EU & Brexit Deal

[Obie]

At least you can be rest assured that Mrs May will not use you as her sacrificial lamb, to help her plummeting approval rating, but for your family, I think the Jury is still out.

[Salem]

At least you can be rest assured that Mrs May will not use you as her sacrificial lamb, to plummeting approval rating, but for your family, I think the Jury is still out.

Yes, we have in until November to see what transpires. But the requirements for settled seem to be the same as for PR, allegedly going to be a bit less stringent in paperwork/evidence, so as it currently stands, i don't see an issue. If say, the final agreement was anyone who had PR automatically got 'settled', just a straight swap, then we would apply and do it, it would worthwhile. My wife automatically gains PR in November anyway.

Though that's all under EU Law, and no one knows for sure what's going to happen yet.

We also have a one year old daughter, although she has already got a British Passport using my UK Passport to do so.

[JAJ]

CTA has no meaning in law, it has no legal effect whatsoever, and it is not founded in any statutory instrument.

Irish national's have rights in the UK by virtue of the Ireland Act 1949, which requires that Irish nationals will not be treated as a Foreign nationals in the UK.

The Ireland Act 1949 ensured that the Republic of Ireland would continue to be treated as a Commonwealth country (for most purposes) after its departure from the Commonwealth in April 1949. At the time, this entailed an exemption from immigration control. However, as RichardW and others note,since 1962, having a similar constitutional status to Australians, Canadians and others does not in itself give any significant immigration benefits.

The CTA is based, on the U.K. side, primarily on section 1(3) of the Immigration Act 1971 and supporting paragraphs of the Immigration Rules + practices over the last 40 or so years. It is similarly administered on the Irish side. The status of Irish citizens in the United Kingdom and British citizens in Ireland is founded primarily upon secondary legislation and immigration practice. It would be straightforward for either government to alter these arrangements if so inclined.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... l-area-cta
http://researchbriefings.files.parliame ... P-7661.pdf

Most provisions of the Immigration Act 1971 came into effect on 1.1.1973- coinciding with the overlay of EEC/EU/EEA law/practice- and as a result, neither government has likely thought as much about the immigration provisions of the CTA as would have been the case if neither country had joined the EEC/EU. While the British withdrawal from the EU does not in itself impact these arrangements, there is at least a risk of some change over the medium to long term. It may not take the form of an outright restriction on immigration but instead the form of gradual reductions in rights to social benefits- similar to what Australia has imposed on New Zealand citizens since 2001.

[Wanderer]

CTA has no meaning in law, it has no legal effect whatsoever, and it is not founded in any statutory instrument.

Irish national's have rights in the UK by virtue of the Ireland Act 1949, which requires that Irish nationals will not be treated as a Foreign nationals in the UK.

To give effect to that, the UK government puts all these procedures in place.

Did a bit of reading about this a while back it's true, the CTA isn't binding. However the history of it goes back to The Aliens Act 1905 (and as amended) and probably as far back as 1171 when the English first created the Lordship of Ireland.

The Irish have been under English and British rule in one form or another from then arguably until 1949 and certainly 1922, ties bind....

Ironically the 1905 act was designed to keep undesirables out of Britain and Ireland (Russian emigre Jews mainly) and it's ironic now that Brexiters use the same excuse as one of the main drivers for leaving the EU.

Be a brave politician/government that tries to tinker with the CTA, legal standing or not, it's ingrained into our cultures. When I was growing up in the 60's the UK was full of Irish - one never considered them as foreigners. Don't get me wrong, there was no love lost, I still remember the local pub sign in it's window;

No Blacks, no Irish.

Thankfully we've all moved on from then. Odd though that the CTA may end up as the open door in the Brexiters' dream closed-border wall.....

