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Retained rights, divorced EEA citizens now a British citizen

Use this section for any queries concerning the EU Settlement Scheme, for applicants holding pre-settled and settled status.

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Rolande
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Retained rights, divorced EEA citizens now a British citizen

Post by Rolande » Fri Jun 17, 2016 5:48 pm

Hello all,

I'll be delighted if someone can help. I have gone through this forum but did not see any case quite like mine.

My ex husband through whom I got my residency was an EEA national. But he got his British citizenship a year ago. After divorce, I intend to apply for retained right of residency as we were married for over 3 years. I am due to apply for permanent residence soon and he is willing to provide the documents needed.

My question is. Can I still claim retained rights of residence despite his being a British citizen now? If not which route can I take?

noajthan
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Re: Retained rights, divorced EEA citizens now a British cit

Post by noajthan » Fri Jun 17, 2016 6:07 pm

Rolande wrote:Hello all,

I'll be delighted if someone can help. I have gone through this forum but did not see any case quite like mine.

My ex husband through whom I got my residency was an EEA national. But he got his British citizenship a year ago. After divorce, I intend to apply for retained right of residency as we were married for over 3 years. I am due to apply for permanent residence soon and he is willing to provide the documents needed.

My question is. Can I still claim retained rights of residence despite his being a British citizen now? If not which route can I take?
When did you arrive in UK?
When were you married?
When do you think you acquired (or will acquire) PR?

Were you married by 2012 and in UK by 2012 and did you have a RC (or FP) issued to you during (or before) 2012?
- or had you applied for one during 2012?
Is that what you mean by 'residency'? when was it issued?

If so a certain transitional arrangement may be invoked that could save you.
(This would need further looking into to clarify certain details based around specific dates).

Otherwise, unfortunately, its not looking good as you no longer have an EEA sponsor.
All that is gold does not glitter; Not all those who wander are lost. E&OE.

Rolande
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Re: Retained rights, divorced EEA citizens now a British cit

Post by Rolande » Fri Jun 17, 2016 6:18 pm

Thanks for your reply Noajthan.

I have been in the UK since 2008
Married EEA ex husband: July 2010
I obtained RC in June 2011 which expires in a few days. That is What I meant by residency.

What sort of transitional arrangement is it please?

Thank you.
Rolande.

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Re: Retained rights, divorced EEA citizens now a British cit

Post by Rolande » Fri Jun 17, 2016 6:27 pm

I forgot to add. Divorce was finalised in September 2015.

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Re: Retained rights, divorced EEA citizens now a British cit

Post by noajthan » Fri Jun 17, 2016 6:36 pm

Rolande wrote:Thanks for your reply Noajthan.

I have been in the UK since 2008
Married EEA ex husband: July 2010
I obtained RC in June 2011 which expires in a few days. That is What I meant by residency.

What sort of transitional arrangement is it please?

Thank you.
Rolande.

It is the McCarthy 'transitional arrangement'.
Thanks to McCarthy your hubby, now British, is no longer treated as an EEA citizen for migration purposes.

However a transitional arrangement was put in place such that married couples already in the country before the new law came into effect (in 2012) would not be penalised.
This is as long as you had a RC or FP ("residency" as you call it) by certain critical dates.

Think of it as the British sense of fair play.

If it applies to you, it means hubby can still be treated as an EEA national and be your EEA sponsor for as long as you remain married and both are in UK.

Certain conditions apply naturally.
I am not sure if you are required to maintain a valid RC as well as remain married.

You can dig into these vital questions in HO guidance here:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... s_v3_0.pdf
- see page 45+
Persons already residing in the UK on 16 July 2012 as family members of dual EEA and British citizens, and who held a valid registration certificate or residence card confirming this right on 16 October 2012 will continue to be treated as the family member of an EEA national for as long as they continue to be the family member of that dual national
But if married in June 2010 and hubby has been a qualified person since then (by exercising treaty rights) you should have acquired PR by June 2015.
That is assuming neither party has enjoyed any prolonged absences from UK since then.

It means you could file an application for confirmation of PR asap assuming you have adequate documentary supporting evidence;
(if estranged from hubby there are ways and means to get supporting evidence if any vital evidence is missing or unavailable).

