EU & Brexit Deal

[secret.simon]

It doesn't matter any more, as David Davis has realised that the UK Supreme Court cannot be the final Arbiter for the deal between UK and EU, if there will be one..

It may not be the UK Supreme Court, but it won't be the ECJ either, if you read the article that you linked to.

Post-Brexit, the relationship between the UK and the EU will come under public international law, not EU law. Therefore the ECJ would not have jurisdiction on the same basis as the UK Supreme Court does not have jurisdiction. It will likely be an independent arbitration body, made up of both EU and UK representatives.

Hi obie
Those who came to uk and received RC after triggering article 50 under SS route what will happen to their status ? Please guide me with this .thank you

It is a known unknown. We do not yet know the answer to that. Wait for the document that alterhase was referring to.

[secret.simon]

So does this mean existing ECJ case law will no longer have effect in UK courts to enforce existing rights under EU law after Brexit?

An excellent analysis (by the Institute for Government) of what is likely to happen to (and what Parliament should do about) ECJ case law post-Brexit. Definitely worth a read for lawyers and people interested in the law.

There is a very good explanation of the difference in the approach of interpretation of the law on Page 11.

[Obie]

It doesn't matter any more, as David Davis has realised that the UK Supreme Court cannot be the final Arbiter for the deal between UK and EU, if there will be one..

It may not be the UK Supreme Court, but it won't be the ECJ either, if you read the article that you linked to.

Post-Brexit, the relationship between the UK and the EU will come under public international law, not EU law. Therefore the ECJ would not have jurisdiction on the same basis as the UK Supreme Court does not have jurisdiction. It will likely be an independent arbitration body, made up of both EU and UK representatives.

Hi obie
Those who came to uk and received RC after triggering article 50 under SS route what will happen to their status ? Please guide me with this .thank you

It is a known unknown. We do not yet know the answer to that. Wait for the document that alterhase was referring to.

I don't think you have been reading my post.

I said the Supreme Court cannot be the final Arbiter.

Even the minister of the weaken minority government, accepts that EU Judges will play a part, and they will adjudicate on the application of EU law.

The importance of the statement is that, they have abandon the illusion that the Supreme COurt will be the final Arbiter.

[secret.simon]

The UK government's offer on the rights of EU citizens living in the UK

Quick headlines
- Rights will be codified in the Withdrawal Agreement, which will be public international law, not EU law. CJEU jurisdiction will end.
- Offer is for ILR under the Immigration Act 1971 as expected.
- Application required, not automatic status. EU citizens will also require documentation to prove right to reside in the UK.
- CSI will not be a requirement in these applications.

• family dependants who join a qualifying EU citizen in the UK before the UK’s exit will be able to apply for settled status after five years (including where the five years falls after our exit), irrespective of the specified date. Those joining after our exit will be subject to the same rules as those joining British citizens or alternatively to the postexit immigration arrangements for EU citizens who arrive after the specified date;
• the specified date will be no earlier than the 29 March 2017, the date the formal Article 50 process for exiting the EU was triggered, and no later than the date of the UK’s withdrawal from the EU. We expect to discuss the specified date with our European partners as part of delivering a reciprocal dea

29. Family members6 of eligible EU citizens (who can be either EU citizens or non-EU nationals) who are resident in the UK before we leave the EU will also be eligible to apply for settled status, provided that they too meet the criteria above and have been in a genuine relationship with an eligible EU citizen while resident in the UK.

Genuine relationship is not required at the moment.

30. Future family members of those EU citizens who arrived before the specified date – for example a future spouse – who come to the UK after we leave the EU, will be subject to the same rules that apply to non-EU nationals joining British citizens, or alternatively to the postexit immigration arrangements for EU citizens who arrive after the specified date.

This will likely be a flashpoint in the negotiations.

