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When did you arrive in UK?Rolande wrote:Hello all,
I'll be delighted if someone can help. I have gone through this forum but did not see any case quite like mine.
My ex husband through whom I got my residency was an EEA national. But he got his British citizenship a year ago. After divorce, I intend to apply for retained right of residency as we were married for over 3 years. I am due to apply for permanent residence soon and he is willing to provide the documents needed.
My question is. Can I still claim retained rights of residence despite his being a British citizen now? If not which route can I take?
Rolande wrote:Thanks for your reply Noajthan.
I have been in the UK since 2008
Married EEA ex husband: July 2010
I obtained RC in June 2011 which expires in a few days. That is What I meant by residency.
What sort of transitional arrangement is it please?
Thank you.
Rolande.
But if married in June 2010 and hubby has been a qualified person since then (by exercising treaty rights) you should have acquired PR by June 2015.Persons already residing in the UK on 16 July 2012 as family members of dual EEA and British citizens, and who held a valid registration certificate or residence card confirming this right on 16 October 2012 will continue to be treated as the family member of an EEA national for as long as they continue to be the family member of that dual national
Just seen this.Rolande wrote:I forgot to add. Divorce was finalised in September 2015.
Thank you very much for your detailed explanation - much appreciated. I will try for the confirmation of historic PR as you suggested. Unfortunately I do not have any other grounds to base my application on.noajthan wrote:Just seen this.Rolande wrote:I forgot to add. Divorce was finalised in September 2015.
So you cannot apply for ROR now - you no longer have an EEA sponsor.
The divorce terminated your access to the transitional arrangement as well as the marriage.
I don't know if you can apply now for confirmation of your historical PR (as of June 2015);
ie dating back to when you were married.
I suppose you can as you did have the vital RC and you had (in all likelihood) acquired PR if hubby had been exercising treaty rights continuously or held PR status by last June (2015).
As he has already naturalised its clear he acquired PR at some point.
All you can do now is try to do that approach and shoot for confirmation of PR. After all you're risking less than £100.
Unfortunately, you don't seem to have any other status in UK. Unless perhaps if you have any children?
As your case is complex suggest you write a cogent cover letter to explain that you were covered by the McCarthy transitional arrangement up to the time when you automatically acquired PR.Rolande wrote:Thank you very much for your detailed explanation - much appreciated. I will try for the confirmation of historic PR as you suggested. Unfortunately I do not have any other grounds to base my application on.
noajthan wrote:As your case is complex suggest you write a cogent cover letter to explain that you were covered by the McCarthy transitional arrangement up to the time when you automatically acquired PR.Rolande wrote:Thank you very much for your detailed explanation - much appreciated. I will try for the confirmation of historic PR as you suggested. Unfortunately I do not have any other grounds to base my application on.
You can reference the HO guidance (linked above) or this HO guidance on relevant case law:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... w_v2_0.pdf
- see page 20+
- or research and find references on WWW.
Note once it has been acquired, PR can only be lost by an absence from UK of 2 years.
The PR card is just a confirmatory document - if you did acquire PR in 2015 then you still have that settled status.
So your subsequent divorce will not have affected your PR / settled status in UK.
It would be advisable to seek out an appropriate professional representative, suitably qualified and experienced in this area of EU migration law.
Keep scans/copies of all documents/RC, application form plus letter submitted to HO - for your reference and in case of any dispute.
Good luck.
It's not actually a visa but I can see you feel exposed now.Rolande wrote:Thank you. I posted my application without legal representation this morning as visa expires today. I don't feel positive about this, I must say.
Is it possible to withdraw application and ask for a return of documents to at least include an
appropriate cover letter with most of the point you have stated about the McCarthy transition. Do I put myself at any risk by doing as they'll probably have access to all my supporting documents by Monday.
noajthan wrote:It's not actually a visa but I can see you feel exposed now.Rolande wrote:Thank you. I posted my application without legal representation this morning as visa expires today. I don't feel positive about this, I must say.
