EEA FP, UK-HR couple, Singh with a twist

[Mark.Boats]

Hi everybody

Having read a few threads on here and seen the excellent advice given by members I've joined up as I believe our case is somewhat of a twist on the usual. I've not been able to find any information on our seemingly unique circumstances.

I am a British citizen, my partner is Croatian. We have been together for just over two years but have not married. We have applied for an EEA Family Permit here in Zagreb to come to the UK on the basis that we have a durable relationship of more than two years, and that I exercised treaty rights by working in another EU member state last year whilst we were living together. We have our interview on 9th April.

Now, this is where the twist enters...

Both my partner and I have worked on seagoing yachts - these are large (50-150m) where the crew live on board. The period of work that I wish to be considered for our application spans from 22/05/12-30/09/12 - I was contracted to work on a yacht based in Italy, but flagged in Malta, both EU member states - all voyages were in Intl waters or the waters of Italy and France only. The yacht was managed by a French company but I was contracted to, and paid by, a Guernsey based Crew Employment Service (presumably to save the yacht owner some tax)

Frankly, I have no idea how the IO is going to view this, or even understand it!! We've had immigration officials not understand how yacht crew seems to work before - On a simplistic level we were living together and I was working in Italy, another EU member state. Now we wish to come to the UK to settle permanently.

Financial requirements shouldn't affect us, we are very lucky that we exceed the ridiculous cash savings level required for a Spouse Visa application and there's no circumstance where we would need to fall back on public funds once we enter the UK.

Also, would the IO look at the fact that Croatia is only a few months away from accession to the union (even with limited free movement rights to the UK) when considering our application?

I hope I've explained myself well, I'm sure I'll have missed some details here and there as I've spent the last few hours reading EU Directives, treaties, court rulings and the like so I'm a little fried!! Please ask if there are any details I've omitted...

Thanks in advance

[Jambo]

Wouldn't it be just simpler to move back in July once Croatia joins the EU?

[Mark.Boats]

Wouldn't it be just simpler to move back in July once Croatia joins the EU?

Thanks for the reply Jambo - don't suppose you're the "Jambo" I know from "the org" ?

The last time I read the Statement of Intent on the UKBA website they were planning to limit the free movement of Croatian passport holders to three months at a time and no permission to work:

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/publicatio ... iew=Binary

I interpret that the only way to avoid these restrictions would be to marry. Now call us old fashioned but when we do tie the knot we'll both be doing it for the first time and we both consider it very much a one time deal. Out of principle we would not want to do it in order to qualify for immigration status somewhere...

In addition to the above, we both really just want to get moving, we've spent two years travelling around and if the UKBA hadn't changed the rules governing the financial requirements of partner visas in December we would have applied for one of those already...

[Jambo]

I guess there is no harm in trying the EEA route although I don't know how they would treat your yacht employment.

The restrictions on Croatian are not so strict. They will allow to enter and stay as long as they wish (the 3 months only refers to the no restriction period). They could always be self employed, student or self sufficient (living off savings or your income). The only restriction is on employment. If you are high skill, the HO will authorise your employment it's the low skill immigrants which they try to keep out (although they could always do what many Romanians are doing - register as self employed and sell Big Issue).

[Mark.Boats]

Thanks Jambo - I need to go back and read the Statement again as I missed what you're saying

As you say, our EEA application was free, so it's worth applying if just to see what their take on our situation is...

I appreciate that we could move freely, but both of us are workers, ideally we'd both want to get to the UK and start working asap - she's not a highly skilled worker but she's intelligent, and definitely not someone I'd expect to be offering me copies of the Big Issue

[John]

Mark, from the Home Office guidance you will see that some Croatian nationals are to be exempt from the work restrictions, namely :-

those Croatian nationals who are also the spouse or civil partner of a national of the UK

So I ask, is marriage a possibility?

[Mark.Boats]

So I ask, is marriage a possibility?

Hah!!

John that's a difficult question...

No doubt we wish to spend our lives together, raise a family together, but we're both of the opinion that unless it's absolutely essential we wouldn't get married for the sake of obtaining permission to live and work in the UK - Perhaps we're being idealistic, I don't know?

As a technical aside, if were were to marry in order to get around the restrictions placed on Croatian nationals come 1st July, could that be construed as a marriage of convenience?

Or, could the definition of "Spouse / Civil Partner" extend to unmarried partners? <-- This last bit I suspect not, but can't find the terms clearly defined on the UKBA website

[Mark.Boats]

The restrictions on Croatian are not so strict. They will allow to enter and stay as long as they wish (the 3 months only refers to the no restriction period).

