ILR 10 years lawful residence and paragraph 39E

[REM12]

any inputs or updates from gurus would have been highly appreciated n helpful , as we r in such limbo situation

[Sunny024]

Some are refused and some are allowed, I'm attending a Jr hearing on 6th next month, let's see how it ends

[Ports]

Hi Sunny
My JR permission hearing is on 06th too. After Ahamed case (COA June 2019), UT refuses to accept amended grounds in my case, I have hired a top barrister and he is telling we might get refused in UT due to Ahamed now. He thinks we have to fight in COA. Very frustrated, but no choice.

[Ports]

Some are refused and some are allowed, I'm attending a Jr hearing on 6th next month, let's see how it ends

Hi Sunny
My JR permission hearing is on 06th too. After Ahamed case (COA June 2019), UT refuses to accept amended grounds in my case, I have hired a top barrister and he is telling we might get refused in UT due to Ahamed now. He thinks we have to fight in COA. Very frustrated, but no choice.

[REM12]

GUD LUCK PORTS N SUNNY.. bro's keep updating. hope n best wishes that 6th gonna be gud luk n gud news for u guys n little hope for us as well.

[xeesee]

Some are refused and some are allowed, I'm attending a Jr hearing on 6th next month, let's see how it ends

Hi Sunny
My JR permission hearing is on 06th too. After Ahamed case (COA June 2019), UT refuses to accept amended grounds in my case, I have hired a top barrister and he is telling we might get refused in UT due to Ahamed now. He thinks we have to fight in COA. Very frustrated, but no choice.

Hello,
How was your hearing. Please update.

Thanks

[Ports]

Some are refused and some are allowed, I'm attending a Jr hearing on 6th next month, let's see how it ends

Hi Sunny
My JR permission hearing is on 06th too. After Ahamed case (COA June 2019), UT refuses to accept amended grounds in my case, I have hired a top barrister and he is telling we might get refused in UT due to Ahamed now. He thinks we have to fight in COA. Very frustrated, but no choice.

Hello,
How was your hearing. Please update.

Thanks

Hello my hearing is on 06 September. Was sunny's one 6 August. How did it go Sunny???

[Sunny024]

I attended a friends JR not mine as mine is in COA ,he got refusal based on both Ahmed’s .
Our barrister argued for one hour on how 39e works ,ho just came up with 2 decision papers ,both Ahmad s ,and advised judge not to take decision against reported decisions ,judge agreed .
I wanna say no more ,you see how it is these days

[Ports]

I attended a friends JR not mine as mine is in COA ,he got refusal based on both Ahmed’s .
Our barrister argued for one hour on how 39e works ,ho just came up with 2 decision papers ,both Ahmad s ,and advised judge not to take decision against reported decisions ,judge agreed .
I wanna say no more ,you see how it is these days

Thanks for the update Sunny, This is exactly my Barrister told me at the last conference. That UT judge will follow the COA June 2019 decision as they are bound to do so. We have to fight in COA. When did you apply for COA permission??? Did you receive the hearing date???? I'm trying to work out waiting times.
Please update me. Thanks

[Sunny024]

I applied on. April 2nd ,when Mausam Ahmad case was dismissed in July ,me and UT Ahmad got a letter from COA ,judge was asking if we had any further grounds as mausam ahmad was decided ,we made additional grounds and sent it to COA ,let’s see if they give us permission for full hearing .its highly unlikely . If we get permission,what are the waiting times ?

[Ports]

I applied on. April 2nd ,when Mausam Ahmad case was dismissed in July ,me and UT Ahmad got a letter from COA ,judge was asking if we had any further grounds as mausam ahmad was decided ,we made additional grounds and sent it to COA ,let’s see if they give us permission for full hearing .its highly unlikely . If we get permission,what are the waiting times ?

In my case I received paper hearing rejected in UT in end of May so Applied for Oral hearing then submitted amended grounds in Mid June with a new barrister (he won a similar case in March with same grounds and he is the best one around). Then in July UT judge rejected to accept new grounds telling Mausam Ahamad COA refusal telling grounds failed to address both UT Ahamad case COA Ahamad case. Then got Oral permission hearing date. My case is different to M Ahamad as I had 3 C leave continuously till May 2018. (then applied within 14 days FLR P & F then change that in June 2018 to ILR LR.
But still My barrister tell we will get most probably rejected in UT and we have to go to COA.
I was wondering how long COA will take to have a Oral hearing date. For you it has taken more than 4 months now. M Ahamad case has taken 9 months, I think. 39 E correctly apply for all the other settlement category except LR route. My barrister tell it needs sorting out in COA. If we can do it he will be the only one who can do it. Let's see what happens.

