Arrival in Ireland and Benefits

[Latintraveller]

I am British and arrived in Ireland in the middle of February. My wife and step-son joined in the middle of March. The government have kindly given me JSA while I get my self-employed business up to speed. In order to have my wife's EU1 form accepted and for her to receive temporary residence should I sign off of JSA by

1) The middle of May (three months after I arrived) or
2) When I send off the EU1 form which will be a week or two before the middle of June (three months after my wife and son arrived)?

Please advise me as I would hate my wife's application to have problems.

Thanks

[Latintraveller]

I would be grateful for a reply as I am terribly confused by the whole process. I have read the Directives many times and find myself getting more confused.

On one hand I read that I should not be an "unreasonable burden" within the first three months and on the other hand I read that I am here without any restrictions for the first three months after which I have to be "employed", "self-employed" etc.

I am thinking of playing it safe and cancelling my JSA (as opposed to "signing off") as the money has not yet been paid to me yet (I have just been told that I pass the Habitual Residency Test but payment has been held up by a backlog). One problem with cancelling the JSA is that we are being told by the Health Exec that we are living on "too little money" to have a medical card as they are awaiting the JSA letter of entitlement. Therefore if I cancel my JSA then we may not get the Medical Card for a while.

The bottom line is that if my wife's or son's temporary residency is put in danger by receiving JSA then I will cancel it right away. If there is no danger then I will continue to claim for a while and stop the claim when I need to. I need some advise though please.

Thanks

[Brigid from Ireland]

1. Once you pass habitual residence, it is hard for SW to reverse that so long as you remain in Ireland. This means that if you sign off, you should be able to sign back on (subject to the means test) as soon as your wife has stamp 4. It is important that you draw JA (even for a week) to show that you passed the habitual residence.

2. I don't know the answer to your question about the immigration stamp. If you want to be very safe, sign off the JSA within three months of your arrival in Ireland (your arrival, not your wife). The rules state that you have three months to establish yourself, so drawing allowance for those three months (or lets say 10 weeks) should pose no problem. Just an opinion, not sure.

3. Once your wife has stamp 4, you can re-apply for JSA or if she works as an employee for 20hours, she can apply for FIS. I presume she is getting child benefit, as you are self employed?

4. Re medical card - I trust you have their decision in writing and have appealed it. I have heard that decision before - earns too little to get a medical card - and it is DAFT - appeal all the way to the Ombudsman and if you have any medical expenses keep receipts.

5. Just curious - is the JSA for yourself only, or does it include payment for your wife and child? If it does not include payment for them, contact SW as soon as the back money is paid to you (not before, after) and ask for the back pay in respect of the wife and child. (Obviously if she was working, there may be an increase or decrease in the amount due to you).

[Latintraveller]

Thanks for your response! I also managed to find (after much searching) where we discussed this issue a few months ago on this forum. Your direct answers here are very useful.

The timing isnt great since I haven't been paid the JSA yet (they say that will occur in a week or two). As my three months will be up very shortly I will have to sign off in a day or two, but I guess (and hope) that wont stop me being paid. The lady who deals with Habitual Residency said to me there is no problem with my HRC and that is on file.

Passing the HRC and your information is very reassuring as our work is very seasonal so we may need a little help to get through the dark winter months particularly for the first year. We do want to give back to Ireland in time and I am sure we will do that ten times over with the taxes we will have to pay!

We are not getting child benefit at the moment as my wife doesnt have the Stamp 4. We will apply for that as soon as she gets it. We will ask for it to be backdated as we didnt have the Stamp 4 (a necessity) when we wanted to apply a few months ago.

I totally agree the Medical Card rules are daft. I know of a few people who are ticking over with very little money and are just surviving, but if they (or we) have a bought of sickness it could bring financial disaster. The assumption that we are lying about our finances is infuriating to say the least.

