Post Brexit Discussion

[Amber]

To be honest, I'm sick of all this. I thought that once the vote was done we'd drop all this scaremongering and fighting and just get on with it. If this whole thing isn't enough to put you off politics...... And although I didn't vote leave, I respect anyone who did, they have a right to do as they wish. And I'm sickened by people who insinuate that anyone who voted leave are somehow either dearly beloved, too old, uneducated or just plain stupid. I find it really offensive and to be quite frank really pathetic.

[Petaltop]

I think people need to put their differences to one side. The U.K. has voted, democratically, to leave the UK. Therefore, that's what will happen. Now we need to unite as a Country and move on. Further scaremonger and sore losers will not help anyone, most certainly not the U.K.

Bridges now need to be built!

I couldn't agree more Amber.

Casa, I can't find your post where you were talking about what the UK pays to the EU. I just found this which says the UK pay £361 million a week, which means after the rebate that is £276 million a week paid to the EU.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-e ... m-35943216

[ouflak1]

I think people need to put their differences to one side. The U.K. has voted, democratically, to leave the UK. Therefore, that's what will happen. Now we need to unite as a Country and move on. Further scaremonger and sore losers will not help anyone, most certainly not the U.K.

Bridges now need to be built!

Silencing those who disapprove of this result by calling them names is hardly productive. I can live with the UK leaving the EU (no choice now I guess). I just don't see why I should lose the benefits of EU citizenship through no fault of my own. But it's more than that. It's my children I have to think about. This is a critical part of their birthright that is being taken away from them. It's insulting to be told I should just 'move on' when something so unfair is being done to someone who is depending on me, and all of us, to do what's right for them now and for their future.

[Petaltop]

To be honest, I'm sick of all this. I thought that once the vote was done we'd drop all this scaremongering and fighting and just get on with it. If this whole thing isn't enough to put you off politics...... And although I didn't vote leave, I respect anyone who did, they have a right to do as they wish. And I'm sickened by people who insinuate that anyone who voted leave are somehow either dearly beloved, too old, uneducated or just plain stupid. I find it really offensive and to be quite frank really pathetic.

+1.

One person, one vote. It was fair.

[ILR1980]

I may be misunderstanding your question, so forgive. But Scotland isn't telling the UK to remain in the EU. That matter has been settled. But Scotland just recently scuttled 'freedom' from the United Kingdom in their own independence referendum, largely because they were convinced by the powers-that-be that they would lose the benefits of EU membership if they left the United Kingdom. Now a UK referendum to remain in EU contravenes the premise of that earlier Scottish vote. Hency their call for a new referendum with the new recent reality now set in front of them. Further, they no longer have any reason to trust any promise England makes on behalf of the rest of the UK (assuming there is much left by the time it gets to that point). Any vote Scotland decides to hold now will be with a crystal clear idea of what lies ahead as far as EU membership is concerned.

So did Scotland participated in referendum at this condition that if leave side win then they will demand another independence referendum for Scotland ?

[Casa]

I think people need to put their differences to one side. The U.K. has voted, democratically, to leave the UK. Therefore, that's what will happen. Now we need to unite as a Country and move on. Further scaremonger and sore losers will not help anyone, most certainly not the U.K.

Bridges now need to be built!

I couldn't agree more Amber.

Casa, I can't find your post where you were talking about what the UK pays to the EU. I just found this which says the UK pay £361 million a week, which means after the rebate that is £276 million a week paid to the EU.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-e ... m-35943216

My post referred to £55 million a day (the rebated figure) which would work out at £385 million a week. My post + link are there somewhere, but to be honest I've lost the will to find it.

[Petaltop]

My post + link are there somewhere, but to be honest I've lost the will to find it.

That's why I gave up looking

[ouflak1]

I may be misunderstanding your question, so forgive. But Scotland isn't telling the UK to remain in the EU. That matter has been settled. But Scotland just recently scuttled 'freedom' from the United Kingdom in their own independence referendum, largely because they were convinced by the powers-that-be that they would lose the benefits of EU membership if they left the United Kingdom. Now a UK referendum to remain in EU contravenes the premise of that earlier Scottish vote. Hence their call for a new referendum with the new recent reality now set in front of them. Further, they no longer have any reason to trust any promise England makes on behalf of the rest of the UK (assuming there is much left by the time it gets to that point). Any vote Scotland decides to hold now will be with a crystal clear idea of what lies ahead as far as EU membership is concerned.

So did Scotland participated in referendum at this condition that if leave side win then they will demand another independence referendum for Scotland ?