Hi again Jambo

Im still struggling to see how the Statement of Intent says what I quoted above. Could you explain how you came to that conclusion as no matter how many times I read the whole document start to end I can only see Para. 8 that says:

After 1 July 2013, Croatian nationals will no longer be subject to immigration control and will have an
unrestricted right to enter and reside (but not to work) in the UK for up to 3 months. They will therefore
no longer require leave to enter or remain in the UK, whether or not they intend to take employment.

I would interpret that as saying a Croatian national can come to the UK and enter without restriction provided they are not employed, but if they wish to stay beyond three months then some form of application would need to be made to the UKBA.

[Jambo]

Well, the statement of intent is not very clear on that, I agree.

Basically the EU directive on free movement (2004/EC/38) entitles any EEA national to move freely between the member states without restriction up to 3 months. After 3 months, the EEA national is required to “exercise treaty rights” in order to reside in the member state. You can exercise treaty rights either by employment (worker, self employed), study or being self-sufficient (living off saving / other income without becoming a burden on the state). The Accession treaty only allows the UK to restrict access to the UK labour market as a worker. They can’t restrict other rights under the directive.

This is hinted in section 12 in the statement of intent:

12. Work in a self-employed capacity will not be subject to work authorisation because the terms of the
Accession Treaty do not permit the UK to restrict the exercise of rights of free movement for the purposes
of establishment. Those exercising a right to reside as a self-employed person (or as a self-sufficient
person) will, however, be subject to work authorisation in the event that they go on to engage in work in an
employed capacity.

This is the same way A8 nationals were treated between 2004-2011 and how A2 nationals (Romanian & Bulgarians) are treated now (2007-2014). See Bulgarian and Romanian nationals

[Mark.Boats]

Thank you jambo, that makes much more sense - doesn't surprise me that the wording is obtuse, the embassy out here in Zagreb have been less use than a chocolate teapot so far

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

I am a British citizen, my partner is Croatian. We have been together for just over two years but have not married. We have applied for an EEA Family Permit here in Zagreb to come to the UK on the basis that we have a durable relationship of more than two years, and that I exercised treaty rights by working in another EU member state last year whilst we were living together. We have our interview on 9th April.

Both my partner and I have worked on seagoing yachts - these are large (50-150m) where the crew live on board. The period of work that I wish to be considered for our application spans from 22/05/12-30/09/12 - I was contracted to work on a yacht based in Italy, but flagged in Malta, both EU member states - all voyages were in Intl waters or the waters of Italy and France only. The yacht was managed by a French company but I was contracted to, and paid by, a Guernsey based Crew Employment Service (presumably to save the yacht owner some tax)

Did you have a home (on land) together, and if so where? Were either you or your partner registered with any EU member state during this work, and if so what sort of immigration or residence documentation did you have? Have you worked in any other capacity (e.g. for a few weeks at McDonalds) in the EU but outside of the UK?

[Mark.Boats]

Did you have a home (on land) together, and if so where? Were either you or your partner registered with any EU member state during this work, and if so what sort of immigration or residence documentation did you have? Have you worked in any other capacity (e.g. for a few weeks at McDonalds) in the EU but outside of the UK?

During our search for a job together we stayed in temporary accommodation, long term holiday flat rentals, so no land based home, once employed we lived on board - our "address" during the employment would be either the ship address at Portosole in Italy, or the address of the management company in Antibes, France.

No other immigration documentation for me, as a UK passport holder they don't even stamp my passport when I enter France any more. Partner's passport is stamped at each entry and exit of the EU, no other paperwork is required on our part to go about our work aboard the yachts.

Just to try and explain a little, the situation of working on board is very much one of you needing to be there to get the job. A non-EU national will enter the EU country, normally France, either with a Schengen Visa, or in our case, an exemption from needing a Shengen Visa, but once they are employed aboard they are classed as not being part of the Schengen agreement framework, and any time spent employed does not contribute towards time available under our exemption of the Shengen Visa (90 days in any six month period). A valid contract is documentary evidence of a valid reason for there being more than 90 days between your EU entry/exit stamps and in our movements since we've never had any issues.

This is not the same as being outside the EU because in addition to the Schengen agreement, non-EU nationals are not able to work aboard EU yachts based in their flag state, so no work on French flagged yachts based in France, or Italian flagged yachts in Italy.

Our yacht was based in Italy, but flagged in Malta - both EU member states, but we spent the vast majority of our time in Portosole - we must have resided somewhere during our time aboard, in laymans terms that's where I would say we were residing, but I don't know how the EU/UKBA/ECJ would interpret it...


Edit to add, I have detailed logs of the vessel's movements, dates, ports of departure and arrival, anchorage locations and the like, as part of my records for further yacht training in the UK

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

I think it is pretty clear that you have worked in the EU (outside the UK).

Is your goal that your partner be able to work in the UK on arrival? If so you will need to apply for an EEA Family Permit for them.

