SS route France Brit/Chinese Family Permit Success stories?

[HereBeDragons]

Apologies for the catch-all title.

Me:Brit, wife:Chinese

History - Met 2011. I moved to China early 2013. She moved to Britain August 2013 on a student visa. April 2015 applied for marriage license. August 2015 married (both families attended, etc.). January 2016 wife's student visa expired so she left for China. Applied for France Schengen visa (granted). Reunited in Germany late January (I would have gone with her but was busy packing up our belongings). Now the important bit.

Moved to France early February (one month rented temporary accommodation). I registered as self-employed early March. Moved to an apartment with 6 month tenancy agreement early March. Both applied for residence cards late March/early April. I earned/invoiced/paid in cheques, we bought food, a hoover, in short, we lived here.

Brexit.

Waited. Residence cards were finally in last week, so we went to collect them and immediately made an appointment for a family permit application in Paris.

Residence cards have been made valid for only ONE year (grrr), and more importantly, have been dated from 24th June 2016 (Brexit shenanigans). The normal French procedure is to date the card from the original application date, so should have been dated from late March/mid April. SOLVIT application - they agreed they should have been 5 year cards and have sent a complaint to the prefecture in France to resolve it. No idea how long the prefecture will take to deal with it, I think they have 10 weeks so will probably act on it after 9 1/2 (vive la France!).

Anyway, the appointment was made for Paris so we went ahead and did it anyway. We've applied for a family permit to ease our way back to Britain and save potential hassle at the border. Documents included;

The obvious, marriage certificate, passports/copies, etc.
Receipt for residence card application
Residence card copies (despite them only being valid for one year)
Prefecture appointment letters (they have the application date on them)
Private healthcare for wife, state healthcare (through self-employment) for me. (We are in the process of adding her to my state healthcare, but couldn't do this until we had the residence card!)
My business registration / pension registration details
Income tax statements from March to present date, copies of taxes paid from earnings
Print-out of the internet account showing current self-employment status/details
Bank statements from March to present date (business/personal can be used with the same account in France, so this is payment from customers and our bills/shopping etc. going out)
Rental contract copy for our 6 month apartment rental
Receipt for apartment rental (I paid the 6 months up-front back in March)
Rental insurance for the apartment (mandatory in France)
Invoice from first month temp-rental apartment
Invoices from relocation services for setting up bank accounts, self-employment, prefecture visits, etc.
Contract for seasonal berth for our little yacht (plus registration, to prove it's ours)
Copies of invoices from French language school for wife, plus certificate of proficiency (I already speak half-decent French)
Mobile 'phone invoices

It's a whole bunch of stuff with our names/addresses on it and evidence we're here, living a 'normal' life in France.

Now.... At the time, I didn't realise they would/might need evidence of our relationship, so didn't include anything other than our marriage certificate. Bit worried this might now cause an issue. My argument here would be, we got our marriage license in Britain, and to do this, you have an interview at the register office where they check for sham marriages. If they're suspicious, they refer to home office for further checks. Ours was fine, granted immediately. If British officials wanted to prevent our marriage, or didn't believe it's 'real', then they had the chance to do that in April 2015! We have UK rental contracts from 2013/14/15 as well but I didn't include them (would have done if I'd known!).

The other thing I'm concerned about is if 5 and a bit months is long enough for the Centre of Life test. It's all anecdotal with no real criteria to fulfil.

So, does anybody have any recent success stories to tell?

Finally, the 'creating or strengthening' of family life - well, we should have fulfilled that one because my wife is about 8 week's pregnant with our first child. Yikes. (Pierre for a boy, Angélique for a girl, I guess)

We were desperately hoping to come back to Britain for her first scans, etc. Nothing at all wrong with healthcare in France, but our French, although passable, isn't up to technicalities of healthcare and babies. Also everything is SO SLOW when trying to arrange social security numbers, etc. 2-3 months for an acknowledgement is not unusual here, we can't wait that long.

Desperately looking for help or advice on where I might have screwed up and if the family permit application fails, what our next move would be to get back to Britain ASAP.

My backup plan is to pack up, go to Calais with a huge dossier of self-employment and 'proof of centre of life' stuff, and argue for a 6 month stamp. If that fails....???

Our long term plans are actually to maybe move back to France, or at least spend a lot of time here. We like it. I own some rental properties in the UK but have had them up for sale for a while now, I wouldn't have thought that would affect anything we're doing here.

