Child born in Egypt to British father

[WasimAslam]

Hi,

I am in a situation and hoping I can get some help here. I appreciate this may have been discussed previously but I believe my case may be slightly different.

I am a British Citizen currently living between UK and Egypt but mostly Egypt over the last 4 years. I got married to an Egyptian wife and we are expecting our first child in Feb 18 and just wanted to get organized in terms of documents for the babies’ nationality once he/she arrives. However I have just discovered that it’s not a straight forward case of me automatically passing on my British Citizenship to my children born abroad.

I was born in Pakistan (1978) and aged 6 months travelled to the UK on my Mothers passport as a minor and as far as my parents can remember I was never naturalized nor registered as a British citizen. This is strange as my older brothers who also travelled on my mothers passport as minors were registered in 1984 and I am told it wasn’t required for me! I have called the nationality department and without taking any real details I was told by the guy I spoke to that I am British by descent and I would need form MN1 for a child born abroad. How can I know for sure which category I belong to?

I am really not sure how the MN1 application process would work in my case because I am currently in Egypt and my wife wants to give birth here because she is more comfortable with her own doctors. She holds a 10-year family visitor visa (Not a huge cost difference between 5 and 10 years) so she has no problem travelling to the UK. I was planning to return to the UK in approximately 3 years to settle with my wife (spouse visa route) and child. Or should I be looking at completely different options?

Basically I would really appreciate any tips/help as to what I can do to be best prepared before the baby arrives …and apologies if I come across as confused but this is really something that I have never had to consider before. The complex immigration rules/laws in the UK don’t make life easy! You can PM me if thats an option.

Thanks

Wasim

[CR001]

I am currently in Egypt and my wife wants to give birth here because she is more comfortable with her own doctors. She holds a 10-year family visitor visa (Not a huge cost difference between 5 and 10 years) so she has no problem travelling to the UK. I was planning to return to the UK in approximately 3 years to settle with my wife (spouse visa route) and child.

Assuming you mean your wife wants to have the baby in the UK? She will have to pay the for the birth at 150% cost, which for a normal uncomplicated birth is around £3,000.

If you are British by descent (you don't state your parents nationality), then any child born in the UK is automatically British.

[WasimAslam]

HI thanks for the reply Cr001,
No we intend to give birth in Egypt...

Also both my parents were British when I was born in Pakistan...

[Tea_Rocket]

I read it as his wife wants to give birth in Egypt, where she has established relationships with the doctors. WasimAslam, because you are British by descent, your child will not automatically be a British citizen if s/he is born in Egypt, unless you're in the Crown Service.

However, under certain circumstances, you may be able to register your child, under Section 3 of the British Nationality Act 1981. In particular, if you can prove

• that you're a UK citizen (do you have a UK passport?),
• that you lived in the UK for a period of three years prior to you child's birth,
  • that you didn't spend more than 270 days outside of the UK during that period,
• that one of your parents was a citizen of the UK otherwise than by descent at the time of your birth,

then you should be able to register your child under Section 3(2) of the British Nationality Act 1981.

[WasimAslam]

Thanks for your reply Tea_rocket..

Ok So I am British and hold a British passport and since the age of 6 months I have lived in UK and only started spending long periods of time in Egypt since I got married in 2012...so would it for example count if I was in the UK from Jan 2008 to Dec 2010 which is of course before the childs birth and having spent less then 270 day outside?? Or does it have to be the previous 3 years immediately from when the child is born/or application (MN1) is made?

And would the HO not know if I was outside of the UK through passport use etc...what I am trying to say is would that not be proof of me being inside the UK for any given period?

Also my father became a British citizen otherwise then by descent in 1975.

So based on the above all being well and good do I have a good case for registering my child as a British citizen and completing the registration from within Egypt? Or do I do this from the UK?

While I am here 1 last question please...I've been told here by a local not to apply for Egyptian Nationality for the child as this will help in getting the British nationality if the child has no nationality..have you every heard of such a thing?

Thanks in advance for your help.

[Tea_Rocket]

Ok So I am British and hold a British passport and since the age of 6 months I have lived in UK and only started spending long periods of time in Egypt since I got married in 2012...so would it for example count if I was in the UK from Jan 2008 to Dec 2010 which is of course before the childs birth and having spent less then 270 day outside?? Or does it have to be the previous 3 years immediately from when the child is born/or application (MN1) is made?

It's any 3 year period prior to your child's birth. Choose the one that's the easiest for you to prove.

And would the HO not know if I was outside of the UK through passport use etc...what I am trying to say is would that not be proof of me being inside the UK for any given period?

You could use school records, employment records, leases, etc. to show when you were in the UK. Passport stamps would show some of the time you spent outside and form MN1 asks you to submit a list of time spent outside the UK during the qualifying period.

Also my father became a British citizen otherwise then by descent in 1975.

So based on the above all being well and good do I have a good case for registering my child as a British citizen and completing the registration from within Egypt? Or do I do this from the UK?