Otherwise you can just go to the UK, and once there apply for a Residence Card. But expect that will take 6 months to issue.

[Mark.Boats]

I think it is pretty clear that you have worked in the EU (outside the UK).

Is your goal that your partner be able to work in the UK on arrival? If so you will need to apply for an EEA Family Permit for them.

Otherwise you can just go to the UK, and once there apply for a Residence Card. But expect that will take 6 months to issue.

Thank you for the support, and your website - probably the best resource I've found online regarding these kind of EEA matters!! I hope whoever views our application sees the same way!!

Yes, our goal is to now move permanently to the UK and settle, with both of us working. We have submitted our EEA Family Permit online and our interview is on 9th April in Zagreb - we're crossing about everything a human can cross right now...

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

There are two reasons they might reject:
(1) if they do not think it is a long term stable relationship
(2) if they do not think you have been working outside the UK.

I feel like you have covered (2) in this thread.
(1) is harder because you have not had a house together. What evidence do you have of an ongoing life together? Kids? Property together? Retirement plan together? other???

[Mark.Boats]

OK, this might end up being another long rambling post, but here we go...

We met in France, both of us had moved to get work on the boats, we met on 11/3/11 and by the end of the week had become close enough that I'd call it a serious relationship. Since we met we've been completely monogamous, no hint of dating anybody else, and to both of us this isn't a fling or something silly, we have a serious desire to be with each other forever, although this is obviously impossible to prove with documents and the like!!

A few weeks later I got a job on one boat and she got a job on another, but neither of us was happy without the other and after six weeks her owner screwed her over and didn't pay and circumstances on mine gave me a chance to exit cleanly - so we both resigned. During the time we were apart we exchanged emails daily, sometimes two or three, all logged, we also exchanged SMS messages but the logs of these are on a crappy old phone that I wouldn't know how to extract right away?

After we left our boats we met in Venice on 1/6/11 with the intention of going to Zagreb together, meeting and staying with her family for a week or two and heading back to France to find a job on the same boat. It was there we discovered the Schengen Zone and it's implication of her not being able to enter the Zone for another three months.

So, we decided to spend the summer in the UK with my family, and we flew to the UK on 21/6/11, and stayed until 27/9/11 when we drove back to France, and stayed with a friend paying reduced rent in a downstairs apartment. After two months of looking we found work in December as relief crew, which all wound up just before Christmas. On 24/12/11 She flew back to Zagreb and I drove back to the UK, I joined her in Zagreb for new year and we then flew back to the UK on 11/1/12.

When the 2012 yacht season began we flew back out to France on 17/3/12 and began our search for work. Barring a return to the UK for a week for my mum's birthday at the beginning of May we were in France or working on board until 1/10/12, where we drove to Zagreb, and on 26/10/12 we drove back to the UK.

On 6/2/13 my partner flew out to Zagreb, we'd booked the flights in advance as we thought in mid march we could apply for a Partner's Visa, but the change in the financial requirement scuppered us at the last minute, fortunately a family member stepped in a gave us the amount required to meet the financial requirement on cash savings alone, as none of our income from the last two years could be combined with our savings

Unfortunately, as this only entered my account on 1/2/13 it cannot be counted towards any application until 1/8/13 - which seems ridiculous given that all it will do between now and then is sit there while we waste our money in other savings living in Croatia when we could be getting started in the UK!! But I digress. I flew out to Croatia on 27/2/13 and we've been here since.

We've basically not spent a day apart since we reunited in Venice, save for s couple of weeks here and there we've lived and travelled together, despite in meaning neither of us can work in the other's home nation.

We have receipts for all our travel tickets showing that we moved together, and the UKBA Guidance for Supporting Documents states that they will accept photographs - of which we have literally thousands, of us, travelling where we said we did, doing things a couple would do

Our plan as such is to submit our email logs, travel documents and photographs (can you submit digital images on a USB stick or similar?)

We have no children, no property, no official retirement plan yet (we're 28/27 years old)

We do have a plan once we come to the UK, we have friends in Wiltshire who have said that until we find our feet we can stay with them (as well as permanent beds at both my divorced parents' houses) - I worked for a civil engineering firm before I left that has an office in Bristol, my old boss and I are solid friends (I see him and his family more than my extended family when we're in the UK!!) and he has always said if I wanted to come back to the company he would set me up in Bristol. We have a plan, we're not just coming to the UK expecting the world to owe us a living or live off savings

I hope that's given some insight into our relationship, I have a few wonderings...

Would a signed declaration by my old boss of six years, or from a close family friend who has been a church minister for decades, stating that we've known each other and been in a stable, durable relationship since XYZ, add credence to our case?

[Mark.Boats]

Another query...