So there would be no need for all that ROR nonsense if you delay any divorce proceedings.
And if you do divorce the transitional arrangement won't apply and you probably won't have any status in UK.
All that is gold does not glitter; Not all those who wander are lost. E&OE.

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Re: Retained rights, divorced EEA citizens now a British cit

Post by noajthan » Fri Jun 17, 2016 6:47 pm

Rolande wrote:I forgot to add. Divorce was finalised in September 2015.
Just seen this.

So you cannot apply for ROR now - you no longer have an EEA sponsor.
The divorce terminated your access to the transitional arrangement as well as the marriage.

I don't know if you can apply now for confirmation of your historical PR (as of June 2015);
ie dating back to when you were married.

I suppose you can as you did have the vital RC and you had (in all likelihood) acquired PR if hubby had been exercising treaty rights continuously or held PR status by last June (2015).
As he has already naturalised its clear he acquired PR at some point.

All you can do now is try to do that approach and shoot for confirmation of PR. After all you're risking less than £100.

Unfortunately, you don't seem to have any other status in UK. Unless perhaps if you have any children?
All that is gold does not glitter; Not all those who wander are lost. E&OE.

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Re: Retained rights, divorced EEA citizens now a British cit

Post by Rolande » Sat Jun 18, 2016 8:52 am

noajthan wrote:
Rolande wrote:I forgot to add. Divorce was finalised in September 2015.
Just seen this.

So you cannot apply for ROR now - you no longer have an EEA sponsor.
The divorce terminated your access to the transitional arrangement as well as the marriage.

I don't know if you can apply now for confirmation of your historical PR (as of June 2015);
ie dating back to when you were married.

I suppose you can as you did have the vital RC and you had (in all likelihood) acquired PR if hubby had been exercising treaty rights continuously or held PR status by last June (2015).
As he has already naturalised its clear he acquired PR at some point.

All you can do now is try to do that approach and shoot for confirmation of PR. After all you're risking less than £100.

Unfortunately, you don't seem to have any other status in UK. Unless perhaps if you have any children?
Thank you very much for your detailed explanation - much appreciated. I will try for the confirmation of historic PR as you suggested. Unfortunately I do not have any other grounds to base my application on.

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Re: Retained rights, divorced EEA citizens now a British cit

Post by noajthan » Sat Jun 18, 2016 2:05 pm

Rolande wrote:Thank you very much for your detailed explanation - much appreciated. I will try for the confirmation of historic PR as you suggested. Unfortunately I do not have any other grounds to base my application on.
As your case is complex suggest you write a cogent cover letter to explain that you were covered by the McCarthy transitional arrangement up to the time when you automatically acquired PR.

You can reference the HO guidance (linked above) or this HO guidance on relevant case law:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... w_v2_0.pdf
- see page 20+

- or research and find references on WWW.

Note once it has been acquired, PR can only be lost by an absence from UK of 2 years.

The PR card is just a confirmatory document - if you did acquire PR in 2015 then you still have that settled status.
So your subsequent divorce will not have affected your PR / settled status in UK.

:idea: It would be advisable to seek out an appropriate professional representative, suitably qualified and experienced in this area of EU migration law.

:!: Keep scans/copies of all documents/RC, application form plus letter submitted to HO - for your reference and in case of any dispute.

Good luck.
All that is gold does not glitter; Not all those who wander are lost. E&OE.

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Re: Retained rights, divorced EEA citizens now a British cit

Post by Rolande » Sat Jun 18, 2016 4:15 pm

noajthan wrote:
Rolande wrote:Thank you very much for your detailed explanation - much appreciated. I will try for the confirmation of historic PR as you suggested. Unfortunately I do not have any other grounds to base my application on.
As your case is complex suggest you write a cogent cover letter to explain that you were covered by the McCarthy transitional arrangement up to the time when you automatically acquired PR.

You can reference the HO guidance (linked above) or this HO guidance on relevant case law:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... w_v2_0.pdf
- see page 20+

- or research and find references on WWW.

Note once it has been acquired, PR can only be lost by an absence from UK of 2 years.

The PR card is just a confirmatory document - if you did acquire PR in 2015 then you still have that settled status.
So your subsequent divorce will not have affected your PR / settled status in UK.

