EEA2 second application returned

[Nimitta]

I am a little bit at loss.

My husband is a self–employed, working from the first day of our arrival (September 2011). As an evidence of his exercising Treaty rights we supplied the following documents:

HMRC letter arranging Direct Debit payments for NIC (date of payments since 30 May)
Latest bank statements (showing Direct Debit payments of NIC)
Latest Invoices
Printout of the freshly submitted Tax Return 2011-2012.

Here is what we just got:

"Unfortunately, the submitted documents are insufficient to establish that you have a right of residence under the 2006 Regulations in any of the ways outline above. I am therefore returning them to you with this letter. This letter will indicate what additional documents or evidence you need to provide should you wish to re-apply for a Residence Card.

Please, not that this is not a formal determination of your status under the Regulations. Our purpose in returning the documents is to enable you to assemble a complete dossier of supporting evidence... bla-bla-bla

If your sponsor is self employed: Original, recent evidence from HM Revenue & Customs to show that he is actively engage as self-employed and registered for and paying tax and National Insurance contributions. Evidence which shows income earned such as trading accounts, bank statements and a current dated original accountant's letter. Invoices and/or customer testimonials in respect of work done and evidence of advertising/business/promotion material....

The previous time they returned documents with the request of the evidence from HMRC (we submitted only bank statements and invoices and POs). So we waited 2 months until the time came to submit tax return. And here we are, again. What kind of evidence they are talking about? My husband filed the tax return online, which is a perfectly acceptable procedure, and HMRC does not send any document which, I guess, is what the HO mean by "Original evidence". We sent the print out of the tax return webpage.

Does anyone has any suggestion of what we can do?

The whole business is a little bit irritating. They can repeat returning my application for as long as they want to. I cannot appeal until they send a refusal letter, can I?

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

The whole business is a little bit irritating. They can repeat returning my application for as long as they want to. I cannot appeal until they send a refusal letter, can I? :shock:

You've hit the nail on the head. You can't appeal because you have not been refused.

You can complain, complain, complain!

[sc2012uk]

send an email to Solvit, maybe they can help:
http://ec.europa.eu/solvit/site/about/index_en.htm

[Nimitta]

Thank you, guys. I thought so.

It looks like an elegant way to deprive EEA family members of their rights has been invented. All the HO has to do is avoid saying "yes" or "no" (like in "Don't say 'yes' or 'no' game), keep copy-pasting a mandatory paragraph starting with "I am not satisfied that...", and a EEA family member neither gets a residence permit nor has the right to appeal.

This is simply FANTASTIC! As a former philosophy student, I admire the wit behind it. As an applicant, I would eagerly wring cw's neck.

Yes, I will complain in any possible way - to SOLVIT and to HO. Any more ideas who I can complain to and what I can possibly do to get out of the impasse?

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

Someone else with similar experience (no resolution yet, I'm afraid).

http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=104772

[keffers]

It seems a perfectly reasonable request. The letter is very specific in what it asks of you. If real self-employment exists, then all the documents should be to hand.

Anyone can claim to be self-employed and register online line but only someone who is actively self-employed will be able to provide the requested documents.

Why not get a job somewhere and save yourself the headache of proving self-employment?

[Nimitta]

Thank you, EUsmileWEallsmile, I will follow your advice to carferan. I'll apply again and include in my application a cover letter describing how exactly my husband exercises the Treaty rights and what evidence we supply in support. I will contact SOLVIT nevertheless, and write all possible complains.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

Why not get a job somewhere and save yourself the headache of proving self-employment?

I don't think this is particularly helpful at all to be frank.

[keffers]

On the contrary, I think it is a far more practical step to take than complaining and waiting. Long ago, someone told me it is far easier to go around a blocked road than to try and force your way through.

Why not take the easy route?

[Nimitta]

Why not get a job somewhere and save yourself the headache of proving self-employment?