Is it possible to withdraw application and ask for a return of documents to at least include an
appropriate cover letter with most of the point you have stated about the McCarthy transition. Do I put myself at any risk by doing as they'll probably have access to all my supporting documents by Monday.
If you did acquire PR you are sitting pretty as you are settled already (you just cannot easily prove it).
Suggest you send the supporting letter to be added to the bundle you have sent.
Cross-reference it all by name, gender, DoB, address, nationality etc.
(Did you send the RC already? Hope you kept a scan/copy).
Even if received on Monday the original application is unlikely to be assessed for weeks or months.
So the letter should catch the application and make it into your file in a few days.
I'm not sure what will happen either.
But you did have an EEA sponsor at the time (assuming he was a qualified person) and you should have acquired PR (last year); the McCarthy ta covered you at that time too.
A PR card is definitely just a confirmation of status. The point is It doesn't confer or grant such status,
So if you had PR by last year the divorce did not take it away.
Be aware, you may be refused initially. You may have to go to court on this one.
Hope for best but plan for the worst. Prepare yourself.
No it does not (or, should not), because you are covered by the McCarthy ta. That is the point of emphasising it in your supporting letter to back your application.Rolande wrote:There is some hope at least. I'll brace myself for troubles ahead. But Yes I retained copies of all documents I sent including RC document. One final clarification please - he obtained citizenship in December 2014. Is that an issue as at the time I obtained PR (July 2015) he was already a British citizen. Does his status at the time I acquire PR go against me in this situation?
Thanks
However, it may cause a problem. The literal reading of the regulation says that you are covered. However, there are two arguments against that interpretation and the Home office guidance above does not support that interpretation:noajthan wrote:No it does not (or, should not), because you are covered by the McCarthy ta. That is the point of emphasising it in your supporting letter to back your application.Rolande wrote:One final clarification please - he obtained citizenship in December 2014. Is that an issue as at the time I obtained PR (July 2015) he was already a British citizen. Does his status at the time I acquire PR go against me in this situation?
Obie wrote:By definition a transitional provision cannot apply to prospective event. It applies to a state of affair in place before new rules were put in place.
This means a British citizen who also holds the nationality of another EEA member state
cannot sponsor a family member under the regulations, except where they meet the conditions set out in regulation 9 (Surinder Singh cases).
...
Transitional arrangements were put in place for people who had already relied on a dual British or
EEA national for a right of residence before 16 July 2012.
You can find details of these transitional arrangements in schedule 3 of the Immigration (European Economic Area) (Amendment) Regulations 2012.
I do note the use of the words only if, so this part of the judgement may not help. Kuldip Singh and others lost because their wives had left Ireland and divorced them from outside Ireland.The reference in that provision to, first, ‘the host Member State’, which is defined in Article 2(3) of Directive 2004/38 only by reference to the exercise of the Union citizen’s right of free movement and residence, and, secondly, ‘initiation of the divorce … proceedings’ necessarily implies that the right of residence of the Union citizen’s spouse who is a third-country national can be retained on the basis of Article 13(2)(a) of Directive 2004/38 only if the Member State in which that national resides is the ‘host Member State’ within the meaning of Article 2(3) of Directive 2004/38 on the date of commencement of the divorce proceedings.
Just for the record, the reference to this judgement comes from Paragraph 56 of the preliminary ruling for Case C‑115/15 Secretary of State for the Home Department v NA (Pakistan). There was domestic violence in that case, which may complicate the generality of the 'opinion'. This opinion rules that in cases of domestic violence, the sponsor may have left the country even before divorce proceedings begin, and yet the right of residence be retained!Richard W wrote:The best evidence for the relevant date being the date of the commencement of divorce proceedings that I can find comes from Paragraph 61 of Kuldip Singh and Others v. Minister for Justice and Equality (reference number ECLI:EU:C476) in the European Court of Justice.