[noajthan]

You probably need more than marriage certificate.
Not sure if the hoover helps.
Tenancy agreement is bit short (6 months).

This may be a bit of an obvious reason that France was temporary:

We were desperately hoping to come back to Britain for her first scans, etc.

Time in France may or may not be adequate. Child born in France, in nursery, going to l'ecole (etc) would strengthen your case.

You can get into head of caseworker (or IO scrutinising your docs at border) here:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... dacted.pdf

Note: A RC is not a 'visa' regardless of 1 year or 5 year 'expiry' date.
If you do make it back and then stay too long in UK (over 6 months except in exceptional cases) your wife may lose continuity of residency in France.

[Casa]

One word of caution. It's not advisable to quote the 'centre of life' rules to the IO on entry into the UK. The Home Office have been known to refuse applications based on Surinder Singh due to the applicant having the prior intention to 'circumvent the Immigration Rules'.

[HereBeDragons]

Thank you chaps.

We're actually thinking of moving/renting another apartment in France, longer term.

I put on the cover letter that we wanted to come back to visit family and collect our remaining belongings, which is basically true. We haven't fully decided where we will be for the birth, it might end up being in France after all (we've both got access to state healthcare). I was probably overdoing it when I said we're 'desperate' to come back, I really meant 'we would much prefer to', but only based on the language barrier and technicalities, etc.

So, in the lap of the Gods then?

Is there a recommended waiting period before applying again for a Family Permit? If it's refused, can we almost directly go round again with a new application that includes a bigger dossier? Next time, I'd include our rental contracts for 2014/15, some more stuff about our relationship, and probably a bit more from our time living in France as well. Big dossier = more proof = harder to refuse?

Any anecdotal evidence of any Brits being successful entering with an A10 residence card at Calais? Again, would assume big dossier, etc.

Many thanks.

[HereBeDragons]

You can get into head of caseworker (or IO scrutinising your docs at border) here:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... dacted.pdf

Yes, I've read through this a few times before, thanks.

My understanding of it is that moving your centre of life is not a quantifiable thing, and is therefore left to an individual caseworker to decide. Hence the figures coming out a while ago that some caseworkers were approving less than 50% and some approving 90%.

I guess our only option is to assume we're settling here, and come back to Britain if we can eventually get a FP?

Is a refusal worth an appeal AND re-apply?

[noajthan]

You can get into head of caseworker (or IO scrutinising your docs at border) here:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... dacted.pdf

Yes, I've read through this a few times before, thanks.

My understanding of it is that moving your centre of life is not a quantifiable thing, and is therefore left to an individual caseworker to decide. Hence the figures coming out a while ago that some caseworkers were approving less than 50% and some approving 90%.

I guess our only option is to assume we're settling here, and come back to Britain if we can eventually get a FP?

Is a refusal worth an appeal AND re-apply?

Its probably quicker to reapply.
You can apply as often as you like. Some people take 2 or more attempts to get a FP.

Plenty (or at least many) examples of people getting stamped in at 'overland' border - just search in forum.

[ohara]

What is a "marriage license" ?

I've never heard of that and it sounds like an American thing

[Casa]

What is a "marriage license" ?

I've never heard of that and it sounds like an American thing

It's actually very 'British'. A Common Licence replaces the need for banns if having a church wedding. Or a Special Licence if the couple don't have a connection with the church in which they want to marry, for example they live abroad or outside of the area. There are other circumstances, but that's the gist of it.

[HereBeDragons]

What is a "marriage license" ?

I've never heard of that and it sounds like an American thing

It's actually very 'British' A Common Licence replaces the need for banns if having a church wedding. Or a Special Licence if the couple don't have a connection with the church in which they want to marry, for example they live abroad or outside of the area. There are other circumstances, but that's the gist of it.

Yes, basically this. If you want to marry in a church it's normally done under banns, but you can't do banns if one of you is non-EU. Rules changed early 2015.

To get a marriage license, you contact the local register office, make an appointment, pay the fee, etc.

We were told to report to the register office to fill in the paperwork, etc. What they didn't tell us was they also conduct an interview, which was a bit of a surprise! So after filling in the forms, the lady asked me to leave whilst she talked to wifey alone. She said ten minutes. So 45 minutes later, I was still in reception and getting a bit worried.... Turns out they were chatting! I had my turn, questions were about things like when and where we met, birthdays, brothers and sisters, had we met each other's families, etc.

