Returning BRP

[ubiquitous]

I've just had my citizenship ceremony this weekend and now need to seriously think about returning the BRP. The problem, and it's been discussed before without a solution (I think), is that my daughter was born in the UK earlier this year while I was on Indefinite Leave to Remain (and my wife is French, not British). Therefore, to prove my daughter's eligibility for British citizenship, I need to keep some proof of my status at the time of her birth. To apply for her passport, I used my BRP. However, now that I'm required to return the BRP, I no longer have any evidence to support her claim to British citizenship.

I wrote a letter to the Home Office three months ago asking what they could suggest as a solution to this problem. I've received no reply whatsoever. Now I'm finally at the point where I have to do something. I can scan my BRP and hope that at some point in the future, this could be considered valid proof, but I am quite sure that they will not take uncertified copies of documentation, the same as they do now.

Does anyone have any advice? Has anyone else been through this process?

David

[ohara]

Make a good quality photocopy of it and get it certified. Post Office can do document certification in some branches and it only costs £8.75. I had them certify a copy of my naturalisation certificate so I'm sure they can do a BRP.

http://www.postoffice.co.uk/document-ce ... on-service

Alternatively, apply for a Nationality Status certificate for your child. This is significantly more expensive however, but it will be accepted by HMPO when applying for a British passport.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... us-form-ns

[pelican2016]

If your daughter already got the British passport and have Birth certificate why do you need to again prove her claim to British Citizenship?

Regards,
AR

[ohara]

If your daughter already got the British passport and have Birth certificate why do you need to again prove her claim to British Citizenship?

Regards,
AR

He may need proof in the future of the child's claim to British citizenship, and a passport is NOT proof.

The BRP is main/only proof he has at the moment, as it shows he was settled in the UK at the time of the child's birth.

[ubiquitous]

If your daughter already got the British passport and have Birth certificate why do you need to again prove her claim to British Citizenship?

Regards,
AR

As I understand it, because the passport itself is not proof of citizenship. I've heard of people who have gone to renew their passport and had it rejected because of technical issues decades earlier (there are a couple of stories here in the forum archives). I know that when she turns 18, she will have to resubmit all documentary evidence to apply for her first adult passport. I used the BRP for her child passport but I won't have that evidence to give her next time. Her UK birth certificate will show that her parents were Australian and French, which also doesn't prove that she is eligible for citizenship.

[ubiquitous]

Make a good quality photocopy of it and get it certified. Post Office can do document certification in some branches and it only costs £8.75. I had them certify a copy of my naturalisation certificate so I'm sure they can do a BRP.

http://www.postoffice.co.uk/document-ce ... on-service

Alternatively, apply for a Nationality Status certificate for your child. This is significantly more expensive however, but it will be accepted by HMPO when applying for a British passport.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... us-form-ns

Thanks, I knew there was a nationality status certificate but I take issue with the fact that I have to pay yet more money to REPLACE the evidence I already have with another one, just because the Home Office want it back. If they insist that I return my BRP, I think they should offer to replace it with something that serves a similar purpose. I know what should happen and what does happen are two completely different things, but I think the Home Office should at least justify why I should PAY a lot of money just to prove my daughter is British. On some level, in some database, they should already know she is. If not, it's their incompetence, not mine....

[CR001]

Make a good quality photocopy of it and get it certified. Post Office can do document certification in some branches and it only costs £8.75. I had them certify a copy of my naturalisation certificate so I'm sure they can do a BRP.

http://www.postoffice.co.uk/document-ce ... on-service

Alternatively, apply for a Nationality Status certificate for your child. This is significantly more expensive however, but it will be accepted by HMPO when applying for a British passport.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... us-form-ns

This suggestion by ohara is the best route for you them.

[ohara]

Such is life unfortunately. The Home Office certainly does not make sense most of the time.

[pelican2016]

What about applying British Nationality Status application and keeping it as a proof?

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... us-form-ns

Not sure about the fees as unable to find it in the guide or form.

Regards
AR

[CR001]

What about applying British Nationality Status application and keeping it as a proof?

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... us-form-ns

Not sure about the fees as unable to find it in the guide or form.

