EEA to BC - NCS family application refused HELP

[TreatyRightsMan]

Hi,

My young family and I are close to despair and need your urgent advice to assess our options. We went to the NCS this morning to apply for BC (my wife, non-EEA, myself EEA national, and my little son EEA by birth) and were turned away. The staff at the NCS stated as a reason that my application (and that of my wife and my son) would be unlikely to be accepted because I did not demonstrate sufficient evidence of having exercised treaty rights during my 6 year residence term in the UK and because I have been unemployed for more than 6 months in the past . Situation is as follows:

-Myself (EEA national) and my wife non-EEA national arrived in the UK in September 2007

-My non-EEA wife applied for confirmation of her permanent residence in November 2012 (EEA4) on the basis of me exercising treaty rights during my first 5 years in the country, which was issued to her by Liverpool in February of this year

-I exercised treaty rights as a student for my first year in the UK and worked for the most part of the first 5 years thereafter, with 4 employment gaps not exceeding 3-4 months during the period between September 2007 and October 2012). In my application, In included comprehensive evidence showing comprehensive sickness insurance for my time as a student and interviews, rejection letters, job offers, etc, registration with the job centre plus, etc., P45s, P60s, etc (all the goods stuff which was accepted first time around for my wife's EEA4 application last year)

-I have been actively seeking work since June 2012 when I was was made involuntarily redundant, was registered with the job centre for a few months and provided evidence of actively seeking work through hundreds of interviews, rejection letters, registration with recruitment agencies, all in line with EEA3 guidance for the entire period to date. I read previous threads in this forum about longer spells of unemployment and how they can negatively affect your citizenship application using the EEA route. However, according to guidance in booklet and guide AN the proof exercising of treaty rights would only apply to me for the first 5 years. Hence, the fact that I was out of work / actively seeking employment / registered with the job centre for the last year of my presence in the UK (from October 2012-present) should be irrelevant. Just wondering if somebody could confirm this.

I had a very long chat with the home office staff who even agreed with me that I should have a right and asked me to submit my application direct if I feel strongly about it. However, I am not too keen on losing 1500 GBP (including my wifes and my childs fee) if they decide for some reason that I m not eligible, especially not in my current state...

I have been thinking of canceling my application and go for EEA3 instead (they are no longer free but at least the financial risk is lower...) and simply waiting until February until my wife can apply for citizenship on her own right (one year from her PR sticker date) without all the treaty rights nightmare paperwork. But I need to be absolutely certain with your help that I am not being unjustly denied the right of applying earlier.

Would highly appreciate your guidance.

[TreatyRightsMan]

Update / additional evidence: I have just spoken to somebody from the home office helpline and explained my case again. She explained that exercising treaty rights for the purpose of the naturalisation application is apparently entirely different from exercising treaty rights for EEA3/4 applications, which confused me even more.

To add to the confusion, she mentioned to me an obscure rule (apparently grounded in UK law and not EU law, she was unable to provide me with any reference) that as a EEA citizen wishing to exercise treaty rights for the purpose of the naturalisation application you are unable to claim JSA for more than a cumulative 3 months during the 5 year period. She admitted that the rules might be different / more relaxed when applying for a EEA3. I have never heard of such a restriction. I still don't understand how exercising of treaty rights can be interpreted differently for the naturalisation application vs EEA3. The home office lady's advice was to apply for EEA3 to flush out any doubts as it is more likely to be accepted (especially in light of the previous acceptance of the EEA4 for my wife). I am not too keen to wait until next year to be honest, but at the same time wary of risking 1500 GBP in case the HO comes up with some obscure rule and my application gets refused...

Appreciate your clarification and guidance.

[Coffee10]

now i'm really worried.i send my application to HO.i hold EEA3 for more than a year,but I did claimed jsa in the past as well.i never heard about these rules before I hope this is not true at all.can anyone confirm is this true or not?thanks

[Coffee10]

can anyone comment this please.jambo what do you think?

[Coffee10]

hello again can anyone comment this please,is this could be true about claiming jsa for more than 3 months could affect your BC application?what about if you allready hold PR for more than 12 months?i'm a little bit worried can anyone answer please.thank you

[Jambo]

There are no different rules for naturalisation. The call centre people are not always providing accurate information. Although if you a borderline case, you might not want another pair of eyes to examine your case and might prefer to wait 1 year after PR issue.

