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Application for PR - no CSI

Use this section for any queries concerning the EU Settlement Scheme, for applicants holding pre-settled and settled status.

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noajthan
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Re: Application for PR - no CSI

Post by noajthan » Tue Aug 23, 2016 9:10 pm

harridan6 wrote:Thanks!

That's what I've wanted to do. The situation looks like this: my parent came to work in the UK in 2009. She worked continuously for a year, she got registered with WRS etc. I arrived in the UK in 2010 and was in full-time education for 5 years while living with my parent. I didn't work until 2012 when I got a part-time job, then I worked mostly part-time until 2015 and my graduation. From then until now I have worked full-time and therefore been self-sufficient and a migrant worker. But during the required period of 5 years I actually was dependent on my parent. I actually rang HO today and I was advised to do that. The advisor told me that I should have applied as a dependent in the first place (but then, as you said, they aren't always reliable).
Yes they are not reliable.
But the collective hive mind of the forum is - and you can apply as dependent.

So get to it.

If under 21 its very straightforward;
if over 21 at any time in those 5 years you need to prove financial dependency on bank of mom and dad (since age 21).
All that is gold does not glitter; Not all those who wander are lost. E&OE.

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Re: Application for PR - no CSI

Post by harridan6 » Tue Aug 23, 2016 10:04 pm

That sounds like great news. I wonder how I would go about proving financial dependency though... it's not like I got money from my parent every month to my bank account. I didn't have to pay rent, bills etc. but I didn't get any money transfers from my parent as such. I feel like that's gonna be another problem.

On another hand, I started working in 2012, before I turned 21. I was still a student and I had a "0 hour" contract only, but would that make me a migrant worker already? I think I'd have to be in proper full-time job to qualify as such...

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Re: Application for PR - no CSI

Post by harridan6 » Tue Aug 23, 2016 10:13 pm

Actually, my parent has received Housing Benefit "for me" when I was still a student, which would maybe prove that I was dependent and not working full-time. She would also receive Child Benefit and Child Tax Credit on my account but these stopped when I turned 20 anyway. She would get Housing Benefit up until the point when I started working full-time, which was in 2015.

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Re: Application for PR - no CSI

Post by noajthan » Tue Aug 23, 2016 10:15 pm

harridan6 wrote:That sounds like great news. I wonder how I would go about proving financial dependency though... it's not like I got money from my parent every month to my bank account. I didn't have to pay rent, bills etc. but I didn't get any money transfers from my parent as such. I feel like that's gonna be another problem.

On another hand, I started working in 2012, before I turned 21. I was still a student and I had a "0 hour" contract only, but would that make me a migrant worker already? I think I'd have to be in proper full-time job to qualify as such...
You can dig into such vital questions here in HO guidance:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... s_v3_0.pdf
- see section on dependency.

Yes, bank statements would be good - you need a rock-solid papertrail to back your case that parent/sponsor supplied your essential daily needs; we're not talking beer money here.

To qualify as a worker the work has to be genuine and effective. But as a FM your activity would be immaterial.
All that is gold does not glitter; Not all those who wander are lost. E&OE.

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Re: Application for PR - no CSI

Post by harridan6 » Tue Aug 23, 2016 10:41 pm

As I said, I don't have money transfers from my mom to my account to cover the rent or food because we lived together in the same household. The only thing I can present would be our bank statements and the Housing Benefit which proves I was living with my mum and not being financially independent (because if I was she wouldn't get the HB - that is the case now that I work full-time).

If I fail to get all the required, good evidence, is there any point in me applying as an extended family member?

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Re: Application for PR - no CSI

Post by noajthan » Wed Aug 24, 2016 12:32 am

harridan6 wrote:As I said, I don't have money transfers from my mom to my account to cover the rent or food because we lived together in the same household. The only thing I can present would be our bank statements and the Housing Benefit which proves I was living with my mum and not being financially independent (because if I was she wouldn't get the HB - that is the case now that I work full-time).

If I fail to get all the required, good evidence, is there any point in me applying as an extended family member?
Evidence is vital, you will not be given benefit of doubt.

If you fail to be considered as a FM then yes, you may be considered as an EFM.