39. After our departure, it will become mandatory to apply for permission to stay in the UK.

58. The arrangements set out above will be enshrined in UK law and enforceable through the UK judicial system, up to and including the Supreme Court. We are also ready to make commitments in the Withdrawal Agreement which will have the status of international law. The Court of Justice of the European Union (CJEU) will not have jurisdiction in the UK.

[mia777]

This answers my initial question:

29. Family members of eligible EU citizens (who can be either EU citizens or non-EU nationals) who are resident in the UK before we leave the EU will also be eligible to apply for settled status, provided that they too meet the criteria above and have been in a genuine relationship with an eligible EU citizen while resident in the UK. Family members who do not yet have five years’ residence will also be eligible to apply for permission to stay (‘leave to remain’) to enable them to accrue these. Most EU citizens will be eligible for the settlement scheme in their own right (rather than as a family member of a resident EU citizen), so this will be most relevant to non-EU national family members. However, EU citizens will be able to access the scheme as a family member if they wish to and can evidence their relationship

Footnote:

Includes direct family members (spouse/civil partner, direct descendants in the descending line (under 21 or dependent), direct dependants in the ascending line), including those with retained rights, and extended family members whose residence has previously been facilitated by the Home Office.

[alterhase58]

Those with current PR have to re-apply:
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/status-of-e ... -in-the-uk

[ILR4PVM]

Those with current PR have to re-apply:
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/status-of-e ... -in-the-uk

" Permanent residence status under EU law
The settled status application process for EU citizens will be separate from the current one for documents confirming EU permanent residence status. Permanent residence status is linked to the UK’s membership of the EU and so will no longer be valid after we leave.

If you already have a document certifying permanent residence, you will still need to apply for the new settled status document. The application process for people who need to do this will be as streamlined as possible."

[secret.simon]

Worth remembering that these are the UK's negotiating framework. They are the starting point of negotiations and are likely to develop and refine further as negotiations progress.

I agree with Wolfgang Munchau of EuroIntelligence.

The EU’s red line in the negotiations is the protection of the rights of people who are residing in the UK now. The UK’s red line is sovereign jurisdiction. This is not really a hard issue to compromise on. A roomful of immigration lawyers could do this in a weekend. We assume that the UK will accept the EU demands on the important small print issues, while the EU gives up the demand of oversight by the ECJ.

He also opines that "It is wrong to conclude that the weakness of Theresa May’s minority government, and especially her difficulties negotiating a deal with the Northern Irish DUP, would have a huge impact on Brexit. The reason is that the parliamentary majority in favour of Brexit is now overwhelming."

[Right]

Those with current PR have to re-apply:
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/status-of-e ... -in-the-uk

That is bloody ridiculous. I hope I can go for citizenship before I have to apply for this new document. I am sick of Theresa May!

[Coconutlatte]

I've read everything but I'm still a little baffled...!

My husband and I arrived in the UK (I'm British and he is non-EU) after working and living in Ireland so we went through the SS route. He recieved his residence card ('Family Member/EU resident) this year. Valid for 5 years. But obviously we went through SS and I had triggered my freedom of movement as an EU citizen etc. I just...I don't know what we are meant to do next now? Or can he stay for the 5 years stated and then apply for settled status instead of PR which would have been next?

[Obie]

Theresa May is a ghastly person, she does not have the interest of EU national, it is like she has a personal vendetta against them. After the Referendum, she was the only person in Cameron's government that opposed the right of these people to stay. Now she want to subject them to ID card a brand new application for people who already have PR. It is just disheartening. I am flabbergasted by her inhumane nature.

Today she is offered a ransom fee to these extremist loyalist in Northern Ireland to back her weak and wobbly government.

The UK supreme court will never be the final arbiter of the rights of these people. I work in this area, have no confidence in the Tribunal or the COurt of appeal to guarantee the rights of these people, some of whom have lived here for decades and half a century, and now Theresa May is permitting them to stay. So shameful.

The EU may well concede on another Arbitration mechanism, but clearly it will not end at the Supreme Court.