[Amo2012]

hi,

this new information on 'settled status' is very confusing........I have recently applied for PR (in June) under SS route, got only the original passports back, not sure how are they gonna deal with the PR cases applied after 29th March 2017 or the cases under their consideration yet?

would be thankful if anyone can help on the questions below:

1)if HO issues PR, do we need to apply again for the 'settled status'?
2)can i apply for naturalization sooner after receiving the PR on the bases of British partner (not married but durable relationship)?

many thanks,

[Obie]

Don't have me on Wanderer, the History of the British and the Irish clearly does not make an interesting reading, and i certainly does not want to go there on this Summer evening. I lived in Ireland for a long period, and when i speak English to the locals, i see the way the look at me, and i do have to reiterate that I may speak like a person from great Britain, but certainly have deep sympathy for the Irish and their History with the British.

Now i shall proceed with the Ireland Act 1949. It is the British government's position that its scope far exceeds ensuring Ireland is treated as a member of the British dominion.

The acts proceeds on the basis that Ireland will cease from being a commonwealth country. It makes clear that notwithstanding this fact, Ireland should not be treated as a foreign country.

I believe it is arguable in a court of law, that if you don't treat a nation as a foreign country, then it should equally apply to its citizens, mutatis mutandis.

By virtue of that, it will be hard for Irish nationals to be subject to the 1971 Act.

You can't on the one hand say Ireland cease from being Eire, should not be treated as a foreign country in any UK legislation, and then say, it citizens are foreign national. That will be inconsistent with the Act.

I accept the CTA is covered in section 1(3), it does not give the citizens of those area any rights per sa.

I am of the view that the 1949 Act is indeed a source of authority , which provides rights for Irish citizens in the UK.

No separate Act is needed. Even if there were, the 1981 Act for nationality and the 1971 Act, confers a significant power on the Secretary of State, and will enable them to allow Irish Citizens in and out.

[JAJ]

The acts proceeds on the basis that Ireland will cease from being a commonwealth country. It makes clear that notwithstanding this fact, Ireland should not be treated as a foreign country.

I believe it is arguable in a court of law, that if you don't treat a nation as a foreign country, then it should equally apply to its citizens, mutatis mutandis.

By virtue of that, it will be hard for Irish nationals to be subject to the 1971 Act.

You can't on the one hand say Ireland cease from being Eire, should not be treated as a foreign country in any UK legislation, and then say, it citizens are foreign national. That will be inconsistent with the Act.

Except that United Kingdom immigration controls do apply to "non-foreign" countries (Australia, Canada, etc.) as well as the British overseas territories. Ireland's "non-foreign" status would not in itself prevent immigration control from being applied if the Government and Parliament wished to do so. The land frontier is a more significant reason for special status.

[JAJ]

this new information on 'settled status' is very confusing........I have recently applied for PR (in June) under SS route, got only the original passports back, not sure how are they gonna deal with the PR cases applied after 29th March 2017 or the cases under their consideration yet?

Current laws remain in place for now and will be used to consider applications for PR.

1)if HO issues PR, do we need to apply again for the 'settled status'?
2)can i apply for naturalization sooner after receiving the PR on the bases of British partner (not married but durable relationship)?

1. Current proposal is that holders of PR will need to apply for settled status- but it is possible that settled status will be given automatically. Depends on legislation and negotiations with the EU.

2. You can't apply for naturalisation as a spouse unless you are legally married to or in a civil partnership with a British citizen. You need to meet the requirements for naturalisation independently.

[Salem]

this new information on 'settled status' is very confusing........I have recently applied for PR (in June) under SS route, got only the original passports back, not sure how are they gonna deal with the PR cases applied after 29th March 2017 or the cases under their consideration yet?

Current laws remain in place for now and will be used to consider applications for PR.

1)if HO issues PR, do we need to apply again for the 'settled status'?
2)can i apply for naturalization sooner after receiving the PR on the bases of British partner (not married but durable relationship)?

1. Current proposal is that holders of PR will need to apply for settled status- but it is possible that settled status will be given automatically. Depends on legislation and negotiations with the EU.

2. You can't apply for naturalisation as a spouse unless you are legally married to or in a civil partnership with a British citizen. You need to meet the requirements for naturalisation independently.

Yes, the more i have thought about Secret Simon's response to me above, i now think we will apply for PR anyway, not wait until the process of being 'settled' is started.