To get into the head of the caseworker who will determine if you are an EFM see here:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... _clean.pdf

For an EFM to acquire PR they have to show they have held an EFM RC as the dependent of their sponsor.
It is unclear if any form of RC, eg EEA (QP), would suffice, I'm not sure about that..
Anyway do you hold any RC, such as EEA (QP) for Union citizen, or an EFM RC?
All that is gold does not glitter; Not all those who wander are lost. E&OE.

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Re: Application for PR - no CSI

Post by Noetic » Wed Aug 24, 2016 6:27 am

Living in the same household should make it easier to prove dependence as long as you can find sufficient evidence that you lived there during this time, plus your and their bank statements showing both address and that you didn't pay them rent.

e.g. correspondence from school, uni, NHS letters, registration documents for anything you may have signed up for in that time like gym, subscription to magazines, driving licence, car insurance, anything in your name that you may have kept that shows this address.

This is in addition to their documents showing residence and exercise of treaty rights over that 5 year period.

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Re: Application for PR - no CSI

Post by harridan6 » Wed Aug 24, 2016 8:04 am

Noetic, thanks so much! I have tons of paperwork like that and some of them I sent to the HO already, so just look forward to getting them back.

noajthan, I believe that, if I were to be considered EFM, I would qualify for this option:
"The person must be the relative of the EEA national and would meet the requirements of the Immigration
Rules for indefinite leave to remain (ILR) as a dependent relative of the EEA national where the EEA
national is present and settled in the UK".

"For more information, see section 6.0 of related link: Appendix FM" - I've searched this section 6.0 for more info last evening, but couldn't find anything substantial. I'll print it off today though and go through it again.

I don't have any residence cards whatsoever... I have my passport which is from an EU country obviously, and then I want to go to my country of origin to also obtain a national ID card from there. I was going to do get it as a back-up ID for when I send my passport again, but do you reckon I should send it to HO also?

Also - if I apply as a dependent (direct family member or extended), do I need to show evidence of dependence only for the period when I wasn't working full-time? You say that if I'm applying under this category, my activity doesn't really matter. But when working full-time, I haven't been financially dependent on my parent anymore... I'm not sure if that wouldn't cause confusion in the application.

To make things more complicated, when I was in the third year of university, I was required to undertake a work placement. It was full-time work and it was paid just as normal employment... However, I was still enrolled on the course, I paid tuition fee for that year as normal and I have evidence that this placement was a compulsory part of the course. After my placement finished, this host organisation didn't keep me on and I struggled to find another full-time job, so I just lived with my mum as a dependent again until the end of my uni course (well, I did find a job after a while, but I worked part-time until graduation).

Sorry for all this load of information, which I'm not even sure if is of importance, but I just wouldn't like to make another stupid mistake, miss anything etc. and I don't really have anyone to ask. I did send an enquiry to my local CAB to see if they have an immigration specialist, so I could pester them instead. Thanks again for all your assistance!

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Re: Application for PR - no CSI

Post by noajthan » Wed Aug 24, 2016 8:55 am

Your activity is immaterial if a dependent, that's the point: it gets you off the hook;
no need for WRS/CSI etc etc.

Evidence of dependence only required at
over age 21. Under 21 you can be a FM.

BUT HO guidance is clear, EFM RC required for EFM to acquire PR.
An EEA QP might have done at a pinch (its a grey area for those switching categories).
But no RC, no PR as an EFM.

See EFM doc, linked above.
All that is gold does not glitter; Not all those who wander are lost. E&OE.

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Re: Application for PR - no CSI

Post by harridan6 » Wed Aug 24, 2016 9:32 am

Is this EFM RC a residence card I should have applied for when srriving to the UK? I am direct family though, so I never thought I'd need anything like that...

So, if at some point I started working and stopped being dependent then I cannot apply as a dependent at all? I'm sorry, I'm really baffled by all this.

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Re: Application for PR - no CSI

Post by noajthan » Wed Aug 24, 2016 4:02 pm

harridan6 wrote:Is this EFM RC a residence card I should have applied for when srriving to the UK? I am direct family though, so I never thought I'd need anything like that...

So, if at some point I started working and stopped being dependent then I cannot apply as a dependent at all? I'm sorry, I'm really baffled by all this.
Read the links I've posted - that's why they've been posted.
To get DCPR approved an EFM needs an EFM RC.