[REM12]

I applied on. April 2nd ,when Mausam Ahmad case was dismissed in July ,me and UT Ahmad got a letter from COA ,judge was asking if we had any further grounds as mausam ahmad was decided ,we made additional grounds and sent it to COA ,let’s see if they give us permission for full hearing .its highly unlikely . If we get permission,what are the waiting times ?

In my case I received paper hearing rejected in UT in end of May so Applied for Oral hearing then submitted amended grounds in Mid June with a new barrister (he won a similar case in March with same grounds and he is the best one around). Then in July UT judge rejected to accept new grounds telling Mausam Ahamad COA refusal telling grounds failed to address both UT Ahamad case COA Ahamad case. Then got Oral permission hearing date. My case is different to M Ahamad as I had 3 C leave continuously till May 2018. (then applied within 14 days FLR P & F then change that in June 2018 to ILR LR.
But still My barrister tell we will get most probably rejected in UT and we have to go to COA.
I was wondering how long COA will take to have a Oral hearing date. For you it has taken more than 4 months now. M Ahamad case has taken 9 months, I think. 39 E correctly apply for all the other settlement category except LR route. My barrister tell it needs sorting out in COA. If we can do it he will be the only one who can do it. Let's see what happens.

hello all, mine is on jr paper hearing as in same. mine is certified and not my dependent so her case is in ftt. so lets see how it goes.its so unfortunate and BIG ??? MARK that continuity is unbroken on other route where 39e applies but where as in long residence case ....free standing, blah blah.god when it gonna end.what i really dont understand up to now is ???? why have none of barrister or anyone raise that same point COA 2019 AHMED CASE JUDGEMENT verdict says. continuity is unbroken when 39e applies for application provision as its a definition of continuous and lawful residence from home office policy guidance. whether its mention on LR guidance or not. similar as 3c, 3d or others rules.

[Sunny024]

Mausam Ahmad in COA took rubbish barrister for hearing

[Cattak]

I applied on. April 2nd ,when Mausam Ahmad case was dismissed in July ,me and UT Ahmad got a letter from COA ,judge was asking if we had any further grounds as mausam ahmad was decided ,we made additional grounds and sent it to COA ,let’s see if they give us permission for full hearing .its highly unlikely . If we get permission,what are the waiting times ?

In my case I received paper hearing rejected in UT in end of May so Applied for Oral hearing then submitted amended grounds in Mid June with a new barrister (he won a similar case in March with same grounds and he is the best one around). Then in July UT judge rejected to accept new grounds telling Mausam Ahamad COA refusal telling grounds failed to address both UT Ahamad case COA Ahamad case. Then got Oral permission hearing date. My case is different to M Ahamad as I had 3 C leave continuously till May 2018. (then applied within 14 days FLR P & F then change that in June 2018 to ILR LR.
But still My barrister tell we will get most probably rejected in UT and we have to go to COA.
I was wondering how long COA will take to have a Oral hearing date. For you it has taken more than 4 months now. M Ahamad case has taken 9 months, I think. 39 E correctly apply for all the other settlement category except LR route. My barrister tell it needs sorting out in COA. If we can do it he will be the only one who can do it. Let's see what happens.

hello all, mine is on jr paper hearing as in same. mine is certified and not my dependent so her case is in ftt. so lets see how it goes.its so unfortunate and BIG ??? MARK that continuity is unbroken on other route where 39e applies but where as in long residence case ....free standing, blah blah.god when it gonna end.what i really dont understand up to now is ???? why have none of barrister or anyone raise that same point COA 2019 AHMED CASE JUDGEMENT verdict says. continuity is unbroken when 39e applies for application provision as its a definition of continuous and lawful residence from home office policy guidance. whether its mention on LR guidance or not. similar as 3c, 3d or others rules.

Please read "Applications from overstayers Version 8.0". Only published on 05th of August this month. On Page 3 of 10 it says it cover below routes and in it is Long residency as well. I know here for this HO will argue that yes it covers Long Residency but only once an applicant completes 10 year lawful continuous residence. My point here is on the page 5 of 10 they also explain that it itself "applying within the grace period 28 or 14 which now is called 39e"" is not a ground for refusal. It is only a ground for refusal if an applicant could not provide reason why he is applying out of time.

Refusal on grounds of overstaying
This section tells caseworkers about considering applications where the applicant has overstayed their original grant of leave.

Any applicant who is applying for leave to remain must not have remained in the UK after the expiry of their original grant of leave, on the date of their application. Remaining in the UK after leave has expired is commonly known as overstaying.

The Immigration Rules were amended with effect from 24 November 2016 to abolish the 28 day grace period, under which applications for leave to remain were not refused on the basis of overstaying if made within 28 days of the expiry of leave. The Immigration Rules now provide for current overstaying to be disregarded in a limited number of scenarios but otherwise it is now a ground for refusal.

