asked about immigration rules.

On accommodation and maintenance.

Ali

vinny
Moderator
Posts: 32757
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2007 7:58 pm

Re: Appeal Process.

Post by vinny » Sun Aug 01, 2010 8:29 am

alikhan28 wrote:For arctile8 read some important judgments like
Chikwamba, Baku,WV,Razgar.All these are avalibale on Balli web site.
See also Effect on family members
This is not intended to be legal or professional advice in any jurisdiction. Please click on any given links for further information. Refer to the source of any quotes.
We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children.

keshgrover
Member of Standing
Posts: 369
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2007 10:58 pm
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Re: Appeal Process.

Post by keshgrover » Wed Aug 04, 2010 5:22 pm

vinny wrote:
alikhan28 wrote:For arctile8 read some important judgments like
Chikwamba, Baku,WV,Razgar.All these are avalibale on Balli web site.
See also Effect on family members
Thanks for the link Vinny. It has now become more confusing as Every Judge is standing with their opinion with individual cases. My uncle rang AIT and asked about decision this morning. And guess what? He was told that Judge is holding his decision reserve and wait for next 28 days. It is being just a nightmare.

John, What you say on this?
KESH

keshgrover
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Posts: 369
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2007 10:58 pm
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Re: Appeal Process.

Post by keshgrover » Wed Aug 18, 2010 5:42 pm

keshgrover wrote:
vinny wrote:
alikhan28 wrote:For arctile8 read some important judgments like
Chikwamba, Baku,WV,Razgar.All these are avalibale on Balli web site.
See also Effect on family members
Thanks for the link Vinny. It has now become more confusing as Every Judge is standing with their opinion with individual cases. My uncle rang AIT and asked about decision this morning. And guess what? He was told that Judge is holding his decision reserve and wait for next 28 days. It is being just a nightmare.

John, What you say on this?
After all that long waiting, my uncle called ATI and hearing centre today. And after 3 weeks and 2 days decision is still reserved and case is with judge. I can not understand why judge is too long to give a decision.

Is it really normal? Could seniors please put some light on.

Sincere Regards.
KESH

alikhan28
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Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2010 4:05 pm

Re: Appeal Process.

Post by alikhan28 » Wed Aug 18, 2010 8:06 pm

After all that long waiting, my uncle called ATI and hearing centre today. And after 3 weeks and 2 days decision is still reserved and case is with judge. I can not understand why judge is too long to give a decision.

Is it really normal? Could seniors please put some light on.

Sincere Regards.
Wait for few more days and then ring and fax AIT for yours decision.

Nothing harm if you(the applicant) can send an email to AIT and ask for update.


Ali

keshgrover
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Posts: 369
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2007 10:58 pm
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Re: Appeal Process.

Post by keshgrover » Sat Aug 21, 2010 3:40 pm

alikhan28 wrote:
After all that long waiting, my uncle called ATI and hearing centre today. And after 3 weeks and 2 days decision is still reserved and case is with judge. I can not understand why judge is too long to give a decision.

Is it really normal? Could seniors please put some light on.

Sincere Regards.
Wait for few more days and then ring and fax AIT for yours decision.

Nothing harm if you(the applicant) can send an email to AIT and ask for update.


Ali
Thanks Ali.
KESH

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