Now you are contemplating claiming to be an EFM you are likely to need an EFM RC.
Or else any application for confirmation of PR that includes a period of time as an EFM is going to be refused.

Obviously you are unlikely to have an EFM RC as, back in the day, you didn't know you were going to apply for DCPR as an EFM.

Even if you had/have a RC for EEA (QP) I am not clear whether that would be acceptable.
Wait for other champs to weigh in on that question.
All that is gold does not glitter; Not all those who wander are lost. E&OE.

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Re: Application for PR - no CSI

Post by harridan6 » Wed Aug 24, 2016 4:38 pm

Ok. I don't see how I could possibly go about this then, I don't have any RC and I've been independent for a while so I can't just apply as a dependent child anymore.

I'll consult a lawyer too closer the date and if I cannot apply then I guess I'll leave it and see what happens. If I can't stay here then I'll just move to Ireland, tough luck.

Thanks for your help again.

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Re: Application for PR - no CSI

Post by noajthan » Wed Aug 24, 2016 4:46 pm

harridan6 wrote:Ok. I don't see how I could possibly go about this then, I don't have any RC and I've been independent for a while so I can't just apply as a dependent child anymore.

I'll consult a lawyer too closer the date and if I cannot apply then I guess I'll leave it and see what happens. If I can't stay here then I'll just move to Ireland, tough luck.

Thanks for your help again.
Worst case: start/continue exercising treaty rights & apply for EEA(QP).

Rely on British sense of fair play and any transitional arrangements (yet) to be put in place for the '000s of Union citizens still 'in flight'.
Based on past EU-related transitional arrangements, EU-documentation will be a worthwhile investment and a key factor in such provisions.
All that is gold does not glitter; Not all those who wander are lost. E&OE.

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Re: Application for PR - no CSI

Post by ptstream » Wed Aug 24, 2016 5:23 pm

Why do you think you can't stay if you said you're working? probably you won't get PR now but you're lawfully resident.
I don't know any EEA citizen expelled so far

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Re: Application for PR - no CSI

Post by harridan6 » Tue Aug 30, 2016 7:30 pm

Hello, me again - there are well-oriented people on here so I just wanted to clarify something regarding my circumstances. I hope you can help.

I thought things through and I don't think I can include my time as a just-student in my residence period (as I had no CSI). I was dependent on my parent, but as soon as I turned 21 I should have gotten the CSI anyway.

However, I realised that when I got my first job - zero hours contract, but I'd always work at least 3 days per week - I was still only 20. From then on I either worked, or was looking for work for a period of time. So, until I was 20 I was a student and supported by my parent, but from then on I would maybe qualify as a worker? I checked the regulations and they don't specify that it has to be full-time contracted hours employment, as long as one earns enough not to claim benefits. I was getting the student loans, but I'm not sure if that counts as social benefits, but I don't think so.

Still, it's maybe a bit "dodgy" if I tried to apply on two different grounds, that is: 2010-2012 - dependent person under 21 and 2012-onwards employed person.

But, I think that when I started working I no longer needed the CSI. I read somewhere on another forum that, even if one works part-time, they don't need the insurance even if they are also students. I'm not sure if that is correct, so I thought you might be able to clarify.

If that is the case, then I started working in May 2012 and my five years will pass in May 2017. I could then maybe apply as an individual working person?

If not, then well - I only graduated from university last year, so I have 4 more to go for residence card. By then the UK will surely have left the EU. Hopefully, when Brexit happens, if I am employed as normal, I hope there will be some sort of work permit available that I'll be able to avail of and that way stay home. If not, then I suppose I will have to leave for Dublin... ptstream - I know that there probably won't be any mass deportations of EU citizens, but to be fair anyone who isn't a permanent resident at the time of Brexit isn't really "safe". It might be tough for people to get the work permit etc. - nobody can tell for sure which is why I'm a bit worried.

Thanks for any replies in advance!

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Re: Application for PR - no CSI

Post by Richard W » Tue Aug 30, 2016 9:16 pm

noajthan wrote:Evidence of dependence only required at
over age 21. Under 21 you can be a FM.