Would not it be silly? My husband (he is a translator) has 15 years of experience, clients and reputation in the industry. He is a highly accomplished professional, and yes, as most translators, he works for translation companies as a freelancer. Very few translation companies have in-house translators. This is how the industry runs nowadays.

It seems a perfectly reasonable request. The letter is very specific in what it asks of you. If real self-employment exists, then all the documents should be to hand.

We followed the official EEA2 guide and also have submitted evidence from HMRC. If they need a specific piece of evidence I would gladly comply, but they have to tell me what document they wish us to submit.

Anyone can claim to be self-employed and register online line but only someone who is actively self-employed will be able to provide the requested documents.

Go to the EEA2 official guide and, read the list of requested documents for self-employed. I could have sent ANY of those documents and that should have been sufficient. Instead, I submitted everything short of the letter from accountant. They HAVE TO say why submitting evidence according to the list in their own bloody guide is not enough and what exactly they want to get

Now, a couple of words about your attitude. It looks like you just need to express your irritation and hatred to immigrants in one or another way. I remember your other posts, you know. Change your attitude, try to make sense in your posts or go climb a tree.

[Nimitta]

On the contrary, I think it is a far more practical step to take than complaining and waiting. Long ago, someone told me it is far easier to go around a blocked road than to try and force your way through.

Read the post below. In my particular case, "impractical" is an undestatement. "Plain stupid" better describes it, or, say, "Insane".

[mcovet]

hey nimitta, i hear your pain. firstly, ignore that troll above, waste of space he is.

secondly, as everyone knows, the Ho cannot lay down any specific docs they require to prove this or that fact. so, resubmit the whole application with the covering letter saying you want to proceed on the basis of submitted docs. if they return it again, you can easily take their refusal to accept ur application as a refusal to issue a resid card.

further, contact nwcsu@homeoffice.gsi.gov.uk i think their complaints dep. they will take 20 working days to.investigate, so raise ur points with them saying u want to have ur app decided only on the basis of what u have provided and it necessary refused, with effect they do tell u that they do not believe that ur husb is exercising treaty rights, might as well refuse on this basis.

anyway, if u r not satisfied with the nwcsu response (complaint.can go simultaneously with new application just provide nwcsu with tracking no) escalate ur complaint to.Stage 2 where a more senior rep.will attend to ur case. also, contact ur local mp who will be at hand should stage 2 not lead anywhere, he can raise a complaint with the Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman.

this will take some time, but u must also insist they treat ur case as priority (by informing them of the lost time and whole history of ur case) and they should.attent to it as a matter of urgency (according to theur guidelines).

be patient and persistent, if they return ur app 3rd time u go straight to court with proof that u requested ur app to.be decided on the evidence provided, but it wouldnt go that far. In my view, returning apps is equal to refusal no matter what anyone else says!

good luck and again be patient and persistent, cintact those guys and keep it all.diarised. also if u have suffered any financial losses or are potentially losing out, mention that as well, compensation will be sought

P.P.S. if someone has just establisher a self-employed business, there may be long periods where no money exchanges hands and the person is simply lookong for business, i will provide a link to.the case law mentioning inactivity as self-empl.couning as exercising treaty rights.

[thsths]

In my view, returning apps is equal to refusal no matter what anyone else says!

I agree, it is just a veiled refusal at an early stage to save storage space. You can complain and appeal against it just like any other refusal, although they did not tell you that.

Personally I would get a letter from an agency that you are freelancing for them - that should not be difficult - and start a new application. Ask for it to be treated as priority, especially if you need the residence card (but you may need to provide evidence).

At the same time you can also start a complaint, if you like, and an appeal, I assume.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

..and appeal against it just like any other refusal, although they did not tell you that...

Could you provide the specific steps one would go through in order to appeal against something that has not been formally rejected?

I don't know how to do this.

[Nimitta]

Thank you, mcovet! Thanks a lot.