It just gives us more options if required, and as you say, after the negotiation, it could end up being agreed that PR gives 'Settled' automatically anyway. I think/hope PR would give us more 'security' either way, but who knows as yet.

We go on a overseas holiday in Jan, which i don't want to take a chance of submitting passports in Nov, and apply for them back, especially with Xmas. We are back in the first week of Feb, so i will have the application completed and ready to be sent on the day of our return with Passports. That way it is still under EU Law, and my dual nationality is fine, as under the Transitional provision. It's 14 months before Offical Brexit leave date, so should have it well back by then, and know better where we stand legally.

PR or 'Settled' would still be fine for us, we'd only got for UK Citizenship if we had too. Money, and 'Life in the UK' test etc, just extra hassle we could avoid if possible.

[JAJ]

It just gives us more options if required, and as you say, after the negotiation, it could end up being agreed that PR gives 'Settled' automatically anyway. I think/hope PR would give us more 'security' either way, but who knows as yet.

We go on a overseas holiday in Jan, which i don't want to take a chance of submitting passports in Nov, and apply for them back, especially with Xmas. We are back in the first week of Feb, so i will have the application completed and ready to be sent on the day of our return with Passports. That way it is still under EU Law, and my dual nationality is fine, as under the Transitional provision. It's 14 months before Offical Brexit leave date, so should have it well back by then, and know better where we stand legally.

Some issues to consider:
1. It's not clear that the online service/European Passport Return Service could apply in this to this kind of application but keep in touch with developments between now and the end of the year: https://visas-immigration.service.gov.uk/product/eea-pr
2. You may wish to consider applying for an Irish passport card as an additional travel document (EEA/Switzerland only): https://www.dfa.ie/passportcard/
3. It would be recommended to document your child's Irish citizenship if you've not already done so. Also- child may hold (or be entitled to hold) your wife's current nationality.

PR or 'Settled' would still be fine for us, we'd only got for UK Citizenship if we had too. Money, and 'Life in the UK' test etc, just extra hassle we could avoid if possible.

It would be strongly recommended to take out British citizenship as security for the long term- unless there is some specific reason for not doing so. Example- if your wife's home country forbids dual citizenship and she would prefer to hold on to that citizenship. If you're resident in Northern Ireland there is also likely the option to take out Irish citizenship.

[Salem]

It just gives us more options if required, and as you say, after the negotiation, it could end up being agreed that PR gives 'Settled' automatically anyway. I think/hope PR would give us more 'security' either way, but who knows as yet.

We go on a overseas holiday in Jan, which i don't want to take a chance of submitting passports in Nov, and apply for them back, especially with Xmas. We are back in the first week of Feb, so i will have the application completed and ready to be sent on the day of our return with Passports. That way it is still under EU Law, and my dual nationality is fine, as under the Transitional provision. It's 14 months before Offical Brexit leave date, so should have it well back by then, and know better where we stand legally.

Some issues to consider:
1. It's not clear that the online service/European Passport Return Service could apply in this to this kind of application but keep in touch with developments between now and the end of the year: https://visas-immigration.service.gov.uk/product/eea-pr
2. You may wish to consider applying for an Irish passport card as an additional travel document (EEA/Switzerland only): https://www.dfa.ie/passportcard/
3. It would be recommended to document your child's Irish citizenship if you've not already done so. Also- child may hold (or be entitled to hold) your wife's current nationality.

PR or 'Settled' would still be fine for us, we'd only got for UK Citizenship if we had too. Money, and 'Life in the UK' test etc, just extra hassle we could avoid if possible.

It would be strongly recommended to take out British citizenship as security for the long term- unless there is some specific reason for not doing so. Example- if your wife's home country forbids dual citizenship and she would prefer to hold on to that citizenship. If you're resident in Northern Ireland there is also likely the option to take out Irish citizenship.

Thanks for your input.

For the return of Passports, yes, i'm not going to take a chance. Our holiday is booked for January, so although my non EU wife has her 5 years up in late Nov, i'm not going to apply until we come back, first week in Feb, her RC is valid until March. I will have the application all done, ready to be posted, so when we come back from holiday, i will just add our Passports, then post it off, wait until we get it back with hopefully the PR. No need to ask for any passports back before then.