BUT HO guidance is clear, EFM RC required for EFM to acquire PR.
I'm confused. Who was the OP dependent on? A dependent son over 21 is still a direct family member, not an extended family member:
EEA Regulation 7(1) wrote: 7.—(1) Subject to paragraph (2), for the purposes of these Regulations the following persons shall be treated as the family members of another person–
(a) his spouse or his civil partner;
(b) direct descendants of his, his spouse or his civil partner who are–
(i) under 21; or
(ii) dependants of his, his spouse or his civil partner;
<snip>

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Re: Application for PR - no CSI

Post by noajthan » Tue Aug 30, 2016 9:31 pm

Richard W wrote:I'm confused. Who was the OP dependent on? A dependent son over 21 is still a direct family member, not an extended family member:
...
Keep up RW. OP is claiming to be treated as an EFM if claim to be a FM fails.
All that is gold does not glitter; Not all those who wander are lost. E&OE.

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Re: Application for PR - no CSI

Post by noajthan » Tue Aug 30, 2016 9:35 pm

harridan6 wrote:Hello, me again - there are well-oriented people on here so I just wanted to clarify something regarding my circumstances. I hope you can help.

I thought things through and I don't think I can include my time as a just-student in my residence period (as I had no CSI). I was dependent on my parent, but as soon as I turned 21 I should have gotten the CSI anyway.

However, I realised that when I got my first job - zero hours contract, but I'd always work at least 3 days per week - I was still only 20. From then on I either worked, or was looking for work for a period of time. So, until I was 20 I was a student and supported by my parent, but from then on I would maybe qualify as a worker? I checked the regulations and they don't specify that it has to be full-time contracted hours employment, as long as one earns enough not to claim benefits. I was getting the student loans, but I'm not sure if that counts as social benefits, but I don't think so.

Still, it's maybe a bit "dodgy" if I tried to apply on two different grounds, that is: 2010-2012 - dependent person under 21 and 2012-onwards employed person.

But, I think that when I started working I no longer needed the CSI. I read somewhere on another forum that, even if one works part-time, they don't need the insurance even if they are also students. I'm not sure if that is correct, so I thought you might be able to clarify.

If that is the case, then I started working in May 2012 and my five years will pass in May 2017. I could then maybe apply as an individual working person?

...

Thanks for any replies in advance!
Workers need to show work is genuine and effective, as per EU law.
Workers don't need CSI.

HO applies its MET/PET test to determine who it thinks is a worker; this goes above and beyond the cleaner, purer EU law.

Get up to speed on qualified persons, including who is a worker and who is a student, in HO guidance here:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... _clean.pdf
- or, if I posted this for you earlier, suggest read and digest it.

No point agonising over post-Brexit. Nothing you can do and you have no voice.

Just keep calm and carry on exercising treaty rights.
And think of England and trust in the traditional British sense of fair play.
All that is gold does not glitter; Not all those who wander are lost. E&OE.

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Re: Application for PR - no CSI

Post by Richard W » Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:31 pm

noajthan wrote:
Richard W wrote:I'm confused. Who was the OP dependent on? A dependent son over 21 is still a direct family member, not an extended family member:
...
Keep up RW. OP is claiming to be treated as an EFM if claim to be a FM fails.
Please bear in mind the law - the Home Office often works to it.

If the OP was dependent on his mother, he was not her EFM, but her direct FM. He appears to be thinking that once he reached 21, he could not be her direct family member. That is simply wrong.

Now, it may be that an EFM relationship arises from being part of her household rather than dependence. That however relies on there being an RC as some sort of family member, and moreover Obie seems never to have heard of such a claim working. He insisted that an EFM relationship derived from dependence.

The OP can qualify with a mixture of statuses - FM and QP can be freely mixed, as must happen with quite a few married couples.

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Re: Application for PR - no CSI

Post by harridan6 » Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:42 pm

Thanks again noajthan.
True, there is no way to predict what exactly will happen and hopefully the government will be fair on those foreign nationals who had lived in the UK before the referendum or whenever Article 50 is triggered.