The lady said her report was included in the application, but the HO ultimately decided if we would be investigated more thoroughly (with a nod and a wink, she said 'you won't be'). Takes something like 30 days with no investigation, or 60?90? days if the HO decide to dig deeper. We were indeed fine, approved within a couple of weeks. The lady told us candidly that she'd interviewed a couple not long before who couldn't even speak the same language, and also that some applications were 100% sham marriages but were still approved. Bit sad really, all that effort to tighten the rules only to ignore her advice.

So, we married in my local church where I grew up. Although we didn't live in the parish (we lived very nearby, but not quite), there's a rule that says if you have ties to the church you can request to be married there. Well, I cleaned the brass as a cub scout, and sung hymns at Christmas when I was at school, so I was a shoo-in.

So, my argument about us potentially having a rejection due to 'marriage of convenience' would be slightly ridiculous. We've already been investigated/interviewed for that.

In any case, going through all this nonsense just to live with my wife is far from 'convenient'! If anything, I'd call anything to do with genuine immigration entirely the opposite, a marriage of inconvenience.

[HereBeDragons]

One word of caution. It's not advisable to quote the 'centre of life' rules to the IO on entry into the UK. The Home Office have been known to refuse applications based on Surinder Singh due to the applicant having the prior intention to 'circumvent the Immigration Rules'.

Gotcha on this, act dumb (shouldn't be toooo difficult).

So the line is, we live and work in France. We want to visit family in the UK. Here's our marriage certificate and a stack of evidence that we live in France (treaty rights? Yes, I guess we are exercising them, well spotted). Three bags full officer. Thank you officer.

[FP007]

Hi,

We are following same foot steps however we applied Family Permit on Stamp 4. Our main reason is that my company in ireland (UK based) are making staff redundant and they offer me to work either in Uk, however i have got other Job offer in UK as well as well as my spouse got better offer too. We stayed over year in Eire, any thoughts

[asp]

One word of caution. It's not advisable to quote the 'centre of life' rules to the IO on entry into the UK. The Home Office have been known to refuse applications based on Surinder Singh due to the applicant having the prior intention to 'circumvent the Immigration Rules'.

Gotcha on this, act dumb (shouldn't be toooo difficult).

So the line is, we live and work in France. We want to visit family in the UK. Here's our marriage certificate and a stack of evidence that we live in France (treaty rights? Yes, I guess we are exercising them, well spotted). Three bags full officer. Thank you officer.

It may not be palatable but IOs hate a demanding smart arse, particularly anyone they think is trying to circumvent the Rules. While in the control zone the IO owns the arse of a non-Brit, so polite and helpful all the way unless your wife is ready for a dose of slow acting waitabout pills...

[HereBeDragons]

So here's an interesting one. A bit (OK, a lot) of reading recently, and it turns out there's a very, very little niblet of information that says you can actually exercise your treaty rights from within the UK, if you have a business/self employed with a large market in Europe. On the basis that you are exercising treaty rights by operating in that country.

Funny thing is, I do actually have a business that operates in Europe (and UK, but 70% mainland Europe).

There's no way I'll be attempting to use this as it sounds like a nightmare to put in to practice, but it would be an interesting route of appeal.

I'm fairly sure we've done enough, or very nearly enough, based on reading some other stories here and there.

If refused, we'll give the family permit another try with more documents, but otherwise will cross the border by ferry/Eurostar and fight for a residence card from within the uk instead.

I'm fairly confident that an application from within the uk, even without a family permit, would be successful.

One question though, if a RC is refused, do you get right of appeal?

[noajthan]

So here's an interesting one. A bit (OK, a lot) of reading recently, and it turns out there's a very, very little niblet of information that says you can actually exercise your treaty rights from within the UK, if you have a business/self employed with a large market in Europe. On the basis that you are exercising treaty rights by operating in that country.

...

I'm fairly confident that an application from within the uk, even without a family permit, would be successful.

One question though, if a RC is refused, do you get right of appeal?

Do you mean frontier working?
Reference to information?

Appeal rights depend on reason for refusal. And appeals can take for evvveeeeerrrrrrr.

For example,

Right of appeal
A non-EEA national does not have a right of appeal if they do not produce evidence to show they are the family member of an EEA national

You can dig into such vital questions by getting into the mind of caseworker in HO guidance, here;
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... s_v3_0.pdf

[HereBeDragons]

So here's an interesting one. A bit (OK, a lot) of reading recently, and it turns out there's a very, very little niblet of information that says you can actually exercise your treaty rights from within the UK, if you have a business/self employed with a large market in Europe. On the basis that you are exercising treaty rights by operating in that country.