Your employment status after PR is irrelevant.

You can insist with NCS to take the application. They might want you to sign a statement that they have warned you it will get refused buy they can't really refuse using them if you insist. They just act as documents verifiers. Nothing more. They are not decision makers.

[TreatyRightsMan]

thank you, Jambo. I guess I could risk it but I am a patient man so will submit my EEA3 and see what happens, and my wife can apply for naturalization in her own right based on her EEA4 in February in any case.

Presumably there should not be any problem if I provide them with the same evidence for the continuous 5 year period (30 Sep 2007 - 30 Sep 2012) which I used for my wife's successful EEA4 (applied in November 2012 and issued in February 2013)? I have referred the case worker to my wife's successful EEA4 application and provided her case ID. Do you think this will make this EEA3 application process quicker? Or will they have to re-verify all the evidence again based on what I will send them now?

I am preparing the EEA3 application pack and will submit it next week. In addition to recycling the treaty rights part of my wife's EEA4 application pack, I have made a declaration in the cover note that I continue to be resident in the UK with substantial part of my estate and my family here. I have enclosed the following evidence in support of the residence requirement for Sep 2012 - present
-bank statements seamlessly covering the period from Sep 2012 to present
-recent utility bills
-MOT certificate and tax disc
-letter of school enrollment for my son
-british passport of my baby boy who was born right after my wife received her EEA4

I have also included a proof of Comprehensive Sickness Insurance the form a statement from my German insurer that was covered between 2006 (before coming to the UK) and Dec 2011 and a form E104. Strangely enough I did not provide this evidence for my wife's successful EEA4 application back in November, although I claimed to have exercised treaty rights as a masters student in the first year of 5 (Sep 2007 - Oct 2008). Has this requirement been only recently introduced or was I just lucky ?

Many thanks again.

[Jambo]

You can apply for EEA3 with the same evidence. It will not speed your application by much. The main reason for delays is backlog and not the actual handling of the application. EEA3 is normally granted in 1-2 months. You should be aware that even if PR Confirmation is granted, you will need to wait 1 year after PR date or you will need to submit the evidence again when applying for naturalisation (this is because the PR Confirmation only has issue date. It doesn't state when the PR was automatically obtained so the nationality team can't tell from it if you held PR for 1 year or not).

I guess your wife got lucky with the CSI requirement.

There is no need for all the extra evidence of your residence in the UK. A single recent utility bill would be enough to show you are still in the country. You don't need to show continuous residence since PR was obtained.

[TreatyRightsMan]

Thanks for your prompt and reassuring response jambo, much appreciated. Suppose my wife beats me to British citizenship would I be able to apply for naturalisation straight away provided I hold the eea3 at that time? I read something about the final 12 month requirement being practically dropped if you go down the spouse of bc route. .

Many thanks

[Jambo]

You are right. If you apply after your wife's ceremony, there is no need to wait.

[TreatyRightsMan]

Thanks, Jambo. I applied for the EEA3 document on 14 Oct 2013 by resubmitting the same documents I used for my wife's EEA4 back in November last year and received a confirmation from the home office almost instantly (3 days within sending it in...), so hopeful it will arrive within the next few weeks.

Quick follow up question: I understand that I would need to wait for 1 year after the issue date of my EEA3 if I want to apply without resubmitting the docs to the HO for BC. But can my wife apply for BC directly as soon as I receive my EEA3 document? Or does she have to wait until February 2014 (1 year after the date of issuance of her EEA4? ). The idea is that I would like to avoid sending all the treaty rights evidence documents to the home office for her BC application to keep it simple and minimize the risk of any wrongful interpretation with the consequence of losing the fee.

My wife and I have been in the UK and married since Sep 2007, she applied for the EEA4 in Nov 2012 and received it in Feb 2013, so she has been in the UK for more than 6 years. We are aware that she could wait until Feb 2014 and apply in her own right after holding the EEA4 for 1 year.

Thanks

[Jambo]

You obtaining a PR Confirmation now will not help your wife BC application. This is because it will confirm your status now while your wife need to show PR status a year ago. If she applies before Feb 14, she will need to submit treaty rights.