As above, I don't think I've any need to for the Irish Passport Card, as would still have my UK Passport, and wouldn't be going anywhere outside of the UK without my wife anyway. We both have UK driving licences, for domestic flights if needed. But once we apply for PR in Feb, we'll be just back from 4 weeks in Thailand, so won't be going away again for a while, so can wait on the return of Passports with decision.

My daughter has a UK Passport, i'm aware i can also get her an Irish one, and also a Thai, as her mother is a Thai national, so in effect she could have 3! I haven't applied for her Irish one, as didn't think there was any point at present. Could you elaborate in why you think this would be a good idea in our situation please?

We live in London, my wife has always lived with me in London since being in the UK. So i have did a little research into an Irish Passport for her, but couldn't see how we could get one. As for taking out British Citizenship, i fully take on board the 'security' point that both yourself and Secret Simon has mentioned. She definitely would be fine with it and her Thai Passport, it was just the cost involved, though moreso the 'Life in the UK' test. I'm born and raised in the UK and have difficulty passing it!! My wife's English language skills are good, getting that certificate would be no problem, but the LITUK test is putting her off, she would prefer just to know she can stay 'forever', without trying to do it. Though of course it's handy for travel etc, we got to Tenerife etc easily on my Irish Passport and her UK RC, which would stop.
If we could avoid it and know 100% she could stay in the UK forever, that would be fine, but the more i have read and thought about things tonight, it might have to be an option, and enrol her on a course to help her pass it or something.

[JAJ]

My daughter has a UK Passport, i'm aware i can also get her an Irish one, and also a Thai, as her mother is a Thai national, so in effect she could have 3! I haven't applied for her Irish one, as didn't think there was any point at present. Could you elaborate in why you think this would be a good idea in our situation please?

In general- it is better to document a citizenship status early in life (and keep own records of the supporting evidence in case records are lost at government level). It can be difficult or impossible later on.

We live in London, my wife has always lived with me in London since being in the UK. So i have did a little research into an Irish Passport for her, but couldn't see how we could get one.

Since 2005, it is no longer possible to apply for Irish citizenship based solely on marriage. The only concessions to spouses of Irish citizens are: 1. Reduction in the normal residence requirement from 5 to 3 years, and 2. Residence in Northern Ireland counts the same as in the Republic of Ireland. Certain conditions must be fulfilled in order for these concessions to apply.

As for taking out British Citizenship, i fully take on board the 'security' point that both yourself and Secret Simon has mentioned. She definitely would be fine with it and her Thai Passport, it was just the cost involved, though moreso the 'Life in the UK' test. I'm born and raised in the UK and have difficulty passing it!! My wife's English language skills are good, getting that certificate would be no problem, but the LITUK test is putting her off, she would prefer just to know she can stay 'forever', without trying to do it. Though of course it's handy for travel etc, we got to Tenerife etc easily on my Irish Passport and her UK RC, which would stop.
If we could avoid it and know 100% she could stay in the UK forever, that would be fine, but the more i have read and thought about things tonight, it might have to be an option, and enrol her on a course to help her pass it or something.

British citizenship entails more security than ILR/PR/settled status. She should also research whether or not she would keep her Thai citizenship upon becoming British (if this is important).

[Salem]

My daughter has a UK Passport, i'm aware i can also get her an Irish one, and also a Thai, as her mother is a Thai national, so in effect she could have 3! I haven't applied for her Irish one, as didn't think there was any point at present. Could you elaborate in why you think this would be a good idea in our situation please?

In general- it is better to document a citizenship status early in life (and keep own records of the supporting evidence in case records are lost at government level). It can be difficult or impossible later on.

We live in London, my wife has always lived with me in London since being in the UK. So i have did a little research into an Irish Passport for her, but couldn't see how we could get one.

Since 2005, it is no longer possible to apply for Irish citizenship based solely on marriage. The only concessions to spouses of Irish citizens are: 1. Reduction in the normal residence requirement from 5 to 3 years, and 2. Residence in Northern Ireland counts the same as in the Republic of Ireland. Certain conditions must be fulfilled in order for these concessions to apply.