Regards
AR

Did you not see that this has already been suggested and link/info provided?

y ohara » Tue Jul 05, 2016 1:20 pm

Make a good quality photocopy of it and get it certified. Post Office can do document certification in some branches and it only costs £8.75. I had them certify a copy of my naturalisation certificate so I'm sure they can do a BRP.

http://www.postoffice.co.uk/document-ce ... on-service

Alternatively, apply for a Nationality Status certificate for your child. This is significantly more expensive however, but it will be accepted by HMPO when applying for a British passport.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... us-form-ns

[pelican2016]

Yeah Sorry I guess my mind was off after reading the first half of message...........

[ubiquitous]

Out of interest though, do you think I have a valid case for not returning the BRP until I've received a proper response to my letter? Can they really get away with failing to respond to my letter yet fining me for not returning the BRP? Is there no recourse at all?

I know, I know, they're a law unto themselves, but surely they have an obligation to respond? I just wish there was some accountability. It's unfair that they could just ignore the letter simply because it's difficult. I'm a British citizen now, I demand justice!

[ohara]

Out of interest though, do you think I have a valid case for not returning the BRP

Personally I do, but the Home Office most likely does not. Just as with the whole PR/DCPR thing for naturalisation, it was not fully thought through by the Home Office and it is complicating peoples lives.

It's a typical case of right hand not talking to left. They must surely know that the nationality laws WHICH THEY SET allow automatic acquisition of British citizenship by children born in the UK to non-British parents who are settled with ILR. Yet they have completely neglected to consider that the BRP is the one key piece of solid documentary proof that the parent was settled at the time of the child's birth and have decided that the BRP must be destroyed after naturalisation.

You are not the first person in this tough situation and you certainly will not be the last. As shit as it may seem, the NS is probably your best way forward.

[ubiquitous]

I called the Home Office line and spoke to someone who suggested I speak to the Indefinite Leave to Remain team on 0300 123 2241 (option 4 then option 1). After explaining my predicament, they said that a Subject access request could be applied for for just £10 and would be able to state my immigration status at the time of my daughter's birth.

I've just downloaded the 7 page form here:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... mmigration

I'm still trying to understand exactly how to communicate my requirement via the form. On page 3, Part A has a list of tickboxes for common requests, and Part B allows you to explain your request if part A doesn't contain your request, so hopefully this will be the best solution. I will still have to send my BRP back without knowing for sure that this SAR form will be sufficient information for all future needs. Hopefully this information will be useful to others in a similar situation. I don't want to say that it will definitely solve all the problems as I simply don't know yet. Anyone else want to give their opinion?

[ohara]

A subject access request is for asking them to disclose any information they have on you. It is a provision under the data protection act.

I have done an SAR to UKVI before. Your best bet is just to tick the boxes asking for everything. It doesn't cost any more or less (it's always £10) and it could be interesting for you to see what else they have on you.

You'll get a huge bundle of paperwork and hopefully there will be a page in there which confirms when you were granted ILR.

Whether or not this will be accepted as proof of your child's claim to British citizenship in the future is unclear, but it will probably help towards an NS application if you do decide to make one in the future. Remember, the SAR response will be a copy of information from UKVI computer system, and they'll continue to hold on file any data they do send you, so it's not like you'll be the only one with a copy.

[ubiquitous]

A subject access request is for asking them to disclose any information they have on you. It is a provision under the data protection act.

I have done an SAR to UKVI before. Your best bet is just to tick the boxes asking for everything. It doesn't cost any more or less (it's always £10) and it could be interesting for you to see what else they have on you.

You'll get a huge bundle of paperwork and hopefully there will be a page in there which confirms when you were granted ILR.

Whether or not this will be accepted as proof of your child's claim to British citizenship in the future is unclear

Yes, although it does say that if you tick any box in part A, you cannot also complete Part B which allows you to explain your request. It specifically says under Part B "Please be aware that this will be the ONLY information which you will be sent under this request". I suppose I could write in part B that I want everything listed in part A but also want a letter which describes the date range of my indefinite leave to remain status. I assume that would also be acceptable.