[s_anda]

Hi,

My young family and I are close to despair and need your urgent advice to assess our options. We went to the NCS this morning to apply for BC (my wife, non-EEA, myself EEA national, and my little son EEA by birth) and were turned away. The staff at the NCS stated as a reason that my application (and that of my wife and my son) would be unlikely to be accepted because I did not demonstrate sufficient evidence of having exercised treaty rights during my 6 year residence term in the UK and because I have been unemployed for more than 6 months in the past .
I had a very long chat with the home office staff who even agreed with me that I should have a right and asked me to submit my application direct if I feel strongly about it. However, I am not too keen on losing 1500 GBP (including my wifes and my childs fee) if they decide for some reason that I m not eligible, especially not in my current state...
.

and then in a later post you say

british passport of my baby boy who was born right after my wife received her EEA4

TreatyRightsMan,
From what you said in your above posts, your child already HAS British Citizenship, were you going to apply for him as well?

[TreatyRightsMan]

Sanda,

To clarify, I have two children, one 3.5 year old, one 7months. The younger one obtained BC automatically as he was born after my wife obtained her EEA4. We received a passport for him in a few days by simply presenting the EEA4 together with the birth certificate at the the passport service office in London. However, my older son was born before and hence needs to be registered as a BC (pay fee, fill in application form, etc...)

[s_anda]

Sanda,

To clarify, I have two children, one 3.5 year old, one 7months. The younger one obtained BC automatically as he was born after my wife obtained her EEA4. We received a passport for him in a few days by simply presenting the EEA4 together with the birth certificate at the the passport service office in London. However, my older son was born before and hence needs to be registered as a BC (pay fee, fill in application form, etc...)

Oh, that makes sense
Hope everyting goes well with your application.

[TreatyRightsMan]

Apologies for the rather long follow up post, but we have reached a critical junction on the road to BC and need your advice...

Just to udpate you, I received my EEA3 today. Almost exactly a month after submitting my papers, which I thought was surprisingly quick for a change. Perhaps they raised the service levels a bit after introducing the 55 pound charge?

Anyway, armed with a EEA3 (issue date Nov 2013) and EEA4 (issue date Feb 2013 in the case of my non-EEA wife), we are considering giving BC another shot.

To recap, last time our application about a month ago was turned back at the NCS with the reason that I had apparently failed to provide sufficient evidence to prove that I was exercising treaty rights for a continuous five year period. When I probed further they mentioned something very vague about my gaps of employment accumulating to more than 6 months during the 5 year period, which after thorough research on this form and also in the guidance notes I could not confirm. Tragically, this had a knock on effect on my non-EEA partner's and also my child's application. This was because my wife has held her EEA4 for under a year and will only be eligible to apply in her own right in Feb 2014.

I was certain their decision to turn me away didn't make any sense, especially since my wife had already obtained her EEA4 on the basis on me exercising treaty rights. Now that I have the EEA3 and flushed out any doubts, we are considering applying again.

I am aware that I would need to resubmit my EEA3 proof papers as I have not yet passed 1 year after issue date of my EEA3 (however I have been in the country for more than 6 years now).

I noticed on the application form AN that the home office is interested in knowing what I was doing the past 6 years. I am concerned about the final year as my record was far from rock solid when it comes to exercising treaty rights (very patchy to non existent job history...). I limited myself only to the first 5 years from 2007-2012 for my successful EEA3 application. Would that create an issue when we apply? What are the odds of getting rejected? (I am not too keen on losing my fee and that of my wife and my son at the same time...). How would I deal with the issue of not having much to show in terms of employment in the final year of my 6 year period?

The alternative would be to wait till February (1 year after her EEA4 issue date). I understand that my non-EEA wife can apply for UK citizenship in her own right and does not even need to fill in the '6 year life history' section in form AN. But I would probably still need to provide the same kind of evidence, but at least my wife can get her citizenship without many complications (in any case my EU passport gives me all rights I need in the UK but I would prefer having the right to vote as well..)

Your advice is much appreciated.

[Jambo]

You are not required to exercise treaty rights in the 6th year nor to provide evidence for that year. It's just a lazy way of the HO to ensure you apply after 6 years. The requirement is 5 continuos years of treaty rights ending at least 1 year before applying. There is no requirement of 6 years.