There is a misunderstanding here and misuse of moderator Obie's previous statement from a different case (different context).Richard W wrote:However, it may cause a problem. The literal reading of the regulation says that you are covered. However, there are two arguments against that interpretation and the Home office guidance above does not support that interpretation:There is thus a significant risk of your application having to go to appeal.
- There is no evidence that the regulation was intended to cover your situation. That would be very relevant to interpreting an Act of Parliament; I don't know how much that principle applies to Statutory Instruments, as they are hardly ever challenged in Parliament.
- As was written on this board two weeks ago, 5 June 2016:
Obie wrote:By definition a transitional provision cannot apply to prospective event. It applies to a state of affair in place before new rules were put in place.- The Home Office's legal guidance on the matter (cited earlier in the thread) will suggest to the case worker that you are not covered:
This means a British citizen who also holds the nationality of another EEA member state
cannot sponsor a family member under the regulations, except where they meet the conditions set out in regulation 9 (Surinder Singh cases).
...
Transitional arrangements were put in place for people who had already relied on a dual British or
EEA national for a right of residence before 16 July 2012.
You can find details of these transitional arrangements in schedule 3 of the Immigration (European Economic Area) (Amendment) Regulations 2012.
...
The transitional arrangement (ta) is doing its job; the OP is one of the people it was designed for.Re: Retained rights, divorced EEA citizens now a British citizen
Post by Obie » Sat Jun 18, 2016 4:42 pmI believe OP appears to fall within the context of the transitional provision
I discounted any ROR application based on activity now or in the future as OP has already lost her EEA sponsor (by the divorce which terminated the applicability of the ta).Transitional arrangements were put in place for people who had already relied on a dual British or EEA national for a right of residence before 16 July 2012.
You can find details of these transitional arrangements in schedule 3 of the Immigration (European Economic Area) (Amendment) Regulations 2012.
From the information we have, if the transitional arrangements do apply, then the questions of retained rights is irrelevant, for Rolande has already acquired permanent residence.Obie wrote:How relevant is the above case on this thread to the Op's case. Kindly assist me. Referendum fever is depriving my brain of its full capacity.
They were drawn up to cover people who had rights as family members on 16 July 2012 but would otherwise lose rights they should not, in the HO's interpretation, have had, for their sponsor was a British citizen as well as a national of another EEA country. The arrangements were not drawn up to cover the general case of sponsors acquiring British citizenship, for if they had there would have been no restriction to people with rights on 16 July 2012. If they cover Rolande, that is an accident.This amendment of the definition of an EEA national reflects the ECJ’s judgment in the case of C-434/09 Shirley McCarthy v Secretary of State for the Home Department. Schedule 3 to these Regulations makes transitional provisions to address the position of persons who have acted in reliance on the previous definition.
That makes eminent sense, but should not depend on a magic date (16 July 2012), which the transitional arrangements do. Becoming British should perhaps be treated like leaving the country - or ignored altogether.Obie wrote:I think when one gives a purposive and sensible reading to the regulations, it covers pepole who had right of residence before the changes took place. Its intention is to preserve those people for as long as their relationship continued.
I believe that if an event occurred after that, such as a spouse acquires citizenship, then those people benefited before should cover, otherwise a manipulative spouse will apply for citizenship for the sole purpose of undermining a non eea from securing a retained residence, and such conduct with run contrary to the spirit and letter of the directive.
@R, Kindly refrain from doing this yet again.Richard W wrote:Now, the explanatory notes to the statutory instrument introducing the transitional arrangements say:
...
They were drawn up to cover people who had rights as family members on 16 July 2012 but would otherwise lose rights they should not, in the HO's interpretation, have had, for their sponsor was a British citizen as well as a national of another EEA country. The arrangements were not drawn up to cover the general case of sponsors acquiring British citizenship, for if they had there would have been no restriction to people with rights on 16 July 2012. If they cover Rolande, that is an accident..