May will go soon, once the coup plotters, get their way, and EU national will continue to exist.

The deal is pathetic, and does not argue much.

I saw Mrs May saying it was EU law, that put CSI burden on EU national, failed to tell parliament that Article 37 gives the member state the power to make more favourable provision, and that favourable provisions existed until April 2011, when she started enforcing CSI for EU citizens.

[mkhan2525]

I've read everything but I'm still a little baffled...!

My husband and I arrived in the UK (I'm British and he is non-EU) after working and living in Ireland so we went through the SS route. He recieved his residence card ('Family Member/EU resident) this year. Valid for 5 years. But obviously we went through SS and I had triggered my freedom of movement as an EU citizen etc. I just...I don't know what we are meant to do next now? Or can he stay for the 5 years stated and then apply for settled status instead of PR which would have been next?

When a BC returns from a another members state after exercising treaty rights the Directive applies by anology. I would expect SS family members to be given the same opportunity as EU nationals and their family members to acquire 5 years of residence before applying for the new ILR status providing they arrive before the cut off date.

I wonder if EU nationals and their family members will have to endure the extortionate ILR fees non-eu nationals are subject to when applying for ILR.

The most vulnerable group of people will be those living in the UK under Zambrano rights of residence. These group of people have no legitimate expectation to aquire ILR.

[secret.simon]

I wonder if EU nationals and their family members will have to endure the extortionate ILR fees non-eu nationals are subject to when applying for ILR.

Some of them found £65 per application extortionate.

The most vulnerable group of people will be those living in the UK under Zambrano rights of residence. These group of people have no legitimate expectation to aquire ILR.

10 year Long Residence (assuming that they reside in the UK for 10 years)? Nothing for those with shorter terms of residence. But worth remembering that they did not get PR under EU law either. So, no effective change.

[eeapr4me]

hi all, any idea what might/could happen in my situation:

eu national applied for DCPR in July 2016
DCPR issued in Nov. 2016
Permanent residence deemed to have been acquired 5 April 2016.
Applied for naturalisation in April 2017 and currently waiting for a decision.


I appreciate that this situation is fluid but would be interested in your opinions on the implication of having to re-apply to confirm settled status as this is a requirement for naturalisation.

thank you

[ruthie]

hi all, any idea what might/could happen in my situation:

eu national applied for DCPR in July 2016
DCPR issued in Nov. 2016
Permanent residence deemed to have been acquired 5 April 2016.
Applied for naturalisation in April 2017 and currently waiting for a decision.


I appreciate that this situation is fluid but would be interested in your opinions on the implication of having to re-apply to confirm settled status as this is a requirement for naturalisation.

thank you

You will likely become a British citizen before UK withdraw from EU. So the special settled status is irrelevant to you. According to their proposal so far, no one will have to apply for the 'settled status' before UK withdraw from EU, it's for arrangement afterwards.

[JAJ]

Those with current PR have to re-apply:
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/status-of-e ... -in-the-uk

" Permanent residence status under EU law
The settled status application process for EU citizens will be separate from the current one for documents confirming EU permanent residence status. Permanent residence status is linked to the UK’s membership of the EU and so will no longer be valid after we leave.

If you already have a document certifying permanent residence, you will still need to apply for the new settled status document. The application process for people who need to do this will be as streamlined as possible."

This is still a proposal. It is at least possible that during the negotiations and/or passage of the relevant legislation it will be decided that those who acquire Permanent Residence before 29.03.2019 (and have not lost that status) will automatically be deemed to acquire settled status on that date and that Permanent Resident cards will be acceptable as evidence of settled status for a period of time after 29.03.2019.

At a minimum, documenting Permanent Resident status now will make it simpler to obtain settled status after 29.03.2019 and is still important for establishing status up to that date. Example- for proving that U.K. born children are British citizens or making an application for British citizenship.