I seriously doubt it. And if Scotland had voted to leave overall, or if a few Scottish counties here or there had voted to leave, or even if the vote had been reasonably close to remain - low 50% to high 40% - then I doubt the point of another independence referendum would come up. But it was landslide sweeping vote across Scotland to stay in the EU. This glaring fact can't be ignored by anybody. It is not a 'let's just move on' result. They have to consider this turn of events, and I think they have to act accordingly.

[Obie]

I kind of agree. The Scottish government has a responsibility to ensure that the will of its people is upheld.

More people in Scotland voted to remain , at a percentage higher than the vote leavers in England.

It seem wrong that they should be engulfed by the trickle down beloved that is engulfing parts of Northern England and Wales.


The reputation of England around the world is really bad. Scotland has to ensure they don't suffer from guilt by association.

I spoke to many vote leave people, I saw through their heart, I saw through their soul, and I did not like what I saw.

It is incumbant on any decent Brits to dissociate from this.

This mindset needs to be fought and defeated.

I must say that many of the people who voted out are suffering from buyers remorse now.

In Ireland, 17% of the population is EU citizens, in UK it is only about 4%. EU national makes up about 8% of the working population. I can't see the reasons for the Problem.

[Amber]

Obie why do you have such a need to declare everyone dearly beloved? If people disagree with you, it doesn't mean they're dearly beloved, it just means they wanted to leave the EU.

[ILR1980]

I may be misunderstanding your question, so forgive. But Scotland isn't telling the UK to remain in the EU. That matter has been settled. But Scotland just recently scuttled 'freedom' from the United Kingdom in their own independence referendum, largely because they were convinced by the powers-that-be that they would lose the benefits of EU membership if they left the United Kingdom. Now a UK referendum to remain in EU contravenes the premise of that earlier Scottish vote. Hence their call for a new referendum with the new recent reality now set in front of them. Further, they no longer have any reason to trust any promise England makes on behalf of the rest of the UK (assuming there is much left by the time it gets to that point). Any vote Scotland decides to hold now will be with a crystal clear idea of what lies ahead as far as EU membership is concerned.

So did Scotland participated in referendum at this condition that if leave side win then they will demand another independence referendum for Scotland ?

I seriously doubt it. And if Scotland had voted to leave overall, or if a few Scottish counties here or there had voted to leave, or even if the vote had been reasonably close to remain - low 50% to high 40% - then I doubt the point of another independence referendum would come up. But it was landslide sweeping vote across Scotland to stay in the EU. This glaring fact can't be ignored by anybody. It is not a 'let's just move on' result. They have to consider this turn of events, and I think they have to act accordingly.

My question was :

Did Scotland participated in brexit referendum with this condition that if leave side win in this brexit referendum then they will demand independence referendum for Scotland?

[ouflak1]

Obie why do you have such a need to declare everyone dearly beloved? If people disagree with you, it doesn't mean they're dearly beloved, it just means they wanted to leave the EU. Stop judging everyone, it's not only unfair but also offensive.

Ummm... didn't you just call a lot of us who disagree with this result 'scaremongers' and 'sore losers'? I think that name-calling on either side is non-productive. If we go down that route, we'll never work our way through this mess.

I seriously doubt it. And if Scotland had voted to leave overall, or if a few Scottish counties here or there had voted to leave, or even if the vote had been reasonably close to remain - low 50% to high 40% - then I doubt the point of another independence referendum would come up. But it was landslide sweeping vote across Scotland to stay in the EU. This glaring fact can't be ignored by anybody. It is not a 'let's just move on' result. They have to consider this turn of events, and I think they have to act accordingly.

My question was :

Did Scotland participated in brexit referendum with this condition that if leave side win in this brexit referendum then they will demand independence referendum for Scotland?

I think my response answers your question (obviously with my own opinion). Did I misunderstand your question?

[Amber]

I said that there is and has been a lot of scaremongering and yes also a lot of sore losers. Branding people dearly beloved because they disagree with you is offensive.

[noajthan]

My post referred to £55 million a day (the rebated figure) which would work out at £385 million a week. My post + link are there somewhere, but to be honest I've lost the will to find it.

Here you are:
http://www.immigrationboards.com/eu-ref ... n#p1365900

[Obie]

Obie why do you have such a need to declare everyone dearly beloved? If people disagree with you, it doesn't mean they're dearly beloved, it just means they wanted to leave the EU. Stop judging everyone, it's not only unfair but also offensive.

Please specify were I called everyone a dearly beloved.

I have expressed a view. I said most of the people who voted, did so for facial motivated reason.

The actions of these people affect the lives of many people in a fundamental manner. This is not a difference as reconcileable as someone voting for labour or conservatives.

