why I voted for brexit

[Russell59]

Actually my Wife obtained Her Visa.Before you pass serious comment on the Nefarious Agenda of the Eu i suggest you carry out your own research in to the Formation and Aims of the EU and simply do not blindly accept the anti Brexit outpourings of the MSM..The fact of the Matter is that the UK is leaving the Federal State of Europe deal or no deal.

[FXR_1340]

...........The fact of the Matter is that the UK is leaving the Federal State of Europe deal or no deal.

And if its the latter then we are all stuffed!

Many did vote to Leave simply on the basis of immigration and FoM. Once again we see Westminster not doing what it is empowered to do and manage immigration.

Be it illegal immigrants who later squeal about wanting to become legal or FoM immigrants who become a burden on the State. The latter can be ejected after a number of months if they do necome a burden. The former is what it is. These illegals want to cheat, lie, carry out illegal deeds, use the NHS, work under the radar and dont pay taxes then expect a sympathetic hearing to become legal. Again, Westminster does precious little to eject these people.

This country is heading for the skids.......

[rooibos]

It's not all doom and gloom. At least we know that No Deal Hard Brexit will be good for Putin! Dasvidaniya!

[secret.simon]

Worth reflecting on this Twitter thread by a Remainer and a former SNP Minister/MSP.

Also worth looking at whether you have access (via work or studies) to the book recommended in that Twitter thread: Losers' Consent: Elections and Democratic Legitimacy.

[Obie]

Worth reflecting on this Twitter thread by a Remainer and a former SNP Minister/MSP.

Also worth looking at whether you have access (via work or studies) to the book recommended in that Twitter thread: Losers' Consent: Elections and Democratic Legitimacy.

I do not believe this book can effectively address the Brexit situation. In the general sense of things i accept its premise in some respect, but clearly i cannot accept this 2005 publish book in the context of Brexit.

Brexit is an unmitigated disaster, the likes of which the world has never seen. Hard Brexit is not like a general election which can be changed in 5 years. The disaster of Brexit is likely to affect generations of people to come.

Knowing now that there were campaign finance violations by the leave side, the interference of Russia and other dark forces.

I do believe Brits should demand an opportunity to seek and exit from Brexit.

[Russell59]

17 Million People voted to leave the EU,it was a democratic election and the result is final...The people have spoken and their wishes will be respected.On the Ballot Form the question was simple and easy to understand..do you wish to leave or remain in the EU.

[NikiGio]

A vote swayed in the final week by illegal major cash injections that caused two of the major Leave-side organisations to be heavily fined for breaching elwctoral law is hardly democratic. We can't proceed with Brexit based on the results of an advisory referendum with only a 4% margin. Even a hard Brexiteer like Farage stated as such.

The people voted in 2016 based on a theory. Voting based on facts on paper is more democratic than voting on a theory.

Based also on what we saw in the Commons debate this week - what is being delivered is clearly not what the people voted for. If we get a deal that people don't want, then it's not the will of the people.

A final say on whether to go for a hard Brexit, a no-deal Brexit or Remain is the only democratic way forward - if Brexit wins again ensuring there are no illegal irregularities and based on facts - so be it.

[Ffmuni]

17 Million People voted to leave the EU,it was a democratic election and the result is final...

It is a strange argument to say a vote "is final" in any democracy. Surely a democracy is one in which the electorate are not denied a vote. Brexiters just seem to employ the claim it is anti-democratic as they want to seal the leave vote in aspic. The actuality of Brexit is so different from the promises made and the evidence now available is so much more comprehensive and detailed.

I would refer you to a certain MP by the name of David Davis who said in 2012 “If a democracy cannot change its mind, it ceases to be a democracy.”

[Russell59]

There were 2 questions on the Voting Form Do you want to Leave or Remain in the EU ,you made your choice and ticked the Box.The Govt said that it would implement the final decision.Nothing about a Deal or a Second referendum.I am afraid that the remoaners must accept the fact that they lost the vote and that the UK will be leaving the EU .Simple really.

