Surinder Singh Suggestions Needed...Thanks.

[VioletMarie]

I am a dual British Citizen (and single mother) in America. My children are only American and that is where we are all living now. I have to do Surinder Singh before it is too late to take them to UK with me. (I already know that I need to go to a different EU country for 3 months.) However, I STILLL NEED HELP & Advice: **MY OLDEST TURNS 21 IN FEBRUARY 2017***** So, I do not have much time left.

We unfortunately have a dog that would cost at least 2500 USD to fly manifest cargo to Ireland for 3 months before entering UK for Surinder Singh. Other countries such as Germany would not require such an expense for a dog and would allow the dog in checked baggage with Lufthansa Airlines for about 600 USD....---"The point with saying those expenses"is that I would still need to work and save money in America to afford all that still. Sigh.

-- **So I wondered about if it would count to do free room and board*WWOOF Farming or picking)**?(I don't even know if those places have family living for me and my three children and dog.).............Would room & board for part time work count for qualifying for the Surinder Singh rules instead of actually paying rent---even though I would be working?? Sigh.....HELP

--**The other question I had is if it would be a possibility for my oldest son to qualify for Surinder Singh if he is over 21* ??
-*How would I prove that he is dependent on me*? Would that be feasible? *What would be-my chances with that-based on "previous cases & past filings*?

I would really appreciate any help or guidance in the right direction. I don't have much time left.
I love and only want to live in the UK.!I don't want to be stuck here in America any more. Thanks.

Suggestions are welcome!

[noajthan]

3 months is probably not long enough to shift your centre of life.

Working for room and board will be unlikely to be counted as genuine and effective work.
UK plays hard ball and applies stringent checks over and above EU law.

Dependents over 21 need to show financial dependency on sponsor.

Even if you make it back to UK be aware that, due to Brexit, dependents are unlikely to acquire PR in the normal way; there simply won't be time.

You could still fly dog to Germany then travel overland to pick him up.

As a side note I was a WWOOF volunteer 'back in the day'.

[VioletMarie]

To "noajthan" & others who can give
wise & accurate advice/suggestions....

-*-Another thing I heard about (correct me if I heard wrong please) is that my Non-EU children do not have to be with me while I am doing Surinder Singh in another EU country as long as I can prove they are financially dependent on me during and before that time? * PLEASE LET ME KNOW IF THAT IS TRUE * !!
It would be easier if they were not with me for me to find work and a place to live (without the dog) to accomplish the task at hand...**

How would I prove that he is dependent on me-over 21 *"EXACTLY"* to qualify for Surinder Singh? He does live with me and his siblings, but he works part time. The money he earns goes toward our family expenses.-- I pay the rent /utilities/food /bills which are in my name. *Should I "simply" prove I was the one who paid these expenses?* And what would be my chances with that based on "previous cases & past filings" so I know my son can make it without having to go back before-hand?

Some things I left out earlier: Besides being a dual British Citizen and single mother in America. I have permission from the court there to take my children to UK and Ireland even though I have full physical but not sole custody from my divorce from many years ago....So, I believe that part is taken care of.

[asp]

Does the US court permission allow you to remove the children to UK/Ireland permanently or only for visits? If the latter you could find yourself caught up in Hague Convention proceedings with your ex for child abduction.

[noajthan]

To "noajthan" & others who can give
wise & accurate advice/suggestions....

-*-Another thing I heard about (correct me if I heard wrong please) is that my Non-EU children do not have to be with me while I am doing Surinder Singh in another EU country as long as I can prove they are financially dependent on me during and before that time? * PLEASE LET ME KNOW IF THAT IS TRUE * !!
It would be easier if they were not with me for me to find work and a place to live (without the dog) to accomplish the task at hand...**

How would I prove that he is dependent on me-over 21 *"EXACTLY"* to qualify for Surinder Singh? He does live with me and his siblings, but he works part time. The money he earns goes toward our family expenses.-- I pay the rent /utilities/food /bills which are in my name. *Should I "simply" prove I was the one who paid these expenses?* And what would be my chances with that based on "previous cases & past filings" so I know my son can make it without having to go back before-hand?

Some things I left out earlier: Besides being a dual British Citizen and single mother in America. I have permission from the court there to take my children to UK and Ireland even though I have full physical but not sole custody from my divorce from many years ago....So, I believe that part is taken care of.

You have been misinformed.
Family members need to be with you on your SS adventure as one of the the points of SS is to engender and strengthen family life and family cohesion.
Taking dog with you also helps show you have truly moved your centre of life.

You can dig into some of these vital questions and see how caseworker will assess your case here:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... s_v3_0.pdf
- for example, wrt dependency: see page 17+
A physical papertrail of money transfers and bank statements would help.

