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Directive 38/2004 EC loopholes

Use this section for any queries concerning the EU Settlement Scheme, for applicants holding pre-settled and settled status.

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walidukdz
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Posts: 81
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:33 pm

Directive 38/2004 EC loopholes

Post by walidukdz » Sun Apr 07, 2013 2:59 am

Hello fellow camarades Just want to post a little info that I have lernt a couple of days ago. I recently got My PR before I had Residence Card of a Family memeber of an EEANational .My wife And I before used to travel to Europe France ,Germany,Spain without the need for me to apply for a Schengen visa thanks to The Directive 38/2004/EC. however the funny part is .we are meant to traval to spain in a month. contacted the spanish embassy just to be have a clear mind.they ask me to scan my residence both of them. then got an email back telling me that I would require a visa to travel to Spain. I emailed back teling them that Directive 38/2004/EC clearly states my right same as my Spouse. I got another reply from them saying "Please note that “Residence Card of a Family Member of an EEA National" is different permit than “Permanent residence card” therefore visa is required. "
My question is has anyone encountered the same situation,the second is .it is a bit silly for someone with a 5 years residence to have more right than a Permanant residence.
thanks for reply.
EEA3 & EEA4 sent 26 June 2012
Received by HO 27 June 2012
COA for EEA4 application received 19 July 2012 (dated 13 July 2012)
PR for EEA3 received 26 July2012 (dated 13 July 2012)
PR for EEA4 received 1st november 2012 (dated 29 October 2012

EUsmileWEallsmile
Moderator
Posts: 6019
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2011 8:22 pm

Post by EUsmileWEallsmile » Sun Apr 07, 2013 8:47 am

You ought to be able to use your permanent residence card in just the same way as the previous residence card. Unfortunately, the directive does not explicitly state article 20 cards can be used in lieu of visa, though it ought to be implied. Also, the format of the permanent residence card is not fixed and the UK chose not be mention family member on it.

On the positive side, the guidance for issuing schengen visas does state that an article 20 residence card can be used in lieu of visa.

acme4242
Senior Member
Posts: 604
Joined: Tue Nov 18, 2008 12:03 pm

Post by acme4242 » Sun Apr 07, 2013 12:03 pm

Can you please e-mail the Spanish Embassy, again, and ask them
to read the Schengen Handbook instructions that Embassies are suppose to follow.

http://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/polici ... 620_en.pdf
The same visa exemption must be extended also to those third
country family members who hold a valid permanent residence
card issued under Article 20 of the Directive (replacing the
5-year residence card issued under article 10 of the Directive).
Yes, its a clear fault in Directive 2004/38/EC, that it didn't mention Art 20 cards, but common sense and instruction from the EUROPEAN COMMISSION makes it clear.

Its not a loophole in 2004/38/EC its a fault, but using common sense gives correct guidance.

walidukdz
Junior Member
Posts: 81
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:33 pm

Post by walidukdz » Sun Apr 07, 2013 5:24 pm

Thank you guys for swift answers ! I emailed back the Spanish embassy. Explained about the procedure that they are supposed to follow . I will post again their answers .
EEA3 & EEA4 sent 26 June 2012
Received by HO 27 June 2012
COA for EEA4 application received 19 July 2012 (dated 13 July 2012)
PR for EEA3 received 26 July2012 (dated 13 July 2012)
PR for EEA4 received 1st november 2012 (dated 29 October 2012

walidukdz
Junior Member
Posts: 81
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:33 pm

Post by walidukdz » Mon Apr 08, 2013 1:36 pm

Hi guys just got a reply from Spanish embassy help desk .here is what they said" As stated earlier, you will require a visa to travel to Spain."
Please refer to the following link for more information:
http://es.vfsglobal.co.uk/eea.html
Now I have ticket but don't know what to do . Risk it and travel visa free . Or book an appointment and hope that I get a visa .
It's getting ridiculous .
EEA3 & EEA4 sent 26 June 2012
Received by HO 27 June 2012
COA for EEA4 application received 19 July 2012 (dated 13 July 2012)
PR for EEA3 received 26 July2012 (dated 13 July 2012)
PR for EEA4 received 1st november 2012 (dated 29 October 2012

sheraz7
Respected Guru
Posts: 2509
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2011 8:56 pm
Location: UK