[FXR_1340]

There were 2 questions on the Voting Form Do you want to Leave or Remain in the EU ,you made your choice and ticked the Box.The Govt said that it would implement the final decision.Nothing about a Deal or a Second referendum.I am afraid that the remoaners must accept the fact that they lost the vote and that the UK will be leaving the EU .Simple really.

A very simplistic view.

You fail to mention or even allude to the misleading (lies?) statements made. Think Big Red Bus.....

However, what did seem to escape the voting populace was those on the Leave side had no means of fullfiling their proposals. They were not government, therefore could almost say what ever they wanted in the full knowledge they had no requirement to make it work.

One of the major points during the Ref was immigration and Freedom of Movement. Quite simply the electorate was duped during the campaign. Moreover, not only duped during the campaign but duped for many many years before. For example, almost no mention was made of UK Govt having the powers to eject those who had entered the country under FoM when those same people became a financial burden on the UK.

Put simply, and admitted recently by a senior Tory politician, the political leaders at WM got it wrong and have persistantly let the people down.

[Obie]

17 Million People voted to leave the EU,it was a democratic election and the result is final...The people have spoken and their wishes will be respected.On the Ballot Form the question was simple and easy to understand..do you wish to leave or remain in the EU.

A vote that was marred by lies and fraud. A campaign which is infested by dirty dealer and crooks, one of whom is facing a criminal Probe.

Britain urgently needs an exit from Brexit, to deal with this calamitous event. The whole country and political is in shamble, i have never seen a mess like this.

Long live people vote.

Only a people's vote can atone the UK of the curse and sins of Brexit. Brexit has essentially brought the UK to it knees. Any one who cannot see that needs to have their heads checked. They are clearly a sandwich short of a picnic.

[rooibos]

There were 2 questions on the Voting Form Do you want to Leave or Remain in the EU ,you made your choice and ticked the Box.The Govt said that it would implement the final decision.Nothing about a Deal or a Second referendum.I am afraid that the remoaners must accept the fact that they lost the vote and that the UK will be leaving the EU .Simple really.

Troll!

[NikiGio]

A vote that was marred by lies and fraud. A campaign which is infested by dirty dealer and crooks, one of whom is facing a criminal Probe.

Britain urgently needs an exit from Brexit, to deal with this calamitous event. The whole country and political is in shamble, i have never seen a mess like this.

Absolutely - cheating, foreign interference, lying, an incompetent regulator, failure to adhere to our Venice Convention commitments.

This has been a fraud on democracy, and our credibility in the international arena is shot.

If this referendum had taken place in an African country - the West would be crying foul and demanding that the fraudulent result be set aside.

An African country, Kenya, set aside its referendum result after its Supreme Court ruled it hadn't been conducted in accordance with the Constitution.

Cambridge Analytica was one of the common denominators of the Kenyan and UK votes. A supposedly 'developing' country was able to do the right thing, but our country seems to insist being blind to the fact that the referendum vote wasn't democratic and a fresh vote needs to be held, asking the population to choose between no deal, whatever deal this government agrees (if any) and remaining.

The vote needs to be-run in a democratic manner, overseen by a competent independent body able to ensure adherence to Electoral Law and proper regulation of political finance.

Crying 'you won, get over it' just doesn't cut it in a democratic society. 16.1Mil voters, 750 000 marchers and 1Mil signatories are demanding a democratic Final Say.

After all - the world's most democratic countries routinely hold confirmatory referendums. Perhaps we should look at Ireland to see how to properly run a referendum of such importance.

[Russell59]

The People have voted and their choice was to leave and that is the final word.

[secret.simon]

The People have voted and their choice was to leave and that is the final word.

Regardless of the merits or demerits of Brexit,
a) things that start with "The People" tend to be tyrannical/dictatorial (cf the People's Democratic Republic of China, etc, though thankfully the People's Post Office has not gone down that route) and it may be better to phrase it in other ways.
b) there is no reason to suppose that "that is the final word", for at least five reasons.

i) One does not always get what one wishes. One needs to negotiate, and in this case, we are negotiating from a position of weakness (we are decidedly smaller than the EU27 in economic terms).
ii) People change. Minds can be changed. That is the whole basis of any democratic system, that people can and do change minds. Otherwise, one election per generation is all that is needed.
iii) The electorate does change and has changed, not only with births and deaths, but with many formerly EEA citizens (without a vote) getting British citizenship and therefore the vote.
iv) "Events, dear boy, events". Events outside Brexit may have an impact on how Brexit occurs and if the end result is far from what was voted for, it is possible that people will change their mind. It would then be unfair to not stop a process started by the people's will.
v) There is many a slip betwixt cup and lip.