Thank you for mentioning about appealing the decision. I found an interesting quotation that I emailed to the Health Exec (which they ignored) where a government minister says;

"Where income guidelines are principal benchmark used for deciding medical card eligibility, the HSE does look beyond the applicant's financial situation and has regard to other matters that it considers appropriate in assessing a person for a medical card."

http://www.kildarestreet.com/debates/?i ... 7-20.987.0

[Brigid from Ireland]

Don’t worry about signing off the JA. You simply go to the office and tell them the date you want to stop claiming. Then you get your back money up to that date. Tell them you are stopping claiming because you have got a good job as an employee. Then when that verbal job offer does not materialise (after your wife is sorted out) you can claim again.
Dad (EU citizen who is self employed) can apply for child benefit. He does not need stamp four. Dad is on JA so no problems with Habitual residence. They are unlikely to backdate, so apply soon. Ask for backdating, but don’t expect it.
Medical card – tell anyone you know who is in this position to appeal. They should get GP visit only at a minimum if low income.

[zaza7625]

Thanks for your response! I also managed to find (after much searching) where we discussed this issue a few months ago on this forum. Your direct answers here are very useful.

The timing isnt great since I haven't been paid the JSA yet (they say that will occur in a week or two). As my three months will be up very shortly I will have to sign off in a day or two, but I guess (and hope) that wont stop me being paid. The lady who deals with Habitual Residency said to me there is no problem with my HRC and that is on file.

Passing the HRC and your information is very reassuring as our work is very seasonal so we may need a little help to get through the dark winter months particularly for the first year. We do want to give back to Ireland in time and I am sure we will do that ten times over with the taxes we will have to pay!


We are not getting child benefit at the moment as my wife doesnt have the Stamp 4. We will apply for that as soon as she gets it. We will ask for it to be backdated as we didnt have the Stamp 4 (a necessity) when we wanted to apply a few months ago.

I totally agree the Medical Card rules are daft. I know of a few people who are ticking over with very little money and are just surviving, but if they (or we) have a bought of sickness it could bring financial disaster. The assumption that we are lying about our finances is infuriating to say the least.

Thank you for mentioning about appealing the decision. I found an interesting quotation that I emailed to the Health Exec (which they ignored) where a government minister says;

"Where income guidelines are principal benchmark used for deciding medical card eligibility, the HSE does look beyond the applicant's financial situation and has regard to other matters that it considers appropriate in assessing a person for a medical card."

http://www.kildarestreet.com/debates/?i ... 7-20.987.0

I am just curious. can a parent apply for child benefit after arrival in Ireland and does she/he have any chance to get it as it stated on SW site that every child is eligible for child benefit once he/she lives in ireland

[Brigid from Ireland]

EU law states that a child is eligible for child benefit in the country where the parent is employed or self employed or getting social welfare.

So if the child lives with mum in Ireland and dad works in the UK it is the UK who pays child benefit.

If dad works in Ireland and the child lives with mum in Poland Ireland pays the child benefit.

So if the EU citizen parent declares that they are self employed by filling out the correct paperwork with the tax office then that parent (mum or dad) can apply for chilid benefit. They need to keep records of the amount of money being made through self employment, as they may be asked for proof of it.

You apply for child benefit as soon as you have one payslip or as soon as you have sent an e-mail or letter to Revenue/the tax office saying you are self employed.

[Latintraveller]

Thanks for your reply of 14 May Bridget. I had already signed off JSA by that date and sent off the EU1 form a few days later.

Thinking that receipt of of wife's six month Stamp 4 would take a fortnight we decided to claim FIS based on my wife's hours (I am self employed). We have now found out that there is a six week delay (of course according to EU law the stamp should be given immediately) at the Justice department and it may be July until my wife gets her Stamp 4.

We were thinking of sending off the FIS form now and waiting to see if they ask for her Stamp 4 later (by that time she may have received the stamp). I am concerned though that the arguement (according to Irish (not EU) law that my wife shouldn't had been working could be used against her though.

Do you see any danger in sending off the FIS form now? Or is it best to wait in your opinion?

Thanks!

[Brigid from Ireland]

Not an expert on the immigration aspect of this. Personally I would wait until she has the stamp, as the FIS claim will be in the name of the Non-EU citizen. I would not wait if it was the EU citizen who was working.

Is child benefit in pay? If not, e-mail them and ask them to hurry this up, as the family is short of money.

Another point - you may want to look at the possibility of third level study (Eu citizen only) as you may be eligible for a higher education grant if you go to third level, and this is handy additional money just for showing up to listen to some chap talk for a few hours a week (obviously assignments and exams also, pick an easy course and these are not too much trouble). Some third level courses are only 12 hours a week, and get full means tested grant. Probably for 2014 (or maybe 2016), not 2013, but good to plan for this now. Check to see if you have to be three years in Ireland to be eligible - not sure what the rules are, but know that some have found this handy additonal money. Also once your wife gets citizenship she may find higher education interesting also, if family income is still low enough to qualify for grant. Also check back to education schemes - excellent schemes.