Post by sheraz7 » Mon Apr 08, 2013 3:06 pm

walidukdz wrote:Hi guys just got a reply from Spanish embassy help desk .here is what they said" As stated earlier, you will require a visa to travel to Spain."
Please refer to the following link for more information:
http://es.vfsglobal.co.uk/eea.html
Now I have ticket but don't know what to do . Risk it and travel visa free . Or book an appointment and hope that I get a visa .
It's getting ridiculous .
As a precaution apply schengen visa and perhaps they might interpreting it in that way that EEA4 PR is a settled status in UK and therefore, non-eea national no longer depend on EEA national activities in contrary of EEA2 RC.
Please donot send PM. Write in open forum to facilitate others too.
REGARDS

Graham Weifang
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Posts: 239
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2011 12:33 pm
Location: Cheshire, UK
Mood:
China

Post by Graham Weifang » Mon Apr 08, 2013 4:54 pm

acme4242 wrote:Can you please e-mail the Spanish Embassy, again, and ask them
to read the Schengen Handbook instructions that Embassies are suppose to follow.

http://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/polici ... 620_en.pdf
The same visa exemption must be extended also to those third
country family members who hold a valid permanent residence
card issued under Article 20 of the Directive (replacing the
5-year residence card issued under article 10 of the Directive).
Yes, its a clear fault in Directive 2004/38/EC, that it didn't mention Art 20 cards, but common sense and instruction from the EUROPEAN COMMISSION makes it clear.

Its not a loophole in 2004/38/EC its a fault, but using common sense gives correct guidance.
.
.
Page 90 of the attached document I believe.

EUsmileWEallsmile
Moderator
Posts: 6019
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2011 8:22 pm

Post by EUsmileWEallsmile » Mon Apr 08, 2013 7:21 pm

walidukdz wrote:Hi guys just got a reply from Spanish embassy help desk .here is what they said" As stated earlier, you will require a visa to travel to Spain."
Please refer to the following link for more information:
http://es.vfsglobal.co.uk/eea.html
Now I have ticket but don't know what to do . Risk it and travel visa free . Or book an appointment and hope that I get a visa .
It's getting ridiculous .
While this won't solve your immediate problem, you should complain about this to EU commission. An article 20 card is the same as an article 10 card for the purposes of the directive.

walidukdz
Junior Member
Posts: 81
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:33 pm

Post by walidukdz » Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:47 am

Hi again I have email them back explained them about page 90 but they seem to hold tight to There first mail
. The guy replied back" Please note that you still require a visa to travel to Spain, as the resident card held does not state “Residence Card of a Family Member of an EEA National" as per the requirements."
Boring !
EEA3 & EEA4 sent 26 June 2012
Received by HO 27 June 2012
COA for EEA4 application received 19 July 2012 (dated 13 July 2012)
PR for EEA3 received 26 July2012 (dated 13 July 2012)
PR for EEA4 received 1st november 2012 (dated 29 October 2012

EUsmileWEallsmile
Moderator
Posts: 6019
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2011 8:22 pm

Post by EUsmileWEallsmile » Wed Apr 10, 2013 7:15 pm

walidukdz wrote:Hi again I have email them back explained them about page 90 but they seem to hold tight to There first mail
. The guy replied back" Please note that you still require a visa to travel to Spain, as the resident card held does not state “Residence Card of a Family Member of an EEA National" as per the requirements."
Boring !
Indeed, try and complain.

walidukdz
Junior Member
Posts: 81
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:33 pm

Post by walidukdz » Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:30 pm

I was queuing at the VFS global where they proceed visa application and it seems like they are celebrating 50million applications. Sweet . Got to the desk officer . Se straight ask for document I told her before we proceed I explain you few things . She was confused called the manager. I show the manager the Schengen visa handbook page 90 he read it he did not know what to
Say he just said well why are you here then . I replied that your staff gave me Wong information . He told that I better take the handbook when I travel and that they have no idea about it.
To be honest I was going to apply for Schengen visa . Might travel alone one day but they wanted to charge me the full price .plus they said I need to have two empty pages on my passport which I don't have .
Im Travelling the 20 may my wife is now worried if they refuse me the entrance. Will post for the outcome.
Is there a number for European Commission ? How to complain to them.
EEA3 & EEA4 sent 26 June 2012
Received by HO 27 June 2012
COA for EEA4 application received 19 July 2012 (dated 13 July 2012)
PR for EEA3 received 26 July2012 (dated 13 July 2012)
PR for EEA4 received 1st november 2012 (dated 29 October 2012

EUsmileWEallsmile
Moderator
Posts: 6019
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2011 8:22 pm

Post by EUsmileWEallsmile » Fri Apr 26, 2013 6:00 pm

Re complaint, if you go to your europe - there is an email address.

walidukdz
Junior Member
Posts: 81
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:33 pm

Post by walidukdz » Tue May 07, 2013 1:56 am

I emailed your europe and now I don't know what to do this is there answer

You wonder whether Article 5 paragraph 2 Directive 2004/38 which contains a visa exemption subject to the family member having a residence card issued under Article 10 Directive 2004/38 is equally valid for the holder of a Permanent residence card which does not stipulate that the holder is the family member of an EU citizen.