As for taking out British Citizenship, i fully take on board the 'security' point that both yourself and Secret Simon has mentioned. She definitely would be fine with it and her Thai Passport, it was just the cost involved, though moreso the 'Life in the UK' test. I'm born and raised in the UK and have difficulty passing it!! My wife's English language skills are good, getting that certificate would be no problem, but the LITUK test is putting her off, she would prefer just to know she can stay 'forever', without trying to do it. Though of course it's handy for travel etc, we got to Tenerife etc easily on my Irish Passport and her UK RC, which would stop.
If we could avoid it and know 100% she could stay in the UK forever, that would be fine, but the more i have read and thought about things tonight, it might have to be an option, and enrol her on a course to help her pass it or something.

British citizenship entails more security than ILR/PR/settled status. She should also research whether or not she would keep her Thai citizenship upon becoming British (if this is important).

Yea, I sent for the Child Irish Passport forms last night via the London Passport Office at Cromwell Street (what a name/place for it, but that's for another discussion lol). It would just be easier to travel in Europe if nothing else, where only my wife would have to get a Schengen Visa. Ill always have my Irish Passport and both our Birth Certs, so will always have the evidence, just better to get it and be done.

As I thought, getting Irish Citizenship for my wife would not be possible in our situation.

And yes, as mentioned, as soon we can come back in early Feb, I will post the PR application off. Having again looked at and checked the Government document released on Monday, it clearly states that until the UK leave the EU, the same EU rules will apply, so even though they also say in that document there is no need to apply for PR now, as 'Settled' status will be what's needed instead, we still will, as I will still benefit from the Transitional provisions, PR will be granted as we meet all the requirements, then we have the option to apply for UK Passport once the Life In the UK Test and required English language qualifications are acquired. That might even be able to be acquired while the application for PR is in, as my wife has a UK driving licence, and I would keep scanned copied of the passports. But if originals were needed to do so, she could still get competent in what is required, then do the tests as soon as we get the Passports back.

We know many Thai's who have dual nationality, not seen as a problem at all.

So glad I logged on here yesterday and got better advice relevant to our situation, great wee site.

[Richard W]

The acts proceeds on the basis that Ireland will cease from being a commonwealth country. It makes clear that notwithstanding this fact, Ireland should not be treated as a foreign country.

I believe it is arguable in a court of law, that if you don't treat a nation as a foreign country, then it should equally apply to its citizens, mutatis mutandis.

By virtue of that, it will be hard for Irish nationals to be subject to the 1971 Act.

The UK had plenty of practice subjecting its own citizens - citizens of the United Kingdom and Colonies - to the 1971 Act, most notably the Kenyan Asians.

So far, the UK Government has found it too much bother to inquire as to where Irish citizens entered the United Kingdom from. However, the concept of a 'qualifying CTA entitlement' (BNA Sections 50A(4)(d) and 50A(5) makes that distinction, as was acknowledged in debates in Parliament when the concept was made part of statue law.

[rerdos]

I've been thinking on the Brexit deal and I have a bad feeling about this.

As we all know Document Certifying Permanent Residence costs £65, which is already way too high for some EU citizens. In the document itself it says 'The UK intends to set fees at a reasonable level'. The question is what is 'reasonable level' for them?

Even those who already have Document Certifying Permanent Residence will need to reapply and pay the -currently unknown- fees.

My guess that they will set it really high, like £2000 (and they could say it's still cheaper than ILR) and then most of the 3 million EU citizen would leave the country as that price would be way too high for them to pay just to stay here, and by doing so the government would make them to leave the country.

Who else thinks the same?

[Richard W]

The UK government's offer on the rights of EU citizens living in the UK

I see nothing there even for permanent residents who do not at the time have a connection to an eligible EEA national. The one consolation - possibly a big one - is that it seems to allow British citizens who hold another EU nationality to be treated as EU citizens. Those third country nationals whose residence rights depend on Surinder Singh or even a departed EU citizen seem set to lose them! Have I missed something?