You will have to generate a rock-solid (if not unimpeachable) papertrail from all these activities in order to support your case.
You will probably also have to show you have parental responsibility for minors.
And whatever you do, minors will not now have time to acquire the holy grail of PR in UK (or even Eire) in the normal way.

If nothing else, dealing with UK gov on EU migration lets you know you are 'alive' and living on the edge.

PS If you are a BC why are the children not British anyway? If they are you can save yourself all this palaver.

[noajthan]

Get up to speed on free movement here:
http://ec.europa.eu/justice/citizen/doc ... 013_en.pdf

[VioletMarie]

Thanks, noajthan....To answer your question, I am British by descent and I had to apply for my right to citizenship. I now have a British passport. Consequently, I can *not pass on citizenship to my children.
There has been another way to get my children in (ILE?) as long as they are under eighteen. Maybe my oldest son could could get a work permit or student visa for ten years and then apply to naturalize? If that is so, would it be easier since I am British citizen? Thanks. I would like all my children with me in the UK.!

[VioletMarie]

BTW....The US court permission has allowed me to remove the children to UK/Ireland permanently.

[noajthan]

Thanks, noajthan....To answer your question, I am British by descent and I had to apply for my right to citizenship. I now have a British passport. Consequently, I can *not pass on citizenship to my children.
There has been another way to get my children in (ILE?) as long as they are under eighteen. Maybe my oldest son could could get a work permit or student visa for ten years and then apply to naturalize? If that is so, would it be easier since I am British citizen? Thanks. I would like all my children with me in the UK.!

As a back up plan, or alternative to SS, you could look at the UK domestic, section 3(2) or 3(5), routes.

Particularly if you have already lived in UK for 3 years - s.3(2) of BNA.
Or if you plan to live in UK for 3 years with any child who is now under 14/15 years old - s. 3(5) of BNA

Ref https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... r_2015.pdf

Over 18 year old is on his own if on a UK domestic immigration route:
Tier 2 visa - work
Tier 4 visa - student
or family/spousal visa - yikes

EU route (including SS) considers those under 21 as minors (no evidence of dependency required) and over 21s can remain sponsored as family members if dependency is proven.

[VioletMarie]

Noajthan----thanks again--

I have not lived in the UK for three years previously unfortunately.
So, how about the alternative (below). ....

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/immigration ... ly-members

I was looking at this section: Parents, grandparents and other dependent relatives
of persons present and settled in the United Kingdom Requirements for "indefinite leave to enter"....(ILE).

So, let me know what you think of the (above) back-up plan (please).
Also, ....
Why wouldn't it be easier for my almost 21 year old son to get a work permit
in UK if I am British by Descent and his grandmother was born in the UK.? ?

[vinny]

So, how about the alternative (below). ....

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/immigration ... ly-members

I was looking at this section: Parents, grandparents and other dependent relatives
of persons present and settled in the United Kingdom Requirements for "indefinite leave to enter"....(ILE).

So, let me know what you think of the (above) back-up plan (please).

Unfortunately, Part 8 is no longer possible, unless the transitional provisions apply. Over 18 year old son will be subject to the more difficult Appendix FM instead.

Also, ....
Why wouldn't it be easier for my almost 21 year old son to get a work permit
in UK if I am British by Descent and his grandmother was born in the UK.? ?

Could try.

Over 18 year old is on his own if on a UK domestic immigration route:
Tier 2 visa - work

[olgachilds]

You have been misinformed.
Family members need to be with you on your SS adventure as one of the the points of SS is to engender and strengthen family life and family cohesion.
Taking dog with you also helps show you have truly moved your centre of life.
.

Sorry mate, I advised her -- she has written to me -- and I have never, in all my legal practice, misinformed anyone and am not aware that such claims have ever been made.
I told her that the 21-year old does not need to go with her to anotehr EU country, and it's a fact. There is no expectation that one's centre of life includes having their 21+ year old children glued to them, financially dependent or not.
17-year old as well, especially in British psyche, expectation is they may be living on their own and finishing school abroad.
This does not materially affect her center of life and/or cohesion.
Conversation was not about the center of life actually.
Fact remains, only the spouse HAS TO, and younger children are expected to, move with her.
The older child isn't.
For avoidance of doubt, I have also advised her that it is a silly idea, that her younger children possibly qualify for ILE subject to sole responsibility provision, which sounds like she may meet (although there is a lot of uncertainty, as she was not putting her custody situation in realistic US legal terms) and her oldest one, by the sound of it, will probably be fine in the US anyhow.
I also asked the same question that you did -- in fact this was my first question -- to be told dates and places of birth of all family members to ascertain whether there may be a claim to BC for children, but the lady refuses to share that information.
SS is a silly idea in this context and without funds.
When you tell people "Apply for ILE" and they say "it's expensive, I will rather do SS (with two children and pets, from the US), that simply means they are not up for it.
Immigration has to be rational. There is no rationality here IMHO.
One thing is to look for perhaps an existing right that has been overlooked, or take advantage of a relatively easily achievable benefit. The other is called "madness".