I. Strict reading of Directive 2004/38:

A strict reading of Directive 2004/38 would compel a negative to the question, given that the condition precedent for the triggering of the visa exemption under Article 5 paragraph 2 is the holding of a residence card under Article 10 of Directive 2004/38. This strict reading of the provision in question is what the Spanish authorities have given you, by reliance on the relevant Real Decreto. This is why the Spanish authority is advising you that you must apply and obtain a Spanish entry visa (the so-called Schengen visa).

Real Decreto 1161/2009 from the 10th July 2009 was published in the Bulletin Oficial del Estado (BOE). This Real Decreto provides the following in its single articulation:

«La posesión de la tarjeta de residencia de familiar de ciudadano de la Unión, válida y en vigor, expedida por otro Estado parte en el Acuerdo sobre el Espacio Económico Europeo, eximirá a dichos miembros de la familia de la obligación de obtener el visado de entrada y, a la presentación de dicha tarjeta, no se requerirá la estampación del sello de entrada o de salida en el pasaporte.»

Which translates into:
“Possession of a valid residence card as the family member of a Union citizen, issued by a State party to the European Economic Area shall exempt the said family members from the obligation to obtain an entry visa, and upon production of the same, the passport of the Residence Card holder shall not require any entry or exit stamp”.

Please find the link to the following page of the Spanish Bulletin (BOE):
http://www.boe.es/boe/dias/2009/07/23/p ... -12207.pdf


II Broad Reading of Directive 2004/38:

However, Directive 2004/38 has been interpreted by the Court of Justice of the European Union to read that its provisions should not be limited or interpreted restrictively, as held under paragraph 84 of the Metock Ruling Case C-127/08. We therefore submit that Article 5 paragraph 2 Directive 2004/38 should be read in a broad way.

Given that you have obtained a permanent residence card on the basis of 5 years residence in the UK as the family member of an EU citizen, and that you continue to be married to your wife and to travel with her to other Member States of the EU, a broad interpretation of Article 5 paragraph 2 may arguably enable you to travel to other Member States without having to process an entry visa. Accordingly, you should be able to rely on Article 5 paragraph 2 Directive 2004/38 to argue that you should not have to process a Schengen visa in order to travel with your wife to other Member States of the EU and to also argue that a way to transpose Directive 2004/38 with the useful effect contained in Article 5 paragraph 2 might be to have your UK permanent residence card stipulate that you continue to be the family member of an EU citizen;

Having said that, a way round the issue may be for you to process an application to become a British citizen by way of naturalization (when you are eligible):
http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/briti ... alisation/

This would resolve the issue and enable you to acquire EU free movement rights directly, by being an EU citizen in your own right.

However, please note that there is no express binding authority for the broad reading described above.

In the absence of such binding legal authority, you are advised to process a Schengen visa to facilitate your travel across the EU (given the unlikely scenario that a Member State would voluntarily expand the scope of Article 5 paragraph 2 Directive 2004/38; this is even more unlikely given that in practice, it is the airline which enforces visa on passengers: accordingly, you are likely to be denied boarding the plane to travel to Spain by the airline).

What The hell can I do now ?
EEA3 & EEA4 sent 26 June 2012
Received by HO 27 June 2012
COA for EEA4 application received 19 July 2012 (dated 13 July 2012)
PR for EEA3 received 26 July2012 (dated 13 July 2012)
PR for EEA4 received 1st november 2012 (dated 29 October 2012

Babz
Member of Standing
Posts: 308
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 12:22 pm
Location: UK
United Kingdom

Post by Babz » Tue May 07, 2013 2:14 pm

walidukdz wrote:I emailed your europe and now I don't know what to do this is there answer

You wonder whether Article 5 paragraph 2 Directive 2004/38 which contains a visa exemption subject to the family member having a residence card issued under Article 10 Directive 2004/38 is equally valid for the holder of a Permanent residence card which does not stipulate that the holder is the family member of an EU citizen.