Having said that, I am surprised that the Survation poll found that 46% of the UK still wants Brexit, given what we now know about how difficult Brexit would be, the impact on jobs, etc. If with such full knowledge of the effect of Brexit, 46% of the country still want Brexit, then Remainers have to ask why and attempt to address the concerns of the 46%.

As an aside, a few posts on Twitter suggest that the EU will not support a second referendum/People's Vote. The EU27 want Brexit to be done and dusted, so that they can focus on their other issues (populism within the EU27, Poland and Hungary, the Italian budget, etc). It seems that they will tell the Remainers that the deal will be a take-it-or-leave-it deal. There is essentially now way back now, even from the EU's side.

[Obie]

The problem is not with remainer i guess, it is with some of these 46%. Some of these people have very very serious problems, they are not very nice people, they are evil, and they need a fundamental soul searching. Essentially these people need to be thought the advantages of diversity and how it is something that ought to be celebrated than abhor. Many of them grew up in hotbeds of hate and resentment always being brainwashed that migrant are the cause of all the misfortune that befell them, many of them are on benefit and don't want to work, many of them have never worked in the entirety of their miserable lives, but when they see migrant in their community thriving, they get upset. They were specifically thought from infancy how to hate. Some of their ancestors have never crossed the British Shores so their perceptive of the world at large is very limited and in some cases distorted. They were never told about the need to celebrate difference, rather than being fearful of people or culture which are different from their. Some of these people are beyond help, some of them will die in hate. They are mostly white and very old people. Essentially they are resistant to change, only death or demographic changes will eradicate them and the rabid views they hold.
Some of them need the migrant carer that cares for them but at the same time gets irritated by the mere thought of their presence in the same country as then, breathing the same air as them.

They are mostly people who are overwhelmed with hate. They are very unpleasant individuals who are desperate to make the UK white again.

They do not like immigrant very much, they think immigrant are the course of all their problems. They think UK is what it use to be in the days of the British empire.

The are in the delusional and fantasy would of believing the EU needs us more than we need them.

[Obie]

I have always had misgivings about leave voters and the motives for their vote. This poll appear to reinforce rather than diminishes it.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/h ... 48586.html

[Russell59]

A no deal Brexit is the default option it is enshrined in Law.No matter how much the Refuseniks try to ignore this fact.I suggest that before you reply and launch in to yet another tirade against the People who voted leave that you do your research,then just Man up and accept the result..There was already a people’s vote and they voted to leave.And that is what is going to happen like it or not.

[NikiGio]

A no deal Brexit is the default option it is enshrined in Law.

Debates like this one have played out thousands of times in the last 3 years - we're at crunch time now.

One aspect that doesn't seem to get much mention is that No Deal would also *break the law*: No Deal is *illegal*, as it would mean breaching a number of international agreements that the UK has signed up to, like the Good Friday Agreement.

Dominic Grieve has repated this recently in a Talk Radio interview by Julia Hartley-Brewer: content://com.sec.android.app.sbrowser/readinglist/0310164530.mhtml
Leaving with No Deal would make us an international pariah, a rogue country no one trusts. Who'd sign trade deals with us on that basis?

So what's going to happen remains to be seen.

Of the 17.4Mil who voted to Leave, some could have changed their minds sonce 2016 - having seen confirmation of electoral irregularities, Russian interference, and the dire consequences of Brexit, such as the fact that we're already losing international businesses like Honda.

[Obie]

I think the solution is an exit from Brexit. The UK has no viable choice other than to revoke Article 50.

Brexit is a cancer. It has become a malignant in the UK. It has eaten the state to breaking point.

It has caused a total paralysis to the state, and now the state is in turmoil. The only way out of this humiliation that the UK is facing is an exit from brexit.