:idea: It would be advisable to seek out an appropriate professional representative, suitably qualified and experienced in this area of EU migration law.

:!: Keep scans/copies of all documents/RC, application form plus letter submitted to HO - for your reference and in case of any dispute.

Good luck.

Thank you. I posted my application without legal representation this morning as visa expires today. I don't feel positive about this, I must say.

Is it possible to withdraw application and ask for a return of documents to at least include an
appropriate cover letter with most of the point you have stated about the McCarthy transition. Do I put myself at any risk by doing as they'll probably have access to all my supporting documents by Monday.

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Re: Retained rights, divorced EEA citizens now a British cit

Post by noajthan » Sat Jun 18, 2016 4:36 pm

Rolande wrote:Thank you. I posted my application without legal representation this morning as visa expires today. I don't feel positive about this, I must say.

Is it possible to withdraw application and ask for a return of documents to at least include an
appropriate cover letter with most of the point you have stated about the McCarthy transition. Do I put myself at any risk by doing as they'll probably have access to all my supporting documents by Monday.
It's not actually a visa but I can see you feel exposed now.
If you did acquire PR you are sitting pretty as you are settled already (you just cannot easily prove it).

Suggest you send the supporting letter to be added to the bundle you have sent.
Cross-reference it all by name, gender, DoB, address, nationality etc.

(Did you send the RC already? Hope you kept a scan/copy).

Even if received on Monday the original application is unlikely to be assessed for weeks or months.
So the letter should catch the application and make it into your file in a few days.

I'm not sure what will happen either.
But you did have an EEA sponsor at the time (assuming he was a qualified person) and you should have acquired PR (last year); the McCarthy ta covered you at that time too.

A PR card is definitely just a confirmation of status. The point is It doesn't confer or grant such status,
So if you had PR by last year the divorce did not take it away.

Be aware, you may be refused initially. You may have to go to court on this one.
Hope for best but plan for the worst. Prepare yourself.
All that is gold does not glitter; Not all those who wander are lost. E&OE.

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Re: Retained rights, divorced EEA citizens now a British cit

Post by Obie » Sat Jun 18, 2016 4:42 pm

I believe OP appears to fall within the context of the transitional provision.
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Re: Retained rights, divorced EEA citizens now a British cit

Post by Rolande » Sat Jun 18, 2016 4:45 pm

noajthan wrote:
Rolande wrote:Thank you. I posted my application without legal representation this morning as visa expires today. I don't feel positive about this, I must say.

Is it possible to withdraw application and ask for a return of documents to at least include an
appropriate cover letter with most of the point you have stated about the McCarthy transition. Do I put myself at any risk by doing as they'll probably have access to all my supporting documents by Monday.
It's not actually a visa but I can see you feel exposed now.
If you did acquire PR you are sitting pretty as you are settled already (you just cannot easily prove it).

Suggest you send the supporting letter to be added to the bundle you have sent.
Cross-reference it all by name, gender, DoB, address, nationality etc.

(Did you send the RC already? Hope you kept a scan/copy).

Even if received on Monday the original application is unlikely to be assessed for weeks or months.
So the letter should catch the application and make it into your file in a few days.

I'm not sure what will happen either.
But you did have an EEA sponsor at the time (assuming he was a qualified person) and you should have acquired PR (last year); the McCarthy ta covered you at that time too.

A PR card is definitely just a confirmation of status. The point is It doesn't confer or grant such status,
So if you had PR by last year the divorce did not take it away.

Be aware, you may be refused initially. You may have to go to court on this one.
Hope for best but plan for the worst. Prepare yourself.

There is some hope at least. I'll brace myself for troubles ahead. But Yes I retained copies of all documents I sent including RC document. One final clarification please - he obtained citizenship in December 2014. Is that an issue as at the time I obtained PR (July 2015) he was already a British citizen. Does his status at the time I acquire PR go against me in this situation?

Thanks

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Re: Retained rights, divorced EEA citizens now a British cit

Post by noajthan » Sat Jun 18, 2016 4:58 pm

Rolande wrote:There is some hope at least. I'll brace myself for troubles ahead. But Yes I retained copies of all documents I sent including RC document. One final clarification please - he obtained citizenship in December 2014. Is that an issue as at the time I obtained PR (July 2015) he was already a British citizen. Does his status at the time I acquire PR go against me in this situation?