I. Strict reading of Directive 2004/38:

A strict reading of Directive 2004/38 would compel a negative to the question, given that the condition precedent for the triggering of the visa exemption under Article 5 paragraph 2 is the holding of a residence card under Article 10 of Directive 2004/38. This strict reading of the provision in question is what the Spanish authorities have given you, by reliance on the relevant Real Decreto. This is why the Spanish authority is advising you that you must apply and obtain a Spanish entry visa (the so-called Schengen visa).

Real Decreto 1161/2009 from the 10th July 2009 was published in the Bulletin Oficial del Estado (BOE). This Real Decreto provides the following in its single articulation:

«La posesión de la tarjeta de residencia de familiar de ciudadano de la Unión, válida y en vigor, expedida por otro Estado parte en el Acuerdo sobre el Espacio Económico Europeo, eximirá a dichos miembros de la familia de la obligación de obtener el visado de entrada y, a la presentación de dicha tarjeta, no se requerirá la estampación del sello de entrada o de salida en el pasaporte.»

Which translates into:
“Possession of a valid residence card as the family member of a Union citizen, issued by a State party to the European Economic Area shall exempt the said family members from the obligation to obtain an entry visa, and upon production of the same, the passport of the Residence Card holder shall not require any entry or exit stamp”.

Please find the link to the following page of the Spanish Bulletin (BOE):
http://www.boe.es/boe/dias/2009/07/23/p ... -12207.pdf


II Broad Reading of Directive 2004/38:

However, Directive 2004/38 has been interpreted by the Court of Justice of the European Union to read that its provisions should not be limited or interpreted restrictively, as held under paragraph 84 of the Metock Ruling Case C-127/08. We therefore submit that Article 5 paragraph 2 Directive 2004/38 should be read in a broad way.

Given that you have obtained a permanent residence card on the basis of 5 years residence in the UK as the family member of an EU citizen, and that you continue to be married to your wife and to travel with her to other Member States of the EU, a broad interpretation of Article 5 paragraph 2 may arguably enable you to travel to other Member States without having to process an entry visa. Accordingly, you should be able to rely on Article 5 paragraph 2 Directive 2004/38 to argue that you should not have to process a Schengen visa in order to travel with your wife to other Member States of the EU and to also argue that a way to transpose Directive 2004/38 with the useful effect contained in Article 5 paragraph 2 might be to have your UK permanent residence card stipulate that you continue to be the family member of an EU citizen;

Having said that, a way round the issue may be for you to process an application to become a British citizen by way of naturalization (when you are eligible):
http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/briti ... alisation/

This would resolve the issue and enable you to acquire EU free movement rights directly, by being an EU citizen in your own right.

However, please note that there is no express binding authority for the broad reading described above.

In the absence of such binding legal authority, you are advised to process a Schengen visa to facilitate your travel across the EU (given the unlikely scenario that a Member State would voluntarily expand the scope of Article 5 paragraph 2 Directive 2004/38; this is even more unlikely given that in practice, it is the airline which enforces visa on passengers: accordingly, you are likely to be denied boarding the plane to travel to Spain by the airline).

What The hell can I do now ?
Why not just save yourself the stress and just go ahead and apply for Schengen visa..

walidukdz
Junior Member
Posts: 81
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:33 pm

Post by walidukdz » Tue May 07, 2013 2:38 pm

I went to apply for shengen visa They did not take my application asked me to apply for a new passport because i have nomore pages on my passport when they can stick a visa
EEA3 & EEA4 sent 26 June 2012
Received by HO 27 June 2012
COA for EEA4 application received 19 July 2012 (dated 13 July 2012)
PR for EEA3 received 26 July2012 (dated 13 July 2012)
PR for EEA4 received 1st november 2012 (dated 29 October 2012

Babz
Member of Standing
Posts: 308
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 12:22 pm
Location: UK
United Kingdom

Post by Babz » Tue May 07, 2013 2:58 pm

walidukdz wrote:I went to apply for shengen visa They did not take my application asked me to apply for a new passport because i have nomore pages on my passport when they can stick a visa
I guess you need a new passport then...

walidukdz
Junior Member
Posts: 81
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:33 pm

Post by walidukdz » Tue May 07, 2013 3:05 pm

Babz wrote:
walidukdz wrote:I went to apply for shengen visa They did not take my application asked me to apply for a new passport because i have nomore pages on my passport when they can stick a visa
I guess you need a new passport then...
Sweet
EEA3 & EEA4 sent 26 June 2012
Received by HO 27 June 2012
COA for EEA4 application received 19 July 2012 (dated 13 July 2012)
PR for EEA3 received 26 July2012 (dated 13 July 2012)
PR for EEA4 received 1st november 2012 (dated 29 October 2012

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