First, overstaying will be disregarded if the Secretary of State considers that there was a good reason beyond the control of the applicant or their representative, provided in or with the application, why it could not be made in time, provided that the application is made within 14 days of the expiry of leave.

Second, overstaying will be disregarded where the applicant previously made an intime application which was refused, and the current application was made within 14 days of:

• the refusal of the previous application for leave • the expiry of any leave extended by section 3C of the Immigration Act 1971 • the expiry of the time-limit for making an in-time application for administrative review or appeal (where applicable) • any administrative review or appeal being concluded, withdrawn or abandoned or lapsing

The provision to permit exceptions for overstayers is found in paragraph 39E of the Immigration Rules. This states:

‘This paragraph applies where:

(1) the application was made within 14 days of the applicant’s leave expiring and the Secretary of State considers that there was a good reason beyond the control of the applicant or their representative, provided in or with the application, why the application could not be made in time; or (2) the application was made: (a) following the refusal of a previous application for leave which was made in time; and (b) within 14 days of: (i) the refusal of the previous application for leave; or (ii) the expiry of any leave extended by section 3C of the Immigration Act 1971; or
Page 6 of 10 Published for Home Office staff on 05 August 2019


(iii) the expiry of the time-limit for making an in-time application for administrative review or appeal (where applicable); (iv) any administrative review or appeal being concluded, withdrawn or abandoned or lapsing.’

The 14 day consideration period is calculated from the latest of either the:

• last day of their latest grant of leave to enter or remain • end of any extension of their leave under section 3C or section 3D of the Immigration Act 1971

[Cattak]

the Second thing which is buzzing me that when 276B (v) says that an applicant must not be in any immigration breaches EXCEPT (applied within 14 days).
Our Barristers can also put this in the grounds of appeal that according to HO own written Policy Overstaying is also an immigration breach and this is why they have used the word "except" to give exception to those who have made further application according to paragraph 39e and promised that period (whether previous and current) will be disregarded provided that he has no other immigration breaches for instance in our cases it would be NOT to report at the reporting centre or any other whilst we are overstaying as per 39e rules. The full list of immigration breaches is very long.

[REM12]

HELLO cattak, actually the main problem is not about disregarding when 39e applies. ho, judges agreed on that but they don't count that disregarded time for 10 years lawfully. so i guess that only problem here is to prove continuity and lawfully is unbroken when 39e applies, and have to count towards 10 years. its clearly written in policy guidance of 245AAA for tier2 or appen E for EACC but not written clearly in LR. its written on 276 b v but now its very hard to argue after Ahmad case with it. just have 1 query about it. if someone have previous status on tier2 and refused .within 14 days he applied new application than how HO deal with it ? is his continuity is intact according to the guidance 245aaa or what ? if continuity is broken than whats the point of written on guidance 245aaa its unbroken. if its unbroken than ,why its broken for LR? too much confusing about the rules. btw my jr is also refused and have applied for oral hearing so lets see.

[Sunny024]

Continuity is broken the day your 3c ends and you become an overstayer=broke the rules
But there is an exemption to overstayers if u make an application with in 14days according to 39e and it doesn’t say subsequent leave must be granted where 39e applies like it says for temporary admission.

276b (v)is wrongly drafted
276b(1) says you should be in the uk continuously and lawfully
276b(v) sub para says continues and lawful residence except where 39e applies

276b 1 and 276b v should have been together

Mannan rana judgement clearly says 3c doesn’t apply where39e kicks in ,judge says you are rules complaint and stayed legally by making an application and varying it according to ho rules
If u allow him to vary and make application with in rules what’s the point of refusing ,why did they allow in first place ?”costing 3k and getting automatic refusal ,they should have granted atleast 30 months visa outside the rules

[vinny]

276B(v) states that the periods of overstay will be disregarded, subject to 39E. However, if the application is refused due to an overstay, when 39E disregarded the overstay, then an overstay is not disregarded under 39E. This leads to a contradiction.

I think if the judgment implies a contradiction, then it is flawed.

[xeesee]

Some are refused and some are allowed, I'm attending a Jr hearing on 6th next month, let's see how it ends

Hi Sunny
My JR permission hearing is on 06th too. After Ahamed case (COA June 2019), UT refuses to accept amended grounds in my case, I have hired a top barrister and he is telling we might get refused in UT due to Ahamed now. He thinks we have to fight in COA. Very frustrated, but no choice.

Hello,
How was your hearing. Please update.

Thanks

Hello my hearing is on 06 September. Was sunny's one 6 August. How did it go Sunny???

Hello ports,

Please update after your hearing today.

Thanks

[REM12]

HELLO ports n all,
any new updates on 39e ? n ports how was ur hearing gone? any update. mine jr oral hearing is on 2nd oct. just hope best . lets see.

