Do dual EU-UK citizens have rights under EU law?

[silverman123]

@ebi.
Thanks for updating and welcome in this forum
Can you please tell us when did you apply for you residence card ? And when did you get married? And are you covered by transitional agreement or not?
And when you spouse naturalised (BC)?
Many thanks in advance we are all here in same boat.

[ebi]

Hi Unluckyeea2
The law is with us so you don't need a lawyer you can apply yourself. My relationship started 02/2013.....Residence card issued 15/04/2013 ... my partner naturalized as BC at 02/2015..
Good luck for everyone and myself because the battle is not finished yet......

[reynaldogr]

Non EEA family member of dual nationals Eu/Uk Permanent Residence Application.
Here is my time line

Application sent : 19/03/2018
HO received the Application 20/03/2018
Payment taken: 21/03/2018
Email confirmation: 26/03/2018
Biometric letter:
Biometric enrolled:
C.O.A received:
PR Card:

Hi ebi. Thanks for sharing your timeline. And thanks for everyone on this group for your very valuable information.

@ebi, did you mention in your application that your spouse was British in the section we is Ale’s if your sponsor has any other nationality? Did you refer to the Lounes case in your application through a cover letter and printing copy of the EJC full judgment?

My wife will be sending her application next month. We are now in the process to gather up all the information. Keep you all in the loop

Many thanks

[Unluckyeea2]

Hi everyone !
Thanks to all for updates .
@ ebi thanks for response . So that mean you applied for RC after TA date line like us and we hope positive out come , still no news from Salu .
All we waiting good news from him .Please keep updating .Thank you
.

[chaoscontrol]

Hi Unluckyeea2
The law is with us so you don't need a lawyer you can apply yourself. My relationship started 02/2013.....Residence card issued 15/04/2013 ... my partner naturalized as BC at 02/2015..
Good luck for everyone and myself because the battle is not finished yet......

exactly the same as my wife and me . Good luck `ebi`,keep us updated.

I am sending everything tomorrow . Will keep everyone `in the Loop`. lets make some pressure on HO by sending as much DUAL citizens applications as possible (this is already happens I suspect) . It would be illogical if they refuse all of them and ALL THESE PEOPLE WILL GO TO COURT ... and there is hundreds or even thousands? of us .

The other thing is : if we are covered under new february DRAFT AGREEMENT Artcle 21 (Lounes case) they can`t refuse PR to us anymore .

Anybody can confirm please if Dual British/EU are covered under Draft agreement ? I can not find where it is clearly saying something about Dual citizens , but it is does mentions Article 21..
or this is just my fantasies ?

[chaoscontrol]

ebi let us know that please :
reynaldogr` asking :

1.@ebi, did you mention in your application that your spouse was British in the section (can not remeber which page) and if your sponsor has any other nationality ?

2.Did you refer to the Lounes case in your application through a cover letter and printed and included a copy of the EJC full judgment in Lounes ?

Thank you .

[ebi]

EEA (PR)
2.9 Current nationality is EU country where your sponsor came from
2.10 yes
2.11 British from(ddmmyyyy? to Present
3.2 Tick the first and complete section 11.
+
I am applying for Permanent Residence Card with reference Toufik Lounes judgment of CJEU at 14/11/2017 Luxemburg
......and i also attached the Judgment

[reynaldogr]

EEA (PR)
2.9 Current nationality is EU country where your sponsor came from
2.10 yes
2.11 British from(ddmmyyyy? to Present
3.2 Tick the first and complete section 11.
+
I am applying for Permanent Residence Card with reference Toufik Lounes judgment of CJEU at 14/11/2017 Luxemburg
......and i also attached the Judgment

Many thanks Ebi. All the best of luck. Pls, keep us in the loop on any progress
Br

[ebi]

Application sent : 19/03/2018
HO received the Application 20/03/2018
Payment taken: 21/03/2018
Email confirmation: 26/03/2018
Biometric letter: 28/03/2018 dated 23rd
Biometric enrolled: 28/03/2018
C.O.A received:
PR Card:

[Unluckyeea2]

ebi thank you for updates and good luck , hope good news for all of us .what kind of evidence for living together like council tax bill , utility bills ,mobile phone bills TV license bill,bank state ment to same address with sponser did you send please we need you help .We don't have joint bank accounts and utility bills only council tax in joint name ,we wanted make joint bank account but once applying for credit in bank they said better individual account for credit history then didn't open joint accounts .Thank you ebi

[chaoscontrol]

ebi thank you for updates and good luck , hope good news for all of us .what kind of evidence for living together like council tax bill , utility bills ,mobile phone bills TV license bill,bank state ment to same address with sponser did you send please we need you help .We don't have joint bank accounts and utility bills only council tax in joint name ,we wanted make joint bank account but once applying for credit in bank they said better individual account for credit history then didn't open joint accounts .Thank you ebi

think as long as you send same address letters or bank statements ,tenancy agreements or whatewer letters..for the same period of time for both of your names (even on separate names) it should be confirming that you been living at the same address together.