I also see no mention of the special status of Turks under the Turkish EC Association Agreement.

[Mariochi81]

Hi Everyone,
Theresa may announced that comprehensive medical insurance will no longer be required for self sufficient and students, does this mean any student or selfsufficient applying NOW for PR will not require medical insurance? Or is this still a requierement?
Thanks for kind replies.

[alterhase58]

What was published by the government is a negotiating position, it does not have the force of law. As I understand it the rules carry on as long as the UK is part of the EU.

[Obie]

Hi Everyone,
Theresa may announced that comprehensive medical insurance will no longer be required for self sufficient and students, does this mean any student or selfsufficient applying NOW for PR will not require medical insurance? Or is this still a requierement?
Thanks for kind replies.

My Understanding is that MRs May blamed the EU for comprehensive sickness insurance.

Said they were responsible for it and that she will remove it. Her short memory has forgotten that EU law permits to make favourable provision.

This woman is so obsessed with a hard and destructive brexit, that she has lost all her sense of rationality and logical thinking.

[rooibos]

We're all wasting time here. Come September she'll be gone and replaced by either Boris or Gove. The negotiations are just a farce and the EU representatives are being taken the pish of.

[Obie]

That will make a bad situation worst. Johnson and Gove will make UK implode. I read on the paper that they were talking about lifting 1 % cap, but these 2 individuals have never had any interest and concern for working people.
Now they are in campaign mode. Never had the interest of working at heart. Wolves in sheep's clothing.

[Daniann]

The UK government's offer on the rights of EU citizens living in the UK

Quick headlines
- Rights will be codified in the Withdrawal Agreement, which will be public international law, not EU law. CJEU jurisdiction will end.
- Offer is for ILR under the Immigration Act 1971 as expected.
- Application required, not automatic status. EU citizens will also require documentation to prove right to reside in the UK.
- CSI will not be a requirement in these applications.

• family dependants who join a qualifying EU citizen in the UK before the UK’s exit will be able to apply for settled status after five years (including where the five years falls after our exit), irrespective of the specified date. Those joining after our exit will be subject to the same rules as those joining British citizens or alternatively to the postexit immigration arrangements for EU citizens who arrive after the specified date;
• the specified date will be no earlier than the 29 March 2017, the date the formal Article 50 process for exiting the EU was triggered, and no later than the date of the UK’s withdrawal from the EU. We expect to discuss the specified date with our European partners as part of delivering a reciprocal dea

29. Family members6 of eligible EU citizens (who can be either EU citizens or non-EU nationals) who are resident in the UK before we leave the EU will also be eligible to apply for settled status, provided that they too meet the criteria above and have been in a genuine relationship with an eligible EU citizen while resident in the UK.

Genuine relationship is not required at the moment.

30. Future family members of those EU citizens who arrived before the specified date – for example a future spouse – who come to the UK after we leave the EU, will be subject to the same rules that apply to non-EU nationals joining British citizens, or alternatively to the postexit immigration arrangements for EU citizens who arrive after the specified date.

This will likely be a flashpoint in the negotiations.

39. After our departure, it will become mandatory to apply for permission to stay in the UK.

58. The arrangements set out above will be enshrined in UK law and enforceable through the UK judicial system, up to and including the Supreme Court. We are also ready to make commitments in the Withdrawal Agreement which will have the status of international law. The Court of Justice of the European Union (CJEU) will not have jurisdiction in the UK.

Hi
We didn't hear from EU any feedback regarding Mrs May offer ?
Is that mean they accept the offer ?

[alterhase58]

Hi
We didn't hear from EU any feedback regarding Mrs May offer ?
Is that mean they accept the offer ?

This is all subject to negotiations which haven't started yet I suspect.
EU have already voiced reservations - nothing is decided or agreed.
Also this isn't really an offer in my view ....

[JAJ]

This negotiation between the United Kingdom and the EU will likely take months- not days or weeks.

[Salem]

This negotiation between the United Kingdom and the EU will likely take months- not days or weeks.

Being reported on Monday's papers, that the EU have rejected May's 'damp squid' offer.

Just seen it on Sky's Press Review.