I do believe that my work can be classified as genuine and effective - I always had a proper contract outlining my job responsibilities and pay, it was also always between 25-30 hours a week and then I worked basically whenever I could as I wasn't in university - bank holidays, Christmas breaks, holidays on a full-time basis etc. and that shows on my P60s. Then during my university placement I worked full-time and also in my last university year. I will give it another try and apply after May 2017 as an individual working person and see if my application gets accepted: it isn't firmly stated what "genuine and effective" employment is, so there is always a degree to which it's someone's evaluation and I may either get lucky or not. However, I think I actually stand a chance then. If not, I'll try again at some point later, whatever happens.
The OP can qualify with a mixture of statuses - FM and QP can be freely mixed, as must happen with quite a few married couples.
She! ;)
That's interesting Richard, do you reckon I could apply as a direct family member and then qualified person (employed)? I think I'll just follow the plan above, to be on the safer side, but I'd still like to know what you think.

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Re: Application for PR - no CSI

Post by Richard W » Tue Aug 30, 2016 11:19 pm

harridan6 wrote:That's interesting Richard, do you reckon I could apply as a direct family member and then qualified person (employed)? I think I'll just follow the plan above, to be on the safer side, but I'd still like to know what you think.
Yes, there is no problem with that. One of the possible answers to Question 3.1 of Version 03/2016 of the EEA(PR) form is
I’ve lived in the UK for a continuous period of five years as an EEA national qualified person, the family member or extended family member of a qualified person, or a combination of these.
Note the word 'combination'.

The only problem I can see is if you lived off your saved earnings before depending on your mother again. I'm pretty sure you'd still qualify (e.g. case law says EFM status isn't lost by getting reasonable job), but I'm not sure how to present that in an application.

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Re: Application for PR - no CSI

Post by noajthan » Tue Aug 30, 2016 11:31 pm

Richard W wrote:
noajthan wrote:
Richard W wrote:I'm confused. Who was the OP dependent on? A dependent son over 21 is still a direct family member, not an extended family member:
...
Keep up RW. OP is claiming to be treated as an EFM if claim to be a FM fails.
Please bear in mind the law - the Home Office often works to it.

If the OP was dependent on his mother, he was not her EFM, but her direct FM. He appears to be thinking that once he reached 21, he could not be her direct family member. That is simply wrong.

Now, it may be that an EFM relationship arises from being part of her household rather than dependence. That however relies on there being an RC as some sort of family member, and moreover Obie seems never to have heard of such a claim working. He insisted that an EFM relationship derived from dependence.

The OP can qualify with a mixture of statuses - FM and QP can be freely mixed, as must happen with quite a few married couples.
Oh gosh the law, wonder why I didn't think of that. Or, um, maybe I did.

RW read the whole topic. You have no need to second guess or imagine what OP was thinking, s/he tells in the topic.
If its not clear ask - that's generally an effective way to operate in the forum.

OP believes s/he has inadequate evidence. So believes s/he cannot proves s/he's an FM (etc etc).
So read the topic. Another effective practice.
All that is gold does not glitter; Not all those who wander are lost. E&OE.

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Re: Application for PR - no CSI

Post by noajthan » Tue Aug 30, 2016 11:41 pm

harridan6 wrote:Thanks again noajthan.
True, there is no way to predict what exactly will happen and hopefully the government will be fair on those foreign nationals who had lived in the UK before the referendum or whenever Article 50 is triggered.

I do believe that my work can be classified as genuine and effective - I always had a proper contract outlining my job responsibilities and pay, it was also always between 25-30 hours a week and then I worked basically whenever I could as I wasn't in university - bank holidays, Christmas breaks, holidays on a full-time basis etc. and that shows on my P60s. Then during my university placement I worked full-time and also in my last university year. I will give it another try and apply after May 2017 as an individual working person and see if my application gets accepted: it isn't firmly stated what "genuine and effective" employment is, so there is always a degree to which it's someone's evaluation and I may either get lucky or not. However, I think I actually stand a chance then. If not, I'll try again at some point later, whatever happens.
The OP can qualify with a mixture of statuses - FM and QP can be freely mixed, as must happen with quite a few married couples.
She! ;)
That's interesting Richard, do you reckon I could apply as a direct family member and then qualified person (employed)? I think I'll just follow the plan above, to be on the safer side, but I'd still like to know what you think.
Ofcourse combinations are permitted.
Did you not propose that yourself.

Its all covered in the EFM guide.
That and the QP guide (both linked above) should sort you out.

For any period you believe you might have been a direct FM dependent see:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... s_v3_0.pdf
- note sections on dependency.