I will reapply and file a claim, but actually I hope a good cover letter will settle the matter and won't have to take further steps. I have already missed the trip to Canary Islands because the HO sent my first application back (and we lost money for the plain tickets), and now we planned a trip in the end of August, a trip I would not want to miss.

P.P.S. if someone has just establisher a self-employed business, there may be long periods where no money exchanges hands and the person is simply lookong for business, i will provide a link to.the case law mentioning inactivity as self-empl.couning as exercising treaty rights.


Well, my husband submitted tax return in April. The profit from self-employment was roughly 17,000 (we arrived in September 2011). I thought (and I still think I am correct) that the printout of tax return with calculated income tax charges and NIC4 is enough to prove that he is indeed working as self-employed, and not just registered with HMRC.

[keffers]

Now, a couple of words about your attitude. It looks like you just need to express your irritation and hatred to immigrants in one or another way. I remember your other posts, you know. Change your attitude, try to make sense in your posts or go climb a tree.

Unfortunate combination of phrases there. Be careful otherwise the thought police will be after you.

Its unfortunate that the first piece of advice some people give is to complain. The guidance clearly states the list of documentation is not exhaustive and unless we are privvy to copies of your submitted documents we do not know what credibility can be given to them. If the person dealing with them had doubts then it is your responsibility to satisfactorily answer such queries.

I am currently representing someone who has been refused a permit for quite spurious and ludicrous reasons - their family member has lived and paid taxes in this country for nearly 30 years. A very good reason to be angry but they will jump through whatever hoop they have to and take advice from wherever it comes.

The key phrase from their letter seems to be 'actively engaged in self-employment'. The documents you have submitted do not really show that - only that someone is registered as self-employed (the recent invoices were obviously not enough to support self-employment for any length of time). Like many other ways of complying with the regulations, I suspect this avenue has been abused and as a result is now subject to a more detailed check.

Take it on the chin and just get whatever is required of you.

[mcovet]

Now, a couple of words about your attitude. It looks like you just need to express your irritation and hatred to immigrants in one or another way. I remember your other posts, you know. Change your attitude, try to make sense in your posts or go climb a tree.

Unfortunate combination of phrases there. Be careful otherwise the thought police will be after you.

Its unfortunate that the first piece of advice some people give is to complain. The guidance clearly states the list of documentation is not exhaustive and unless we are privvy to copies of your submitted documents we do not know what credibility can be given to them. If the person dealing with them had doubts then it is your responsibility to satisfactorily answer such queries.

I am currently representing someone who has been refused a permit for quite spurious and ludicrous reasons - their family member has lived and paid taxes in this country for nearly 30 years. A very good reason to be angry but they will jump through whatever hoop they have to and take advice from wherever it comes.

The key phrase from their letter seems to be 'actively engaged in self-employment'. The documents you have submitted do not really show that - only that someone is registered as self-employed (the recent invoices were obviously not enough to support self-employment for any length of time). Like many other ways of complying with the regulations, I suspect this avenue has been abused and as a result is now subject to a more detailed check.

Take it on the chin and just get whatever is required of you.

you don't get it do you? She doesn't mind giving what they request, in fact from the list she submitted, it is more than enough. Secondly, let them REFUSE her application on the basis of insufficient docs, she will then go to court and easily overturn this ridiculous decision, but the UKBA simply return her docs without saying NO.

It seems you are simply envious that the EEA folk have it easier than whoever you are dealing with. Go waste somebody else's time mate, why should she "take it on the chin"? that means putting up with UKBA's inefficiency and ILLEGALITY, NO, she shouldn't end of story. Now, go... climb a tree

[mcovet]

Thank you, mcovet! Thanks a lot.

I will reapply and file a claim, but actually I hope a good cover letter will settle the matter and won't have to take further steps. I have already missed the trip to Canary Islands because the HO sent my first application back (and we lost money for the plain tickets), and now we planned a trip in the end of August, a trip I would not want to miss.

if you are a non-visa national to the UK then no claim here. Also, even if you are a visa national to the UK, you cannot really claim for the plane tickets if they were booked to travel within 6 months of submission of docs. Because they can easily say that even if they had kept your application, it would have still not be guaranteed to have been completed before your travel arrangement.