[ebi]

Hello guys
A quick question as I have been asked my prof of work at work today even my RC renewal date is around mid of April.
how can i satisfy my employer that i have legal entitlement to work in the uk while my application is pending in the home office.

"Under section 3C of the Immigration Act 1971 where, before the expiry of a current visa, an individual makes an application for a new visa, they will retain the right to live and work in the UK under the terms of their previous visa, as long as the new application has not been decided by the Home Office, has been withdrawn or an appeal against a refusal is outstanding."

[silverman123]

Hi @ebi.
First thanks for your updates

From what i know that the home office will send you confirmation letter it allows you to work so you should have received it or you will receive it soon until the Home Office takes the decision.
So you will need the pass this letter to your employer.

[Unluckyeea2]

Hi everyone !
Thanks to all for updates .
@ chaoscontol thank you for response , what supporting documents did you send with you application please update .
@ ebi you just send your application for PR and maintime you employer asked you about your right to work at your work place ? Are you starting new job or same workplace where you are working your employer should have your documents records and there is a some system for employers to check online employees right to work but I have not enough information only heart about it . In my thoughts Silver123 is right and everything should be fine . Thanks . Keep updates please friends .

[kam999]

HI All,

I was a silent reader and I had nothing to add (as you guys were doing a good job) so kept quiet. However, I just came across this reply from HO in regards to Lounes decision implementation when someone asked about it. They say:

"I can confirm that updated guidance on this subject does not yet exist. The Court of
Justice of the European Union’s (CJEU) decision in Lounes (C- 165/16) was passed down
on 14 November 2017. This is a significant judgment which will alter the we way process
applications that fall under this category, with the effect that a dual UK/EU citizen may now
seek to sponsor a non-EU family member’s application for a residence documentation
post-naturalisation.

We are currently considering our response to the judgment and envisage amending the
Immigration (European Economic Area) Regulations 2016 to implement the judgment as
soon as practicable, which we expect will be in the early part of this year. In the interim, no
decision will be taken on cases in which the sponsor has declared dual citizenship until we
have agreed the way forward and such cases have been put on hold to ensure that we are
in compliance with a binding judgment from the CJEU."

There is hope after all, not too sure how will they see cases like PR card applications as Lounes was under derivative right and not derived right of residence. Good luck to all of you.

[silverman123]

Hi @kim999

Yeah that's true i have seen home office reply on the 6 of April about lounes decision somewhere online.
And thanks anyway for your updates.

Lounes wife has exercised her treaty rights in UK BEFORE she became a British citizen and this was the whole ARGUMENT so she can not be treated Like MACARTHY Who never exercised her treaty rights.

So they must amend the regulations 2016 for lounes route as they still in the EU and they already mentioned this in their letter I have seen.


And please everyone PAY ATTENTION to what the judge said in lounes case.

Third national covered under TFEU ARTICLE 21
PLUS
This right must be "on conditions which MUST NOT BE STRICTER THAN THOSE WHO PROVIDED BY THE DIRECTIVE 2004/38 for the grant of such a right to a third-country national who is a family member of a Union citizen who HAS EXERCISED his right of freedom of movement by settling in a Member State other than the Member State of which he is a national".
SO in my view point every will be able to make applications for RC and PR coverd by lounes
AS LONG AS THEY EXERCISED THEIR TREATY RIGHTS BEFORE NATURALISATION.
Thanks

[reynaldogr]

I’ve received this respond from the HO today:

Thank you for your letter of 21 February about the implementation by the Home Office of the Toufik Lounes v Secretary of State for the Home Department (C-165/16) judgment that was promulgated by the Court of Justice of the European Union (CJEU) on 14 November 2017.

I can confirm that the Home Office is aware of the case of Lounes.

The CJEU’s decision in Lounes is a significant judgment which will alter the we way process applications that fall under this category, with the effect that a dual UK and European Union (EU) citizen may now seek to sponsor a non-EU family member’s application for a residence documentation post-naturalisation.

We are currently considering our response to the judgment and envisage amending the Immigration (European Economic Area) Regulations 2016 to implement the judgment as soon as practicable, which we expect will be in the middle of this year. In the interim, no
decision will be taken on cases in which the sponsor has declared dual citizenship until we have agreed the way forward and such cases have been put on hold to ensure that we are in compliance with a binding judgment from the CJEU.