[anmil20]

Are we still ok to apply for citizenship with the EEA PR cards? I have my NCS appointment in July.

[thsths]

Although she has offered nothing new but her conditional offer is a good thing imho. She wants the same reciprocal rights for the British citizens living in EU - which surely is good thing. No?

No, it is not a good thing. The EU offer is to keep the existing EU legislation in place - to treat British Citizens exercising their freedom of movement like European Citizen. The UK proposal is much weaker, and therefore a reciprocal arrangement would have to be weaker than the current EU proposal.

Both sides agree that the arrangements should be reciprocal, but the EU have started with an ambitious proposal, while Theresa May only wants to guarantee the bare minimum necessary. The EU position is also pretty well defined (not surprising, given the nature of EU regulations), while the UK position is still very open to interpretation. For example, what is a reasonable fee? I assume that Theresa May would argue that all fees are reasonable, or would she call the ILR fee unreasonable?

[memuk]

Today's Policy Paper is bad news. The vagueness is a trick. The mere idea that EVERY EU national in the UK needs to "re-apply" means they intend to get rid of many of us. They want self deportation. The FEES will be huge. The timeline and endless bureaucracy will effectively scare people away. UK businesses will be afraid to hire EUs. This isn't hard Brexit. It's evil Brexit. Don't be fooled by anything else in the document. Making everyone reapply is designed create a giant mess.

Please write to your EU reps, your MEPs, or other politicians to ask for these changes:

Existing PR requires no new documents or applications
NO Applications FEES for any new "settled status"
Settled Status application must be 1-hour, same day service
Appeals must be resolved within 3 working days
All EU nationals in UK permanently keep same 5-year right to obtain PR (ILR)
ALL EU nationals in UK eligible to apply for UK citizenship after 6 years
All EU nationals currently in UK may leave UK and return with unlimited movement

[Richard W]

Those with current PR have to re-apply:
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/status-of-e ... -in-the-uk

EU nationals had better hope that this guide is appallingly drafted. It says

The grace period will last for a fixed period of time (to be confirmed during negotiations) of up to 2 years. If you haven’t received a document confirming your new immigration status by the end of this period you will no longer have permission to remain in the UK.

Given the enormous estimates (decades!) of how long it will take for all EU citizens in the UK to get their current permanent residence documented, this means that 'permanent residents' whose applications aren't processed in time will be here illegally! This is so contrary to the usual rules on government delays that one can only hope the statement is an unintentional error as opposed to a massive suspension of 'fair play'.

The Irish may be conned, as the Ireland Act 1949 gives Irish citizens no more rights than Australians. Fortunately for them, they should generally be able to recover matters by entry to the UK via the Republic.

[alterhase58]

Are we still ok to apply for citizenship with the EEA PR cards? I have my NCS appointment in July.

Yes - nothing has changed - UK is still in the EU and your PR is valid.

[JAJ]

The Irish may be conned, as the Ireland Act 1949 gives Irish citizens no more rights than Australians. Fortunately for them, they should generally be able to recover matters by entry to the UK via the Republic.

The rights of Irish citizens in the U.K. (and vice versa for British citizens in Ireland) are based on the Common Travel Area not the Ireland Act. It is open to either the British or Irish governments to change their domestic legislation but that does not occur as a consequence of leaving the EU.

[secret.simon]

Today's Policy Paper is bad news. The vagueness is a trick. The mere idea that EVERY EU national in the UK needs to "re-apply" means they intend to get rid of many of us. They want self deportation. The FEES will be huge. The timeline and endless bureaucracy will effectively scare people away. UK businesses will be afraid to hire EUs. This isn't hard Brexit. It's evil Brexit. Don't be fooled by anything else in the document. Making everyone reapply is designed create a giant mess.

Please write to your EU reps, your MEPs, or other politicians to ask for these changes

By all means, write to your MEPs and other EU politicians, especially Michel Barnier. But keep a few things in mind.