Yes the view are respected, but I am entitle as everyone else, to debate on the motives that led the people who are bringing economic demise to many Brit, to do what they did.

It is my right to express these views

[Obie]

I believe you need to look at the dictionary definition of beloved..

Things have to be put in context and properly describe.

[Amber]

Your spiel doesn't ride with me. Calling people dearly beloved is a very serious accusation. Just because people have issues with immigration doesn't make them dearly beloved. Jumping up and down Obie, isn't going to help you, the U.K. is out, it's time to get over it. Instead of concentrating on what divides us, look at what unites us!

[ILR1980]

I think my response answers your question (obviously with my own opinion). Did I misunderstand your question?

Sorry it was me who misunderstood your post. So if Scotland go for second referendum and vote for leaving UK then would it not increase the present confusions and uncertainty and would even make things more complicated for GB(England + wales), Scotland as well as for rest of the Europe ? They are already struggling to figure out how to implement leaving demands of UK properly without hurting economy and pound/EURO

[ouflak1]

I said that there is and has been a lot of scaremongering and yes also a lot of sore losers. Branding people dearly beloved because they disagree with you is offensive.

But calling people scaremongers and sore losers silences their voices at a time when we supposedly should be all coming together work through this. Sure it may not be as offensive as being called a dearly beloved, but it is just as pernicious. I think both sides need to encourage criticism and constructive discussion, even if the other side doesn't want to hear it.

If name calling, and labeling and branding is what becomes our national discusion on how to move forward now, we won't get anywhere as a nation!

[ouflak1]

So if Scotland go for second referendum and vote for leaving UK then would it not increase the present confusions and uncertainty and would even make things more complicated for GB(England + wales), Scotland as well as for rest of the Europe ? They are already struggling to figure out how to implement leaving demands of UK properly without hurting economy and pound/EURO

Yeah this is kind of how I'm thinking as well. It's a big mess now, and Scotland doing this would be an ancillary mess to add on top of that. Not to mention North Ireland deciding to reunify with Ireland and/or Gibraltar joining Spain.

But I really don't know what other options Scotland has if they want to preserve EU membership. It doesn't seem to me realistic at all that they can wait until after the UK has exited. The clock is ticking.

[noajthan]

I seriously doubt it. And if Scotland had voted to leave overall, or if a few Scottish counties here or there had voted to leave, or even if the vote had been reasonably close to remain - low 50% to high 40% - then I doubt the point of another independence referendum would come up. But it was landslide sweeping vote across Scotland to stay in the EU. This glaring fact can't be ignored by anybody. It is not a 'let's just move on' result. They have to consider this turn of events, and I think they have to act accordingly.

This doesn't make sense.
It was a single nationwide referendum across one nation state. Not a bunch of referendums (referenda?) across a number of federal British mini-states (with strings attached).

It doesn't make sense to divvy up the country into convenient groups and start special pleading for them.
(Even though I would love that to happen as I voted to remain, and live in the soft South).

Humans are pattern-matchers, they see patterns everywhere, I saw David Cameron's gaunt, ragged face in a piece of toast this morning.

It may appear 'Scotland' (a random pattern on a map) voted to remain but apparently around a million Scotland residents still voted to leave.
Why should there be a special treatment for Scotland - or for Guernsey or Gibraltar or for Sunderland?!

And if Scotland does get special treatment how about London and the cosmopolitan south of England?
Or, for that matter, any other random delineation of part of the UK?!"

Scotland had their own referendum and the result was remain in UK. It was not 'stay in UK if UK stays in EU'.
That was then this is now and as far as I know there was no concept of linkage between the two referenda.
Without special legislation its not going to happen and who in parliament has the appetite for that(?).

[Obie]

You do have a point .

However it is in the SNP manifesto that if there was a change of circumstances from 2014, such as Scoland being taken out of the EU against their wishes, there will be an EU referendum.

So they have an obligation to ask their people if they wish to have their relationship with Europe curtailed..

[mkhan2525]

What if the UK joins the EEA like Norway, surely that will stop the breakup of the UK and put an end to the scotland referendum demand?

[ouflak1]

...(a random pattern on a map) ...

Yikes! I do think there is just a weeeeee bit more history to the varying parts of the United Kingdom than just that.

[ouflak1]

What if they UK joins the EEA like Norway, surely that will stop the breakup of the UK and put an end to the scotland referendum demand?

That would still mean freedom of movement and the freedom of the EU variety of us wretched immigrants still being allowed to come in and take all the jobs. Perhaps a special version of EEA membership though? Specially negotiated just for us?