The Home Office does not provide immigration advice. If you are not a UK citizen and need advice on your individual circumstances, you should contact an Immigration Advisor registered with the Office of the Immigration Services

[ebi]

Application sent : 19/03/2018
HO received the Application 20/03/2018
Payment taken: 21/03/2018
Email confirmation: 26/03/2018
Biometric letter: 28/03/2018 dated 23/03
Biometric enrolled: 28/03/2018
C.O.A received with work permit: 7/04 dated 04/04
PR Card: waiting

[Unluckyeea2]

Hi everyone .Thanks to all for updates .
@reynaldogr it been nearly half year Lounes judgement delivered by ECJ and they are holding similar Lounes cases and Brexit is on the corner .Are they waiting Brexit date ? Make sure forward the letter about holding cases to European commission and ECJ . All affected people write to European commission and ECJ that they hasn't implemented Lounes judgement and put on hold similar cases .
@Salu it been more than 2 months still no news ?
@ebi thank you for update please keep update
@Kam99 when did you apply for PR any updates ?
Thanks to all.

[salu]

No news from me. Had been hopeful the brown envelope would arrive this week, with no luck.
After reading posts Kim999 and reynaldogr, it looks like the wait might be long.
Funny how in the one Kim999 posted it says they are expecting to make amendments to regulations in the first part of the year, while in HO's reynaldogr they say they expect this to be in the middle of this year...
I didn't want to ask for my documents back, hoping they would process the application quickly (whatever the outcome), though if this is the situation, I probably will.
My current family permit expires in early June, does anyone know if a CoA letter would suffice to get back in the country with an expired family permit?
Similarly, and probably more important, are employers supposed to accept CoA after current permit expires? What if they take more than 6 months? I'm already getting reminder emails from HR asking for new visa...

Patience and good luck to all!

[kam999]

Hi guys,
I sent my app last week didn't mention lounes. Did not have much gap between eu national acquiring british/ dual citizenship and non eea family member completing 5 years (none eea FM completed 5 years after one week eu national acquired british citizenship, a genuine mistake, lack of info on their page and of course we were unaware of the rules). However, gap is there and the law goes in case workers favour. Hence lounes is the last and only hope.
One thing I could not understand that the letter I posted early (HO reply) it says when eu-british dual national declare they acquire british nationality. Does it mean that if someone does not declare they won't bother checking it? I did mention it though.
Good luck to all of you.

[silverman123]

Hi@kim999
Once again in simple words
Home office tried to put all dual nationality in ONE basket. But ECJ FINISHED THIS PROBLEM.

EU citizen who never exercised their treaty rights in UK but they holding dual nationality Macarthy will apply.
EU CITIZEN WHO EXERCISED THEIR TREATY RIGHTS IN UK AND APPLIED FOR PERMANENT RESIDENCE THEN NATURALISED LOUNES WILL APPLY
AND THEY WILL HAVE THE RIGHT TO CARRY ON THEIR LIVES AS NORMAL WITH THEIR FAMILIES.
So don't worry about Gaps because simply won't effect you anymore.
Finger cross everything you will be ok.
And I'm pretty sure the HO will implement very soon in may it's likely to happen.

[chaoscontrol]

I have no doubt anymore that HO will implement Lounes sooner or later (I got the same answer on Friday through MP like reynaldogr and other guy mentioned in there) ,

The main question and problem now is :

They going to implement Lounes in the way of giving DERIVATIVE right to all us instead of Permanent residence . If they going to do that , then again people will seek help in Courts , as this will be NOT what Lounes` judgement saying :

The third-country national is however eligible for a derived right of residence under Article 21(1) TFEU, on conditions which must not be stricter than those provided for by Directive 2004/38 for the grant of such a right to a third-country national who is a family member of a Union citizen who has exercised his right of freedom of movement by settling in a Member State other than the Member State of which he is a national.

What do you think about that guys ? Can HO implement Lounes in that way and we are still going to be loosers ?

[silverman123]

Hi@choascontrol.
Well I had the same way of thinking sometimes about what of the HO will implement Lounes by meaning of (residence card only)
1.The fact is that the European Court of justice has ended this questions by saying EU who has exercised their treaty rights can carry on their life with their families.
2. EEA DEFINITION REGULATIONS 2
Means EEA NATIONS EXPECT BRITISH CITIZEN
And MACARTHY APPLIED
simply this definition wasn't clear because macarthy hasn't exercised her treaty rights
So this wasn't the last word for EEA REGULATIONS 2016.
BECAUSE LOUNES CAME UP WITH Different rules to those EU who exercised their treaty rights they have more rights and covered under TFEU article 21 plus the equality of right of residence who provided by the directive 2004/38.
So in my opinion the HO can't rely on EEA REGULATION 2 because simply it won't make any sense because we will get back to the same point which is that our spouse exercised his/her treaty rights in uk before naturalised
Unless if you didn't exercise your treaty rights so in this case macarthy will apply.
Guys can you please share your opinions?

[silverman123]

And here is a case and I'm sure all of us know it.
]
https://tribunalsdecisions.service.gov. ... 00105-2016

Can you please READ PART 9 AND 10
It's says clearly EEA REGULATION DID NOT HELP THE HOME OFFICE ANYMORE BECAUSE THE EVENTS HAD PROVED OTHERWISE. ( lounes judgment)
so do you guys think that the HO still want to go to court!!!!????
The Law in our sides