And yes, you're right, there's no guarantee that it would be accepted as proof of my child's claim to British citizenship. There is also the implication that since one MUST have held indefinite leave to remain for at least one year prior to applying for and receiving citizenship, the fact that I obtained citizenship 4 months after my daughter's birth suggests that I must indeed have had indefinite leave to remain. But that would require the civil servant to actually use their brain. It wouldn't be evidence staring up at them from a piece of paper.

[ubiquitous]

Ah, I've just read through the notes at the back of the form. It specifically says "All information disclosed under a SAR is a file copy; originals are not provided. This information, therefore, cannot be used as proof of immigration status". GRRRRR. So the guy I spent quite some time speaking to provided me with dud information. Unless indeed they can provide a proper letter advising ILR status if I specifically ask for it. Hmm. Perhaps another call back is in order. How frustrating.

[ohara]

So the guy I spent quite some time speaking to provided me with dud information. Unless indeed they can provide a proper letter advising ILR status if I specifically ask for it. Hmm. Perhaps another call back is in order. How frustrating.

There's no point calling back. You could phone them 10 times and get 10 different answers. UKVI are renowned for giving out incorrect information on the phone and they cannot be held liable for it.

Of course the information they provide are copies. As I suggested earlier, the NS certificate is almost certainly the best thing to do as it was designed for situations exactly like this. I know it's a pain, and an expense at £272, but it'll put and end to your worries.

The passport application guidance explicitly states they accept an NS certificate as proof of British citizenship.

[ubiquitous]

There's no point calling back. You could phone them 10 times and get 10 different answers. UKVI are renowned for giving out incorrect information on the phone and they cannot be held liable for it.

Of course the information they provide are copies. As I suggested earlier, the NS certificate is almost certainly the best thing to do as it was designed for situations exactly like this. I know it's a pain, and an expense at £272, but it'll put and end to your worries.

The passport application guidance explicitly states they accept an NS certificate as proof of British citizenship.

You're right, I've had the same experience, different answers every time. Well, I'm a sucker for punishment so I just called the Passport Office and explained my situation to them to see if they had any advice on what alternative documentation could be provided if the BRP was not available. They advised that I could submit the naturalisation certificate and they would be able to (somehow?!) trace my ILR status from it. So that might be the answer, at least in terms of passport applications. It doesn't necessarily cover all situations in which I would need to prove my ILR status for my daughter, but if correct, it's a welcome relief. What are your thoughts on that? Of course, as always, it relies on their advice being right, but the woman I spoke to escalated my question to a supervisor who, based on what she told me, seemed very sure that this would be sufficient. Only time will tell I suppose.

[ohara]

Did they fully understand what you were asking them?

Either ways I've given my views. What you choose to do now is entirely your choice.

[ubiquitous]

Did they fully understand what you were asking them?

Either ways I've given my views. What you choose to do now is entirely your choice.

I believe they did understand. When they said they would accept my naturalisation certificate, I reiterated that I wasn't naturalised at the time of my daughter's birth and she said yes I understand that, however, it would still be accepted given she was born only 4 months prior to the certificate date. So it sounds like, at least in my case, they would either be able to trace the ILR status, or would assume that I held ILR given the naturalisation occurred so soon after my daughter's birth. I know, it doesn't entirely make sense and is not what the Passport application guide suggests, procedurally. I suppose I can always apply for the nationality status certificate later on if I absolutely need it. No doubt it'll cost £5000 by then given Home Office fee increases though. And yes, thank you very much for your views. I appreciate that you've taken the time, and I understand that the safest option is the £272 NS certificate, but it's also ridiculously expensive and possibly unnecessary so I'll probably wait it out for now.

[pelican2016]

I am still confused with the query and the point that British passport is not proof of being citizen.

Also just checked the applying for Adult passport and actually if the child is already having British passport then it is just renewal rather than new application as per below link. It do not ask for the proof og British citizenship.

https://www.gov.uk/apply-first-adult-pa ... g-it-takes

Do we really need to prove the citizenship status every time we renew passport?

[ohara]

A passport is a travel document, not proof of citizenship. Indeed, there have been quite a few cases recently (including one on this forum) of people having British passports revoked as they have been issued incorrectly.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... ants-error

[ubiquitous]

For the first passport or first adult passport, you do need to provide proof of one parent's immigration status at the time of birth.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... a-passport

See the table of supporting documents, table A.