- Despite the pretenses of Guy Verhofstadt, the European Parliament does not participate in the negotiations. It will have an up-or-down vote at the end of the negotiations. It can vote to reject the deal, but while it will be disastrous for the UK, it will be equally so for the EU citizens in the UK, because the Treaties and EU law will come to an end with nothing to replace it. So, EU citizens will then be at the mercy of whatever the UK government provides.

- The deal must also be acceptable to the UK politicians. A deal that requires EU citizens to be treated better than British citizens may not be popular this side of the Channel.

- It is in the nature of negotiations that each side must accept something that they do not like.

[secret.simon]

The Irish may be conned, as the Ireland Act 1949 gives Irish citizens no more rights than Australians. Fortunately for them, they should generally be able to recover matters by entry to the UK via the Republic.

The rights of Irish citizens in the U.K. (and vice versa for British citizens in Ireland) are based on the Common Travel Area not the Ireland Act. It is open to either the British or Irish governments to change their domestic legislation but that does not occur as a consequence of leaving the EU.

During your recent absence, Richard W has delved at some length into the special status of Irish citizens in the UK (see his post history) and has tried to find the legislative basis for it. However, we could not find any definitive basis for it apart from the Ireland Act 1949 and some sections of the Immigration Act 1971. It seems to be based on practice rather than legislation. Can you elucidate further on this topic, perhaps in another thread?

[Salem]

The Irish may be conned, as the Ireland Act 1949 gives Irish citizens no more rights than Australians. Fortunately for them, they should generally be able to recover matters by entry to the UK via the Republic.

The rights of Irish citizens in the U.K. (and vice versa for British citizens in Ireland) are based on the Common Travel Area not the Ireland Act. It is open to either the British or Irish governments to change their domestic legislation but that does not occur as a consequence of leaving the EU.

During your recent absence, Richard W has delved at some length into the special status of Irish citizens in the UK (see his post history) and has tried to find the legislative basis for it. However, we could not find any definitive basis for it apart from the Ireland Act 1949 and some sections of the Immigration Act 1971. It seems to be based on practice rather than legislation. Can you elucidate further on this topic, perhaps in another thread?

The Document released yesterday by the UK Government refers to the CTA.
Nothing will change in regards to Irish people -

5) Our proposals as set out below are without prejudice to Common Travel Area arrangements between the UK and Ireland (and the Crown Dependencies), and the rights of British and Irish citizens in each others’ countries rooted in the Ireland Act 1949. These arrangements reflect the long-standing social and economic ties between the UK and Ireland and pre-date both countries’ membership of the EU. As such, we want to protect the Common Travel Area arrangements, and Irish citizens residing in the UK will not need to apply for settled status to protect their entitlements. We have also been clear that our exit will in no way impact on the terms of the Belfast Agreement. We will continue to uphold in that context the rights of the people of Northern Ireland to be able to identify as British or Irish, or both, and to hold citizenship accordingly.

I take special interest in this aspect as I am a dual national, being born in N.Ireland, I have both Irish and UK Passports. My non EU wife is living with me in London via my Irish Passport, FP, then 5 year RC, as the FP was applied for before 16th July 2012, so my wife stays on the Transitional provisions.

We were going to apply for Permanent Residence in November, as my wife will be here 5 years then, but I think that will now be a pointless exercise as it currently stands, so will wait until the process is set up to apply for 'Settled' status, and apply that way. There is no mention of dual nationals in the document yesterday, so I assume that will stay the same, as in anyone like ourselves who benefit from the Transitional provisions will still do so. Though will have to wait and see. Worst comes to worse, I will just apply under my UK Passport, but due to expense and general hassle of going that route, then 'life in the UK' test etc, I hope things stay the same in regards to people who have the same status as my wife.

But no matter, the CTA insures the Rights of Irish people, which is confirmed again in the document yesterday. Not really understanding where they could be 'conned'.