However gaps in treaty rights will be the dealbreaker.

You need to itemise your timeline and activity/ies in UK together with any (possible) dependency on your sponsor (if any) and your age at each major stage - either here or on back of the proverbial beer mat.

Collate supporting evidence (good evidence);
Have a go filling out a PR form;

See how it all shapes up.
All that is gold does not glitter; Not all those who wander are lost. E&OE.

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Re: Application for PR - no CSI

Post by harridan6 » Wed Aug 31, 2016 6:50 pm

noajthan, thank you for all your help.
You need to itemise your timeline and activity/ies in UK together with any (possible) dependency on your sponsor (if any) and your age at each major stage - either here or on back of the proverbial beer mat.
Ok, I have done that below. To be honest, now that I look at my situation, I highly doubt that much can be done for the time being, but maybe there is something I'm missing etc.

To make the question of age clearer: I was born in December 1991.

July – September 2010: I joined my mum in the UK and remained dependent, living at home.
September 2010 – June 2011: I attended an ESOL course full-time; I was still dependent on my mum and not working.
June – September 2011: I was dependent on my mum, living at home before starting university. I had a weekend job, but it wasn’t official, no contract etc.
September 2011 – May 2012: I was a full-time university student, still dependent on my parent.

May 2012 - July 2013: I started work before my 21st birthday. I mostly worked full-time, however for a few weeks during the semesters when I was really busy in uni, I would do 3-4 days weekly.

July – August 2013: I took a holiday before starting another job, had my job offer already and the job was sorted via university.

August 2013 – January 2014: I worked in Dublin – less than 6 months in total, it was in the frame of a compulsory industrial placement for the university, I have an official confirmation from the university for it. I worked full-time.

January – June 2014: I worked the other part of my placement in the UK, full-time.

June – September 2014: My placement contract ended and the employer didn’t keep me on as they were “overstaffed”. I made a big mistake here and listened to bad advice – I didn’t register with Jobcentre Plus. I didn’t know you could register without taking benefits, and I didn’t want to take any benefits from the government, to make sure I was a person of “good character” (I know…). I kept looking for work actively though, I have a whole folder with e-mails printed off, application forms etc. for a variety of jobs. During this time I was living off my savings, my mum helped me out a bit but there would be no official trace of it (cash in hand), I was living with my boyfriend at the time as well, so not in the family home.

September 2014: I finally got a job – however, I only kept it for 3 weeks as the atmosphere was really bad and I was harassed by a senior colleague (I know it sounds rather dodgy but there is a trace of this employment on my record so I have to mention it. I wrote a letter of complaint to the regional manager of this company as this incident was really bad, but I didn’t take them to court or anything of that sort – I’m not even sure if that’d be counted as involuntarily unemployed…).

October – 26th November 2014: I was looking for work again, I have applications and letters as well (but still not registered with Jobcentre Plus).

26th November 2014 – June 2016: I got a job and was in the last year of university. It was a zero hour contract (hotel), but I worked full-time most weeks. I kept the job after the graduation from university in July 2015. This industry is rather tricky, because most contracts are zero hours and the amount of working hours depends on the needs of the business. It was mostly full-time in my case though. In the meantime, I moved back in with my family (this time paying rent etc.), but I suppose that doesn't really matter.

June 2016 – now: I have a steady, full-time job and a contract with guaranteed hours.

I suppose that my absolute best chances of getting any document is to start counting my "eligible" time from November 2014, and so, apply in December 2019 (if I still can as per the new UK rules, that is - hopefully so). I wish I had found this forum and was smarter about my moves way earlier on, I could have avoided many stupid mistakes - but well.

Added:

Interestingly, I consulted an immigration lawyer (only as an initial consultation, because for anything more I have to pay £500, of course) and I have just received his answer (in my e-mail I presented my situation in detail like above) - he states that, "because I remained in full-time education from July 2010 until July 2015, that in itself makes me dependent on my mother and thus eligible to apply". He goes on to explain that this is because my mother paid for my ESOL course in the first year and then during university I received all of my student finance based on my mother's employment and financial circumstances (and not mine).

Strange - but then again, as lawyers go, he might be wanting me to pay and then it might turn out that I'm actually not eligible...

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