[noajthan]

You may or may not have been quoted out of context or misunderstood. I could not possibly say.

For SS to fly its clear all 'dependents' (even those over 21) need to follow their sponsor. OP (or her dependents) cannot hope to achieve SS 'by proxy'. Assuming they all want to stay together and live together as OP has stated.
It's also clear that SS in current geopolitical climate will most likely not result in PR for dependents.

As I have intimated OP could possibly also make a section 3(2) or 3(5) play under UK route.
Her future, her choice.

[VioletMarie]

Sorry about olgachild butting her nose where it does not belong on here! LOL. She comes across "very arrogant" and has a "bad attitude" to many other people as well, (you will notice). While it is true that I initially asked her advice (even though I did not know her), **I ended up blocking her from my Facebook page**, because olgachild was continually rude to me.- Even on her last post on here she calls me "the lady". She also took everything I said the wrong way. (I never said or meant that ILE is more expensive than SS. And I never refused to give dates and places of birth of all family.) I was only asking questions and advice (*before rationally moving or making any decisions at all). She was constantly degrading me as a projection of her own inadequacy and inferiority complex...BTW she is not even British or American. She is a Russian & lives in France. She even questioned how and why I needed to apply for my right to British citizenship (by descent). She thought that I would have it automatically even though I was not born in the UK. She clearly did not know the British laws on that matter and one other matter as well. (I wish I could block her on this website as well as my Facebook page. *She has become someone who is a troll and harassing.* (I do not recommend anyone to deal with her legally or otherwise.) ----Thanks for your generous comments, Noajthan, as I value your opinion and your information. Noafthan, you are very knowledgeable and helpful! Many thanks to you and good luck/blessings in the future. VioletMarie. I will be asking you another question tomorrow though, because of your respect and vast knowledge.... Thanks.

[noajthan]

I will leave you ladies to settle your differences elsewhere.

Meanwhile, the collective hive mind of the forum is always on call, poised, primed and at your disposal.

[Wanderer]

Sorry about olgachild butting her nose where it does not belong on here! LOL. She comes across "very arrogant" and has a "bad attitude" to many other people as well, (you will notice). While it is true that I initially asked her advice (even though I did not know her), **I ended up blocking her from my Facebook page**, because olgachild was continually rude to me.- Even on her last post on here she calls me "the lady". She also took everything I said the wrong way. (I never said or meant that ILE is more expensive than SS. And I never refused to give dates and places of birth of all family.) I was only asking questions and advice (*before rationally moving or making any decisions at all). She was constantly degrading me as a projection of her own inadequacy and inferiority complex...BTW she is not even British or American. She is a Russian & lives in France. She even questioned how and why I needed to apply for my right to British citizenship (by descent). She thought that I would have it automatically even though I was not born in the UK. She clearly did not know the British laws on that matter and one other matter as well. (I wish I could block her on this website as well as my Facebook page. *She has become someone who is a troll and harassing.* (I do not recommend anyone to deal with her legally or otherwise.) ----Thanks for your generous comments, Noajthan, as I value your opinion and your information. Noafthan, you are very knowledgeable and helpful! Many thanks to you and good luck/blessings in the future. VioletMarie. I will be asking you another question tomorrow though, because of your respect and vast knowledge.... Thanks.

Having a Russian partner myself of 14 years and an adopted Russian family I think what we have here is Russian plain-speaking. Often comes across as rude but it's isn't meant that way (usually). My partners father used to slam the phone down on me when she was in Russia with a curt 'not here'. What he infact was doing was thinking he was saving me money on the international phone call by being as quick as possible...

I find it helps balance the sugar-coaters who sometimes post on here implying all is fine and you will get your visa easily etc.

Anyway, back to the normal programming.....

[noajthan]

Well-written insight into dependency for over-21s:
https://cstaroni.wordpress.com/2014/01/ ... scendants/

[VioletMarie]

Noajthan:
Hello again (Cheers),

I hope that you are having a bright sunny day!
And back to the matter at hand for now, --->

If none of these options can work for us, then should I consider spending a few years in a commonwealth country, so that my children can become "citizens there first" (before going to the UK) to qualify for the "Ancestral Visa", ....... (because applicants have to be commonwealth citizens) for the ancestral visa to reside in the UK (since their grandmother was born in UK & I am British by descent)?

In that case, what would be the best/easiest/fastest commonwealth countries (to move to and gain citizenship for my children in order) to accomplish an "ancestral visa"? Would India be the best/easiest? Canada would be one of the hardest & longest I would imagine. Ideas?