...

I'm fairly confident that an application from within the uk, even without a family permit, would be successful.

One question though, if a RC is refused, do you get right of appeal?

Do you mean frontier working?
Reference to information?

Appeal rights depend on reason for refusal. And appeals can take for evvveeeeerrrrrrr.

For example,

Right of appeal
A non-EEA national does not have a right of appeal if they do not produce evidence to show they are the family member of an EEA national

You can dig into such vital questions by getting into the mind of caseworker in HO guidance, here;
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... s_v3_0.pdf

Colin Yao touches on it briefly in his e-book. I didn't bother reading too much more as it sounds very specialist (despite knowing I would almost definitely qualify). Good for backup though. Didn't realise I've probably been exercising my treaty rights for about ten years now, completely by accident.

Well we're definitely family members, so would pass on that. UK marriage license, UK marriage, lived together before and since, and can prove it all.

Ta for linky.

[HereBeDragons]

Looking through paperwork here, I've just found a letter from my UK local council confirming my status as being registered to vote abroad. Help for 'centre of life' proof?

[Hamza2013]

Definitely,

How ever I would suggest keep simple!

[HereBeDragons]

Definitely,

How ever I would suggest keep simple!

True! But it's in English already so no translation needed.

If refused we're trying to decide whether to go direct by overland route and fight at the border, or just re-apply. In terms of travel, there isn't much in it. We're right down south, so a trip to Paris is the best part of a day (and back). Could basically get to Dover in the same time!

[Hamza2013]

We are thinking same way, if not FP then travel t Uk but we might not come across borders between Eire and Uk hence need to submit 5 yr residence as soon as we get there

[HereBeDragons]

What's border control like between Ireland and Britain? I've heard of people travelling between the two with no checks at all, but that seems unlikely?

Is it really that easy? Flight or ferry any different?

[noajthan]

What's border control like between Ireland and Britain? I've heard of people travelling between the two with no checks at all, but that seems unlikely?

Is it really that easy? Flight or ferry any different?

From Irish side:

A third country national, for example, may be refused permission to enter Ireland if it is their intention to travel onwards to the UK and they would not qualify for admission to the UK under the Aliens (Amendment) Order 1975.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/mo ... he_uk.html

UK side:

...certain persons subject to the Immigration (Control of Entry through the Republic of Ireland) Order 1972 (as amended) who enter the United Kingdom through the Republic of Ireland do require leave to enter. This includes:

• those who merely passed through the Republic of Ireland;
  persons requiring visas;
  persons who entered the Republic of Ireland unlawfully;

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... l-area-cta

[noajthan]

@Hamza2013 , suggest continue with your questions in your own topic so this topic does not stray off-topic.

[Hamza2013]

Thanks Noajthan,

Just created another topic, Thanks

[nceeterminator]

I'm a chinese and have lived in France for long enough to know their bureaucracy, so I've decided to moved to the UK just to find out that HO is no less of their counterparty in France.

Anyway, the bottom line is that if your wife can prove that she's a family member of you, a EEA national, at the UK border, the border control should allow, by law, her to enter, even if is she doesn't have a FP. However, a FP would much better and "civil" way to enter the UK for your case.

For the FP, it's important to show that you're together for a quite while (2yr is a benchmark). Anything in line of approving such relation would be helpful (photo, email, chat history). However, it doesn't seem to be very difficult to get as I'm waiting for my 3rd FP to come through, so you should probably be fine.

[HereBeDragons]

I'm a chinese and have lived in France for long enough to know their bureaucracy, so I've decided to moved to the UK just to find out that HO is no less of their counterparty in France.

Anyway, the bottom line is that if your wife can prove that she's a family member of you, a EEA national, at the UK border, the border control should allow, by law, her to enter, even if is she doesn't have a FP. However, a FP would much better and "civil" way to enter the UK for your case.

For the FP, it's important to show that you're together for a quite while (2yr is a benchmark). Anything in line of approving such relation would be helpful (photo, email, chat history). However, it doesn't seem to be very difficult to get as I'm waiting for my 3rd FP to come through, so you should probably be fine.

Thanks for your input, appreciated.

Do you mind me asking what nationality your spouse is?