Thanks
No it does not (or, should not), because you are covered by the McCarthy ta. That is the point of emphasising it in your supporting letter to back your application.

Your sponsor is to be treated as an EEA national in your case. (Due to your possession of RC from 2012 and the fact of your marriage throughout the relevant time period, etc).
All that is gold does not glitter; Not all those who wander are lost. E&OE.

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Re: Retained rights, divorced EEA citizens now a British cit

Post by Richard W » Sat Jun 18, 2016 9:57 pm

noajthan wrote:
Rolande wrote:One final clarification please - he obtained citizenship in December 2014. Is that an issue as at the time I obtained PR (July 2015) he was already a British citizen. Does his status at the time I acquire PR go against me in this situation?
No it does not (or, should not), because you are covered by the McCarthy ta. That is the point of emphasising it in your supporting letter to back your application.
However, it may cause a problem. The literal reading of the regulation says that you are covered. However, there are two arguments against that interpretation and the Home office guidance above does not support that interpretation:
  • There is no evidence that the regulation was intended to cover your situation. That would be very relevant to interpreting an Act of Parliament; I don't know how much that principle applies to Statutory Instruments, as they are hardly ever challenged in Parliament.
  • As was written on this board two weeks ago, 5 June 2016:
    Obie wrote:By definition a transitional provision cannot apply to prospective event. It applies to a state of affair in place before new rules were put in place.
  • The Home Office's legal guidance on the matter (cited earlier in the thread) will suggest to the case worker that you are not covered:
    This means a British citizen who also holds the nationality of another EEA member state
    cannot sponsor a family member under the regulations, except where they meet the conditions set out in regulation 9 (Surinder Singh cases).
    ...
    Transitional arrangements were put in place for people who had already relied on a dual British or
    EEA national for a right of residence before 16 July 2012.
    You can find details of these transitional arrangements in schedule 3 of the Immigration (European Economic Area) (Amendment) Regulations 2012.
There is thus a significant risk of your application having to go to appeal.

The question as to the applicability of the transitional arrangements might be rendered irrelevant by the Toufik Lounes case; the argument will be that as the husband moved to the UK from abroad (did he?) before he became British, he should remain an 'EEA national' under the regulations as long as he is in fact a citizen of another EEA country. I am presuming that the ex-husband is still a dual national.

However, should we be so certain that the retained right of residence route is closed? I can't find any provision that says that retained rights are only retained if applied for. The timeline as we have it is:

Arrived UK: 2008
Married: July 2010 (We're assuming husband was a permanent resident or else exercising treaty rights then and at all relevant times afterwards)
RC issued: June 2011
Divorce initiated (papers served): (date not reported yet)
Husband naturalised: December 2014
Divorce finalised (decree absolute): September 2015

My understanding is that for the retention of rights, the 'termination of marriage' may be taken from when divorce proceedings were initiated. (There is a serious risk that this is just a widespread erroneous view - see below.) If the divorce was initiated before the husband naturalised in December 2014, then rights will have been retained regardless of what the husband did thereafter.

The best evidence for the relevant date being the date of the commencement of divorce proceedings that I can find comes from Paragraph 61 of Kuldip Singh and Others v. Minister for Justice and Equality (reference number ECLI:EU:C:2015:476) in the European Court of Justice.
The reference in that provision to, first, ‘the host Member State’, which is defined in Article 2(3) of Directive 2004/38 only by reference to the exercise of the Union citizen’s right of free movement and residence, and, secondly, ‘initiation of the divorce … proceedings’ necessarily implies that the right of residence of the Union citizen’s spouse who is a third-country national can be retained on the basis of Article 13(2)(a) of Directive 2004/38 only if the Member State in which that national resides is the ‘host Member State’ within the meaning of Article 2(3) of Directive 2004/38 on the date of commencement of the divorce proceedings.
I do note the use of the words only if, so this part of the judgement may not help. Kuldip Singh and others lost because their wives had left Ireland and divorced them from outside Ireland.

I thought I'd seen a British judgement that supported this view, but I may have imagined it. The judgements my searching today turned up all assumed that the date of decree absolute was the relevant date.