[Ports]

Hello Remi & all,
My case was adjourned to end of September as there were few procedural issues. HO counsel was not prepared/haven't seen our skelton Arguments. The judge has indicated that she is aware of COA reported judgement and can not over rule it.
But will see how it goes. I don't think we have a hope in UT. But if one of COA cases (Sunny024 etc..) get a good barrister for permission hearing that can be overturned there. Then all the cases will benefit it.
In June Ahamed case (COA) what they have done is affirmed Ahamed 2018 October UT judgement.

So please guys try to take a good barrister for COA permission hearing. It will be worth. My barrister is telling that those cases have not argued properly. Now they are refusing 39 E cases in FTT too since COA case.

Please keep us updated.

[Sunny024]

I would definitely take the best barrister but I need to get permission for hearing in COA which is highly unlikely as COA already addressed and reported this matter .let see how it goes

What does your barrister say about reported Ahmad case in ut and COA ?

[Ports]

I would definitely take the best barrister but I need to get permission for hearing in COA which is highly unlikely as COA already addressed and reported this matter .let see how it goes

What does your barrister say about reported Ahmad case in ut and COA ?

Hi Sunny024,
Do you mean hearing for JR permission in COA??? Is there any reason that you say that they will not give oral permission hearing ??? although Ahamed June 2019 is reported Permission hearing, they should give you a hearing ??? Ahamed COA was certified as TWM in UT refusal hearing.
My barrister says both are wrong UT Ahmed case is twisted 39E due to lack of clarification and Judge's misunderstanding. Then what COA has done is reaffirm that UT judgement. Unlikely UT judges, COA judges are not immigration judges if you look at their Bio. They are from different backgrounds.

May I ask you In your case, Did UT give you permission to go to COA for JR permission???? When did you have your UT hearing for permission??? and how long are you waiting from COA ???? In COA they don't have paper hearing??? do they only have oral hearing?????
Although UT reported Ahamed case in January 2019, They still give permission hearing??? should the same be apply in COA ???? They should give you a permission hearing ???? What is your barrister/solicitor telling about
it. In my hearing they talked about many cases are queuing in both UT & COA due to Ahmeds cases.
Please let me know your thoughts

[Sunny024]

My hearing was in 2nd week of January 2019
Just few days after UT reported ahmads case
Mine wasn’t a jr ,lower tribunal refused my appeal and I was allowed to go to UT as lower tribunal judge made error by raising non disputed issue


At UT my judge echoed the same reasons as UT Ahmad case but cleverly avoided Ahmad decision and reasons on the judgement ,he bombastically copy and pasted same judgement so I applied permission to coa to UT and UT refused so I went to coa requesting for PTA

cOa decides on paper to inform you about the outcome on pta
If they allow they will give you a hearing date if they refuse they will let u know on paper

In my case when coa decided mausam Ahmad case we received a letter from coa in June last week they mentioned mausam Ahmad is now decided and reported ,your case falls in same category and asked if we had any new grounds or else it will be refused
We submitted new grounds and been waiting for decision for pta

Not sure how long it takes or if they give permission to appeal or refuse as matter has already been decided

[Ports]

My hearing was in 2nd week of January 2019
Just few days after UT reported ahmads case
Mine wasn’t a jr ,lower tribunal refused my appeal and I was allowed to go to UT as lower tribunal judge made error by raising non disputed issue


At UT my judge echoed the same reasons as UT Ahmad case but cleverly avoided Ahmad decision and reasons on the judgement ,he bombastically copy and pasted same judgement so I applied permission to coa to UT and UT refused so I went to coa requesting for PTA

cOa decides on paper to inform you about the outcome on pta
If they allow they will give you a hearing date if they refuse they will let u know on paper

In my case when coa decided mausam Ahmad case we received a letter from coa in June last week they mentioned mausam Ahmad is now decided and reported ,your case falls in same category and asked if we had any new grounds or else it will be refused
We submitted new grounds and been waiting for decision for pta

Not sure how long it takes or if they give permission to appeal or refuse as matter has already been decided

Thanks Sunny024 for details.
Am I right to say your case is not a JR permission in COA or whether it's a JR Permission hearing against UT decision. In your case you had appeal rights & went through appeal process in FTT & UT.
In my case JR is against HO decision as I did not have AR and have few grounds.
My Barrister has done revised grounds of claims now after first hearing (where hearing was adjourned) and will see what is the out come.
Was COA Ahamed June 2019 case paper hearing that they reported?????? In any case it took him 8.5 months (he applied end of September 2018 and hearing was on 13 June 2019) I hope in COA judges who are are looking at these papers are immigration judges, as I gather most of them are not and they are not familiar with immigration law.