I've been digging back through all the Singh related threads on here and I saw in one thread you recommended submitting just the minimum documentation required to qualify for the Family Permit

Now, in our case, while I was working on the boat in Italy, my partner was as well - I can submit my contract to show that I was working in Italy just fine, but to show that we were living together at the time the most comprehensive paperwork I can think to submit is her contract of employment...

At this point, I imagine whoever deals with our application scratching their head as they try to compute how I could be in the EU as a worker yet also have an identical contract from a non-EU partner working on the same boat? There is her certificate of discharge which shows her dates of engagement and discharge without being a full contract.

I don't want to give them ammunition to say I wasn't actually working in the EU as my partner was working as well!!

I knew this would be complicated!!

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

You are providing way too much detail. Focus on the key facts, both here and in dealing with UKBA.

[Mark.Boats]

You are providing way too much detail. Focus on the key facts, both here and in dealing with UKBA.

Yeah, I kind of figured that when I read back through what I posted, it was intended to give people here the best impression of our situation and I wouldn't consider writing out such a novel for the embassy staff to read!!

OK, key facts - From what I've read I think I have it, we need to show that:

1. We have a "durable" relationship

To do this we're intending to submit a brief explanation of how we met and how we've lived and travelled together since, our email logs from early 2011 showing our back and forth conversations, and photographs of us taken over the last two years.

Queries:
-Can I submit photographs digitally or must they all be printed?
-I could also submit Skype logs of the times when we weren't together - they're rather... personal, but if they need to be submitted then so be it...
-Could statements from people such as my previous work superior, or my local church minister who's know me and my family for almost twenty years, add weight to our case?

2. That I was working in an EU member state other than the UK

To do this I intend to submit my contract of employment showing I was crew aboard yacht from 24/5/12 to 30/9/12 and also my MCA Certificate of Discharge, that shows that I joined the yacht in Italy, that I left the yacht in Nice, France, and basic details of our movements during my time on board, which are in French and Italian waters.

Queries:
- Will my contract be enough or should I also submit bank statements showing that I received the payments described in the contract?

3. That during my time in Italy we were living together

To do this I can submit my partner's contract of employment and/or her Maltese (rather than UK MCA) Certificate of Discharge. The contract only shows our "Repatriation Destination" as Sanremo, no other details of the vessel, it's all employment related, making me think to submit just the Certificate of Discharge, which shows that we joined the yacht on the same date and left on the same date, in the same places.

Queries:
-Could they interpret her employment on the same yacht as meaning I wasn't employed within the EU?

Thanks again for the replies, it's so good to feel like we're not all alone in this!!!

[Mark.Boats]

Just a few more days until the interview, hopefully we've got it right...

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

Do you specifically have an "interview"? Is is this just the standard appointment to submit your fingerprints?

[Mark.Boats]

Do you specifically have an "interview"? Is is this just the standard appointment to submit your fingerprints?

Hi, It's an automated appointment that is generated by the online application system - I kind of assumed they'd at least briefly speak to us both, but it seems as if it might just be an appointment to submit prints and documents...

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

Don't expect much of an "interview". Think of it more like applying for a driver's license.

[Mark.Boats]

Yeah, I was coming to that conclusion...

Hope the documents we're submitting can show our relationship is durable...

Have you any idea if I, as the EEA National, will be allowed to accompany my partner in the embassy? We do everything together so unless they have a good reason I'd want to be with her...

[Mark.Boats]

Well, that was fun...

Got to the embassy, woman on the door was the same one as before who was totally useless, this time she managed to jam my umbrella in the sliding door...

Got inside, I had to wait while my partner went into the next room. Staff member was quite possibly the rudest most arrogant fool I've ever heard - my Croatian in basic but even I could tell he was trying to be as condescending as possible...

He claimed that there was "No way for her to apply for this permit because her partner in British" - When she pushed the issue and mentioned Surinder Singh he told her "Well OK, If you're sure you want to waste your time I'll look at your application but you really should do your research better"!! Could only have been more pathetic if he'd called her "poppet" afterwards.

Finally convinced him we did want to submit our application, and we got the fingerprints and photo done.

Whole process really knocked my partner's confidence a bit, she was almost on the verge of tears coming out of being treated like vermin and I'm absolutely fuming!!

Anyway, we got a call ten minutes later from the same guy, who miraculously had phoned the UKBA and was happy to tell us he'd "found a way we could submit an application" - funny that!!!

No apology, no sense of being wrong, spoke as if he was doing US a favour!!


So, upshot is, our application has been accepted and is being shipped wherever they process them now (Belgrade? Warsaw?) - should have our decision in one to three weeks. I so hope the same guy is there if we get to open the envelope and get our permit in front of him...


So, frankly I'm pissed off, and I'm intending to complain to the UKBA regardless of the outcome of our application. Should I complain directly to the UKBA in the UK, or to the Embassy itself?