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Re: Retained rights, divorced EEA citizens now a British cit

Post by Richard W » Sat Jun 18, 2016 10:49 pm

Richard W wrote:The best evidence for the relevant date being the date of the commencement of divorce proceedings that I can find comes from Paragraph 61 of Kuldip Singh and Others v. Minister for Justice and Equality (reference number ECLI:EU:C:2015:476) in the European Court of Justice.
Just for the record, the reference to this judgement comes from Paragraph 56 of the preliminary ruling for Case C‑115/15 Secretary of State for the Home Department v NA (Pakistan). There was domestic violence in that case, which may complicate the generality of the 'opinion'. This opinion rules that in cases of domestic violence, the sponsor may have left the country even before divorce proceedings begin, and yet the right of residence be retained!

The message I get is that the law in this area is uncertain.

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Re: Retained rights, divorced EEA citizens now a British cit

Post by Obie » Sat Jun 18, 2016 10:55 pm

How relevant is the above case on this thread to the Op's case. Kindly assist me. Referendum fever is depriving my brain of its full capacity.
Smooth seas do not make skilful sailors

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Re: Retained rights, divorced EEA citizens now a British cit

Post by noajthan » Sat Jun 18, 2016 11:00 pm

Richard W wrote:However, it may cause a problem. The literal reading of the regulation says that you are covered. However, there are two arguments against that interpretation and the Home office guidance above does not support that interpretation:
  • There is no evidence that the regulation was intended to cover your situation. That would be very relevant to interpreting an Act of Parliament; I don't know how much that principle applies to Statutory Instruments, as they are hardly ever challenged in Parliament.
  • As was written on this board two weeks ago, 5 June 2016:
    Obie wrote:By definition a transitional provision cannot apply to prospective event. It applies to a state of affair in place before new rules were put in place.
  • The Home Office's legal guidance on the matter (cited earlier in the thread) will suggest to the case worker that you are not covered:
    This means a British citizen who also holds the nationality of another EEA member state
    cannot sponsor a family member under the regulations, except where they meet the conditions set out in regulation 9 (Surinder Singh cases).
    ...
    Transitional arrangements were put in place for people who had already relied on a dual British or
    EEA national for a right of residence before 16 July 2012.
    You can find details of these transitional arrangements in schedule 3 of the Immigration (European Economic Area) (Amendment) Regulations 2012.
There is thus a significant risk of your application having to go to appeal.

...
There is a misunderstanding here and misuse of moderator Obie's previous statement from a different case (different context).

There is no prospective event here, all the relevant events are in the past.

So I would respect this opinion on this matter:
Re: Retained rights, divorced EEA citizens now a British citizen

Post by Obie » Sat Jun 18, 2016 4:42 pm
I believe OP appears to fall within the context of the transitional provision
The transitional arrangement (ta) is doing its job; the OP is one of the people it was designed for.
It is protecting the rights of people who would otherwise be disadvantaged by the draconian imposition of a sudden change in the law or regulations.
It is British fair play in action, if you will.

For the ta to operate, essentially all that is necessary is for:
  • OP be married to EEA national/qualified person;
    OP to have obtained RC at relevant time (all as specified in the ta);
    OP to remain married (at relevant time)
    etc.
It's very clear...
Transitional arrangements were put in place for people who had already relied on a dual British or EEA national for a right of residence before 16 July 2012.
You can find details of these transitional arrangements in schedule 3 of the Immigration (European Economic Area) (Amendment) Regulations 2012.
I discounted any ROR application based on activity now or in the future as OP has already lost her EEA sponsor (by the divorce which terminated the applicability of the ta).

There is no point trying a ROR application based on the past when PR has (as per my understanding of OP's stated facts) been acquired in the past.
PR trumps ROR.

I agree an appeal is likely (as OP has already been forewarned earlier).
This is because it is quite likely a HO caseworker will mishandle the application and either overlook or misapply the ta too.
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Re: Retained rights, divorced EEA citizens now a British cit

Post by Obie » Sat Jun 18, 2016 11:16 pm

I think when one gives a purposive and sensible reading to the regulations, it covers pepole who had right of residence before the changes took place. Its intention is to preserve those people for as long as their relationship continued.