[Latintraveller]

The FIS situation is proving very frustrating as my wife's employers have filled out the forms already and they may become out of date due to Immigration dragging their feet. I was thinking of sending them in shortly without the Stamp 4 and they may ask for the stamp in a week or two which by then hopefully my wife will have received. If this is a high risk strategy I would shy away from it though.

The medical card application is still ongoing. The are the most badly organised department I have come across in a long time. A complaint will be going their way very shortly.

Interesting idea about 3rd level education. I don't know if I would qualify though as I already have a degree. Also I may have to pay for health insurance under EU treaty rights.

[Brigid from Ireland]

You already have a degree, so you don't qualify.

Once your wife is an EU citizen, third level education is open to her also on the same terms as any other citizen. This is one reason why getting EU citizenship for your step child is important - without citizenship the child will have very expensive third level costs.

Check the health insurance issue carefully - is it required for you (the EU citizen) or only for the non-EU spouse and child? Is it required at all for the non-EU spouse if you are an employed migrant worker and she is your family member? Get this in writing from both immigration and the hse, by asking the question via e-mail. You are entitled to know what the position is in regards to health insurance.

One point you may want to remember. All state services are delivered by people, most of whom are nice, some of whom are dearly beloved and do not approve of immigrants. Staff who are anti-immigrant will put any available barrier in your path, and will create ones if they think you lack the education to know that what they say is not true. dearly beloved managers also force staff to do this. I had one lady tell me that a disabled immigrant EU citizen child was not entitled to a range of services here in Ireland, that were in fact available by law. (She wanted to keep the services for those who deserved and needed them, basically only for Irish people in her view!!). This is totally against the law, but it can happen. It is also subtle - the immigrant is not told about the available services, and so cannot apply.

Keep a record of any medical costs, and once you get the medical card send in the original receipts for a refund.

[Latintraveller]

Thanks for your reply again.

Going back to the problem with FIS. My wife's employers have already completed their part of the form and it was dated early June. Therefore is there a time limit by when we need to send it in by? If there is; then I was thinking of completing our part of the form and dating it around 20 June and posting it at the end of the month. It would be early July before they write and ask for my wife's stamp 4 which we can send to them about a week later (by which time she will hopefully have received her passport back).

If though this could cause immigration problems or cause my wife to lose her job (say if a zealous official decided to cause problems) it is obviously not worth pursuing that course. If though that is extremely unlikely I would like to carry out the above plan of action if it is to our advantage. As always I am interested in your opinion!

[Latintraveller]

My wife and I received our Medical Cards about 3 weeks ago (at long last!) We assumed our son was on one of the cards as a minor. It turns out that he has not been issued with a card as we haven't yet claimed child benefit.

Going on to the issue of child benefit. I filled out the forms last week, but they were returned as there appears to be an archaic law that means the payment is only paid to Mothers (and they have to apply). Ironically I had asked for the money to be paid into a joint bank account. Anyhow my wife filled out the forms including a HRC form and they were posted this morning. Is my assumption correct that although my wife will probably fail the HRC that we can still have CB awarded on the basis of me being a working EU citizen?

Thanks for your help.

[Brigid from Ireland]

Yes, child benefit is payable in the case of any child living in the EU if either parent is legally employed or self employed in Ireland. You could send the child to Poland and still claim it, so long as either parent worked in Ireland. It stops if the child leaves the EU. You are an EU citizen, so your self employment is legal, so child benefit is payable. It should be backdated to when you first applied.
Regarding HRC, all your wife needs to do is send a copy of her payslip and her immigration stamp (probably stamp 4EUfam) and she is fine, as both of these documents show she is a legally employed worker.
Assuming you drew Jobseekers Allowance for even one day of payment since your recent arrival in Ireland, your wife is automatically habitually resident. Her habitual residence is that of her husband (very reasonable) and you are habitually resident if you drew JA.
Once you get the child benefit you can have the child added to the medical card.
Note that you need to sort out EU citizenship for the child before he is old enough to go to university. Either naturalisation as an Irish citizen in his own right or adoption by you as a UK citizen adopted child.