Should their grandmother adopt them? Or should they become stateless? I am looking for ways/options...(and just brainstorming)... that is, if surinder singh in Ireland won't work......within the time we have left for SS and if the "work visa" for my son won't work, and if "indefinite leave to enter" ILE, for my children under 18 won't work, that is.....). My American born children are currently 20, 17, and 13.

(For my children under 18), do you think ILE would work for them? For my 21 year old, do you think work visa would be easy/feasible/option?

PS.--No thank you, Noajthan, I do not want to settle anything with her here or elsewhere.....
--"I don't even know her or want anything to do with her", after experiencing her attitude & rudeness. She is not welcome to keep following me either. **I am considering that harassment and trolling on her part.**--Olgachild was the one came onto "my post" that I made/started on here and "followed me" on to this page--after I blocked her from my facebook page. That was "Creepy" and uncalled for.

PS---> I would rather just deal with bright, intelligent, reasonable and respectable people such as yourself. I am also just talking to you on and others such as yourself in regards to the/this: "matter at hand"...helping us & others. Your support & others such as yourself has been & continues to be invaluable! Thanks.-

[VioletMarie]

Noajthan,

I am quoting you as saying, "Unfortunately, Part 8 is no longer possible, unless the transitional provisions apply. Over 18 year old son will be subject to the more difficult Appendix FM instead."

---Did you mean Part 8 is no longer possible (for my children under *18) as well ?
Also, please, what did you mean "unless the transitional provisions apply" ??

Thanks,
Violet Marie

[noajthan]

Well I don't know about ancestry routes and whether what you suggest is at all viable.
Will leave that to the Ancestry champs.

ILE and 3(2) or 3(5) may work for 2 youngest minors.
You would have to dig into question of parental responsibility/custody.

SS may work, you have time to get partway at least.
Then its all down to British sense of fairplay and transitional arrangements for those still 'in flight' when UK finally leaves EU in a couple of years or so.

And it doesn't have to be a sojourn in Eire;
there are Anglophile and English-speaking countries such as Malta; (Cyprus).

Note WWOOF hosts are unlikely to take on whole family; such work is also unlikely to pass the EU 'genuine and effective' test for a worker qualified person.

For oldest son, UK Tier 2 is all about skillset and graduate level (or higher) qualification then finding a sponsor.

Worst case: there's probably a lot worse things than US and a Trump/Clinton future.

[noajthan]

Noajthan,

I am quoting you as saying, "Unfortunately, Part 8 is no longer possible, unless the transitional provisions apply. Over 18 year old son will be subject to the more difficult Appendix FM instead."

---Did you mean Part 8 is no longer possible (for my children under *18) as well ?
Also, please, what did you mean "unless the transitional provisions apply" ??

Thanks,
Violet Marie

You're quoting moderator Vinny there, not me.

And that's not my area, you'll have to wait for Vinny to tap into the Matrix.

[Wanderer]

I know citizenship for India takes 12 years so that's not an option.

Not sure about Oz or NZ but I think it's quite tough, plus you'd need to have some way of gaining entry initially, like student visa, work visa etc, so that's either money or highly-skilled.

To be honest I'm not sure it's viable and the very shortest would be 5 years to PR, plus one more for citizenship.

[VioletMarie]

I thought it was funny when you said-for Vinny to tap --"into the Matrix". LOL.
-Lol.--Will he answer my question then you think?

(Also don't forget that I would not have time to do "three years" in UK
before most children turn 18 for that other immigration route.)

And there does not seem to be much work in Malta. I am not sure about Cyprus for accommodations and jobs)and I was thinking it would be harder to get to UK afterwards from there.

[noajthan]

I thought it was funny when you said-for Vinny to tap --"into the Matrix". LOL.
-Lol.--Will he answer my question then you think?

(Also don't forget that I would not have time to do "three years" in UK
before most children turn 18 for that other immigration route.)

And there does not seem to be much work in Malta. I am not sure about Cyprus for accommodations and jobs)and I was thinking it would be harder to get to UK afterwards from there.

Time is slightly against you on both UK and EU routes.

Seasonal work in Malta; must be worse places to wash dishes. Or in gaming sector.
You only need to hack it for 6 months or so.

Can't really see what difference it makes travelling from a.n.other memberstate back to UK.
Just a few hours flight at most.

[VioletMarie]

Well, the difference for me in getting to the UK afterwards leaving from Malta versus Ireland is the **price of **four people and a *dog on a plane, etc, versus simply driving, taking the train or bus, over a few miles without to Northern Ireland (& hassle free I imagine as well). BTW not too many planes take huge dogs....and I might not qualify for "renting a car". I have debit cards only and not credit cards.

Have there been many people who have passed SS only doing *3 months? &
Does *4 months make a huge difference with success of SS?