I believe that if an event occurred after that, such as a spouse acquires citizenship, then those people benefited before should cover, otherwise a manipulative spouse will apply for citizenship for the sole purpose of undermining a non eea from securing a retained residence, and such conduct with run contrary to the spirit and letter of the directive.

I accept the transition arrangement to some degree is opaque. It creates a bit more questions than answers.
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Re: Retained rights, divorced EEA citizens now a British cit

Post by Richard W » Sun Jun 19, 2016 12:39 am

Obie wrote:How relevant is the above case on this thread to the Op's case. Kindly assist me. Referendum fever is depriving my brain of its full capacity.
From the information we have, if the transitional arrangements do apply, then the questions of retained rights is irrelevant, for Rolande has already acquired permanent residence.

Now, the explanatory notes to the statutory instrument introducing the transitional arrangements say:
This amendment of the definition of an EEA national reflects the ECJ’s judgment in the case of C-434/09 Shirley McCarthy v Secretary of State for the Home Department. Schedule 3 to these Regulations makes transitional provisions to address the position of persons who have acted in reliance on the previous definition.
They were drawn up to cover people who had rights as family members on 16 July 2012 but would otherwise lose rights they should not, in the HO's interpretation, have had, for their sponsor was a British citizen as well as a national of another EEA country. The arrangements were not drawn up to cover the general case of sponsors acquiring British citizenship, for if they had there would have been no restriction to people with rights on 16 July 2012. If they cover Rolande, that is an accident.

Now, if Rolande is not covered by the transitional arrangements, and the British interpretation of this McCarthy case stands, then she has the problem that her husband ceased to exercise treaty rights in December 2014, as surely as if he had left the country. The question then becomes, 'When did her right of residence become independent of her husband's?'. If divorce proceedings started before her husband naturalised, then she can argue that they became independent then. I dived into ECJ rulings because that is where I find the most authoritative support for the argument. Some solicitors' websites also suggest support for the view, but I am not sure how much weight to give them.

Now, if Toufik Lounes wins his case, the British interpretation of McCarthy is wrong. In that case, if Rolande's ex-husband still has his non-British EEA nationality, then he was a valid EEA sponsor for the full five years, and Rolande acquired permanent residence before the decree absolute.

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Re: Retained rights, divorced EEA citizens now a British cit

Post by Richard W » Sun Jun 19, 2016 12:44 am

Obie wrote:I think when one gives a purposive and sensible reading to the regulations, it covers pepole who had right of residence before the changes took place. Its intention is to preserve those people for as long as their relationship continued.

I believe that if an event occurred after that, such as a spouse acquires citizenship, then those people benefited before should cover, otherwise a manipulative spouse will apply for citizenship for the sole purpose of undermining a non eea from securing a retained residence, and such conduct with run contrary to the spirit and letter of the directive.
That makes eminent sense, but should not depend on a magic date (16 July 2012), which the transitional arrangements do. Becoming British should perhaps be treated like leaving the country - or ignored altogether.

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Re: Retained rights, divorced EEA citizens now a British cit

Post by noajthan » Sun Jun 19, 2016 1:05 am

Richard W wrote:Now, the explanatory notes to the statutory instrument introducing the transitional arrangements say:
...
They were drawn up to cover people who had rights as family members on 16 July 2012 but would otherwise lose rights they should not, in the HO's interpretation, have had, for their sponsor was a British citizen as well as a national of another EEA country. The arrangements were not drawn up to cover the general case of sponsors acquiring British citizenship, for if they had there would have been no restriction to people with rights on 16 July 2012. If they cover Rolande, that is an accident..
@R, Kindly refrain from doing this yet again.
This does not help the OP one jot.

McCarthy was not applied and transposed literally into EEA Regs.
The implementation diverged from the judge's remarks on the scope of the case.

It is pointless criticising transitional arrangements for having drop-dead cutoff dates - that is clearly how its done.
Do some more reading around how HO fudged it. And read the schedule itself again.

If you wish to have a debate on some question, open a topic. Do not turn every question from every OP into a debate on the whole legal universe.

This 'debate' is not helping an already worried OP. And this topic is not the place for it.
All that is gold does not glitter; Not all those who wander are lost. E&OE.

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