[vinny]

BBC 17 May 2016

The question of a second referendum was raised by Mr Farage in an interview with the Mirror in which he said: "In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way. If the Remain campaign win two-thirds to one-third that ends it."

David Davis

If a democracy cannot change its mind, it ceases to be a democracy.

Should the UK remain in the eu if the only alternative is a hard brexit

It is not logical to stick to a decision without any reassessment of that decision if the situation changes. This is analogous to driving, where if you choose to turn right, then see a wall, but carry on going because the decision has been made. As negotiations have progressed, and the reality of the impact begin has begun to emerge, maybe we can now see the wall in front of us. This should at least mean that there is an opportunity to decide again.

[kamoe]

A no deal Brexit is the default option

This was not on the ballot paper. People did not vote for a no deal Brexit.

People voted to change their circumstances, for a variety of very different, desperate, and sometimes incompatible reasons: Poverty, Unemployment, Resentment (e.g. one's immigrant family had it difficult to stay in the UK, therefore, no one should have it easily), Party agendas, Ignorance (unawareness of the actual disadvantages of leaving the EU to one's personal situation), etc.

The problem is, leave voters were sold the lie that Brexit was the solution to their circumstances. For example, many people voted Brexit because they perceived EU nationals were taking jobs from British people. Have you realized that even under a no-deal scenario, EU nationals will still be allowed to come to the UK and work for three years? This will be even a worse situation than staying in the EU, as EU nationals will not have an incentive to stay. This translates in short-term temporary young workers who will work for a salary that's never going to be raised (as three years is not enough for progression), then leave. Then after three years another wave of young workers will come and do the same. This is a perfect recipe for perpetuating low-paid jobs, while not addressing British unemployment. That's your Tory government plan for no deal.

Plus, no one ever defined what Brexit really meant, and many people never understood it. The ballot paper might as well have been worded as:

The UK should

a) I don't know, anything but what we have now
b) Stay as we are.

And option a) would have won.

Maybe... what we need is to find what that option a) is. Very likely is a change of government and the end of austerity.

[NikiGio]

Plus, no one ever defined what Brexit really meant, and many people never understood it. The ballot paper might as well have been worded as:

The UK should

a) I don't know, anything but what we have now

Looking at Dawn Foster's tweet, the ***13*** options being voted on today by Parliament at the Indicative Votes show how many variations of 'Brexit' are being considered.

To quote David Allen Green:

Look at the state of this.

Thirteen possible answers to the question of what Brexit should mean.

Nearly three years after the referendum, and just two days before the original departure date.

And this is as far as we have got.

'The People' were cornered to choose between the status quo, which clearly at least half of the electorate were unhappy with, and sunlit uplands/the moon and the stars.

Anyway, that's all in the past and we are where we are.

Hopefully those MPs that value their conscience and their beliefs more than their party alliance and their cushy pay packet will get us out of this god awful hole we've dug for ourselves.

[kamoe]

One thing that got me angry about is why people from European Union can be like someone like who is an British Born person or from outside European union who has got ILR the British government should have given a time limit to the Europeans living in UK before they where allowed to claim any benefits, tax credits etc... I know they have just started doing this.

This is not only anger, it's resentment, which is an even more dangerous feeling. This leads people to do irrational things, based on a past you cannot change, and not the future.

Because you had it difficult, no one should have it easy.
You prefer to lose rights, than have someone else have them.
You prefer to lose alone, than win with friends.

Not a good starting point.

[CR001]

One thing that got me angry about is why people from European Union can be like someone like who is an British Born person or from outside European union who has got ILR the British government should have given a time limit to the Europeans living in UK before they where allowed to claim any benefits, tax credits etc... I know they have just started doing this.

This is not only anger, it's resentment, which is an even more dangerous feeling. This leads people to do irrational things, based on a past you cannot change, and not the future.

Because you had it difficult, no one should have it easy.
You prefer to lose rights, than have someone else have them.
You prefer to lose alone, than win with friends.

Not a good starting point.

@ Kamoe, you do realise you are quoting a post from Jan 2017 and the user has not logged into the forum for 2 years now.