You can apply now (maybe using a different NCS ). Attach your 5 years (2007-2012) evidence. I would also add the PR card explaining it was issued based on the same evidence. It might "help" the caseworker to be sure the treaty rights evidence is solid.

[TreatyRightsMan]

Excellent, thanks for the advice, Jambo. I have just booked an appointment with the NCS of the neighboring council, which turned out to be not only 15 pounds cheaper but way more responsive and professional in booking my appointment.

Just to confirm, in section 2.4 of the form AN 'EEA nationals exercising treaty rights' where the HO asks me on what basis I was in the UK for the past 6 years, I will simply fill in the information for the 5 year period between 2007-2012. For the final year I will make a reference to my covering letter, where I will explain that I have automatically acquired permanent residence in September 2012 after having exercised treaty rights for a continuous 5 year period and therefore not required to provide any evidence of exercising treaty rights in the final year. Would that be clear enough? I am even thinking about printing out that section about automatically acquiring PR and enclosing it to 'help' the case worker.

Any suggestions?

[Jambo]

Excellent, thanks for the advice, Jambo. I have just booked an appointment with the NCS of the neighboring council, which turned out to be not only 15 pounds cheaper but way more responsive and professional in booking my appointment.

Just to confirm, in section 2.4 of the form AN 'EEA nationals exercising treaty rights' where the HO asks me on what basis I was in the UK for the past 6 years, I will simply fill in the information for the 5 year period between 2007-2012. For the final year I will make a reference to my covering letter, where I will explain that I have automatically acquired permanent residence in September 2012 after having exercised treaty rights for a continuous 5 year period and therefore not required to provide any evidence of exercising treaty rights in the final year. Would that be clear enough? I am even thinking about printing out that section about automatically acquiring PR and enclosing it to 'help' the case worker.

Any suggestions?

You can also just put in the "on what basis" column "Permanent Residence status obtained" and leave the last column empty.
The caseworker knows the rules about EEA nationals. Dont' worry. You don't need to educate him.

[TreatyRightsMan]

Thanks, Jambo. The reason I was thinking about including some educational material was that the first time around I was denied the right to apply due to the lack of familiarity of the NCS/home office case workers who advised them on the phone with Treaty Rights. But agree that it might come across as pretentious, and in any case with the EEA3 PR now in place, I hope the case is more solid. I will submit my application in a couple of weeks time and will keep you updated about the progress.

How long can I expect to wait in my case, the full 6 months or likely sooner (I am expecting c. 1-2 months or is that wishful thinking) ?

[jotter]

Thanks, Jambo. The reason I was thinking about including some educational material was that the first time around I was denied the right to apply due to the lack of familiarity of the NCS/home office case workers who advised them on the phone with Treaty Rights. But agree that it might come across as pretentious, and in any case with the EEA3 PR now in place, I hope the case is more solid. I will submit my application in a couple of weeks time and will keep you updated about the progress.

How long can I expect to wait in my case, the full 6 months or likely sooner (I am expecting c. 1-2 months or is that wishful thinking) ?

Based on what we are seeing in these forums, current average timelines are around 7-8 weeks from application to approval, so your 2 month suggestion is feasible. Having said that, we could see the average blow out to over 2 months in December due to the glut of applications that came in before October 28th.

[pemsrp]

Hi Treaty Right, what was the out come. Please share. I am also on pretty much similar situation. Would appreciate if you could confirm your outcome.

[TreatyRightsMan]

Still waiting...submitted application beginning of Dec and received a confirmation of receipt two weeks ago which is when the fee was taken off my credit card. Will keep you posted..

[TreatyRightsMan]

Pleased to inform you that we received the letter from the home office today notifying us of the successful outcome of my wife's and my son's citizenship application. Our invitation to the local ceremony arrived at the same time but was scheduled for beginning of may. Just called the town hall and scheduled a private ceremony for tomorrow morning.

I would like to thank everyone in this forum for their invaluable advice and support in the process of educating the home office and nationality checking service about EU treaty rights and getting this successful outcome.

Special thanks to jambo for his highly responsive and quality advice without you we would not have found the encouragement to reapply after being wrongly turned down by the ncs

[Jambo]

Nice to hear it worked out for you. Once your wife attend the ceremony, you can apply. If you have applied for PR Confirmation (EEA3), then the application would be very simple.