If you did lose out by buying tickets to travel 6 months AFTER submitting application, then this can easily be reclaimed in a court of law (together with court costs).

How else are you affected by this situation? It is clear that you are unable to seek employment because you don't have the permission CONFIRMED by the UKBA, nor have the temporary Certificate of Application to do so.

My guess is that the first hurdle of making sure they accept your application is insurmountable due to those sifting team's complete ignorance of law or desire to listen/read covering letters. Write in RED with heading, potential legal action for failure to accept the application, or smth like that.

[keffers]

And you, Mr/Mrs/Ms/Miss Angry have a thing about confrontation - whether with me or UKBA. Read your own posts.

A more information answer is better than a no answer - but for some, anything less than a yes is an insult and a reason to complain. The UKBA may be right; it may be wrong. For some it will always be wrong unless it says yes (a bit like the reaction from a child).

If UKBA had simply said no, then the complaint would be they had not given any indication of what was required. If they had said no and an appeal was undertaken, how many months before an answer? And at what cost in time effort and money?

Simply supply what they ask for. Its very clear and uncontencious. It should not be an issue if the self-employment is genuine over several months as stated. The supporting evidence that is being asked for is absolutely basic stuff and should all be to hand. What is the problem?

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

Its unfortunate that the first piece of advice some people give is to complain

If one has supplied evidence as per UKBA's guidance, and has application returned without explaining what's missing, I believe one would be entitled to complain.

Granted, I don't have sight of what the applicant sent, but given that they appear to have a reasonable understanding of their situation and requirements, I don't presume to suppose they didn't send good evidence. It would appear that the poster received a stock letter that simply lists many of the documents that they've already sent.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

if you are a non-visa national to the UK then no claim here.

If a visa national, one could also have applied for a Schengen visa. UKBA have passport returning facilities.

[keffers]

The aim is to get the permit. If complaining actually changed anything the UKBA would be the most effecient state institution in the world.

Get the permit - then think about complaining.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

The aim is to get the permit. If complaining actually changed anything the UKBA would be the most effecient state institution in the world.

Get the permit - then think about complaining.

On the contrary, a well structured complaint can make a big difference. Sitting back and accepting inefficiency does not lead to improvements.

You are entitled to your opinion, but apart from suggesting that the OP's family member gives up their job and seeks work, what insights can you bring?

(It's a card, not a permit btw).

[mcovet]

If they had said no and an appeal was undertaken, how many months before an answer? And at what cost in time effort and money??

Appeals under EEA regulations are FREE of charge, as far as I'm concerned. If the court finds UKBA acted unreasonably and could have easily decided in favour of the applicant on the basis of supplied docs, applicant is entitled to claim losses suffered, actual and potential earnings etc.

Such claims and compensation would only improve the UKBA service and prevent turning away genuine and correct applications etc.

Go read your own posts, and find at least 1 in 10 where you don't hint on having a go at the OPs...trololo man

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaqC5FnvAEc

[keffers]

You are entitled to your opinion, but apart from suggesting that the OP's family member gives up their job and seeks work, what insights can you bring?

(It's a card, not a permit btw).

Correct. I did state it was a permit.

Wrong. I never suggested anyone give up being self-employed. I know of many translators/interpreters who quite easily combine the two. It would only be a temporary state of affairs to satisfy the requirements of obtaining the card.

If there were a direct correlation between complaining and a high chance of a successful outcome then complain away; but more often than not the advice to complain appears to be a way of having a go at UKBA by proxy - rather than being a well structured and concillitory attempt to resove a disagreement in the application of rules.

On the original point there is nothing unreasonable that has been asked for - now if someone reading this thread supplies everything that has been requested above and was unsuccesful on the basis it was not enough, even I would question the rationale of UKBA.