Assuming you were born after 1975 (or after your father was naturalised in 1975), you should be fine. I don't think there is any requirement to submit your application from the UK.

While I am here 1 last question please...I've been told here by a local not to apply for Egyptian Nationality for the child as this will help in getting the British nationality if the child has no nationality..have you every heard of such a thing?

If your child is stateless (i.e., you choose not to register him or her as an Egyptian national), then you do not need to prove the three year qualifying period. However, the Home Office might challenge you on why your child is not an Egyptian citizen. If you can prove that you satisfy the three year requirement, I would do that and save yourself the potential trouble. If you do hold off on registering your child as an Egyptian national anyway, you can send a covering letter with the application explaining your child currently holds no nationality and thus satisfies the requirements to be registered as a citizen of the UK under Section 3(2) of the BNA 1981 based on your citizenship and that of your father alone, but that you are including evidence of your own residence in the UK anyway to strengthen the claim.

If you haven't already done so, it's worth reading both form MN1 and the accompanying guide cover to cover before you apply to register your child. The guide has a list of the documents you'll need to provide. Good luck!

[WasimAslam]

Hi Tea_Rocket

Firstly apologies for the delay in responding to your previous post, I wanted to just confirm my fathers Naturalisation/Registration before replying to you. Also not sure if you’re a professional or not but in any case your advise was very useful especially in putting my mind to rest!

So re my situation which is as follows;

• British Citizen and holding a British Passport. Can I just submit passport/copies…or do I get an official Nationality Status doc (£234) from the HO just to be safe?
• I lived in UK from age of 6 months so attended Nursery, Primary & Secondary Schools, College and University. I have also worked part time from the age of 16 until 23 before becoming self-employed. I can easily prove 3 years of having lived in the UK through pay slips etc.
• My father has a “Certificate of Registration As A Citizen Of The United Kingdom And Colonies” from March 1975. So a copy of this should be sufficient right? Or do I have should I get an official Nationality Status Doc as above?

I have seen the Certificate as a whatsapp image and noticed it has the Home Office Ref and certificate numbers but I couldn’t see the embossed stamp, which would make the document valid or invalid. This could be because of the age of the certificate. Should I ask my father to request a new copy on the grounds that its old or does it not matter if supplied with fathers passport copy???

In your previous post you mentioned i don't have to be inside the UK to make the MN1 application...Just in case you know...who would I submit the application and supporting docs to? I mean would it be the UK Consulate/Embassy in Egypt or..?

Sorry one last thing...Should i be registering documents like my civil marriage and the babies birth certificates with the British Consulate?

Once again I really appreciate your help and thank you in advance.

Wasim

[Tea_Rocket]

No problem, Wasim. It's very interesting helping you with this—I've learned a lot about registration and citizenship by descent (hence all the links).

Page 30 of the MN1 Guide says,

• Child’s birth certificate showing the parents’ names
• Parents’ marriage certificate (if the father is a British citizen)
• British parent’s birth certificate or passport*
• British grandparent’s birth certificate, registration or naturalisation certificate or passport*
• Grandparents’ marriage certificate
• Evidence of residence*
  • Section 3(2) – evidence that the British parent lived in the UK for a period of 3 years at some time before the child’s birth

*If you are required to send your parent’s or grandparent’s British passport and you are making your application by post you can send a complete and full copy of their current passport. Every page of the passport must be copied including any blank pages.

So based on that, I would say you need

• Your child's Egyptian birth certificate and an official English translation (some of the lawyers on the Home Office approved list have translation services).
• Your marriage certificate, with official English translation (if necessary—I don't know whether you two got married in Egypt or the UK or whether Egyptian official documents come in both Arabic and English).
• Your passport, or a full copy of it, per the instructions in the guide.
• Your father's passport, or a full copy of it, per the instructions in the guide.
• Your parents' marriage certificate (with translation, if necessary).
• Evidence of residence in the UK. It sounds like you have that covered. In addition to payslips, you should send any expired passports and travel bookings from covering that time (to establish when you were away on holiday and that this time did not exceed 270 days).

You might also consider sending a covering letter explaining that you are a UK citizen by descent through your father, who was naturalised as Citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies on [Date in 1975], with certificate number [Certificate number]. You might also want to mention that your child has not been registered as an Egyptian citizen, but that you are providing evidence of your three year qualifying period in the UK anyway.

This letter is optional, but it might help your application—at the very least, I can't see it doing any harm.

As for the rest of your queries:

Can I just submit passport/copies…or do I get an official Nationality Status doc (£234) from the HO just to be safe?

I don't think you need to bother with this. Your passport and your father's passport are proof enough of your citizenship (and his). If the Home Office want extra documents, they'll get in touch to ask for them. If they do, I suspect they'll ask for your father's naturalisation certificate (the original). You can send that with the application instead of your father's passport, if he'll let you, but it's fine to just send the passport (or copy of it). It's easy to overthink these applications, but it's best to stick to following the instructions in the guide until the Home Office get in touch with further instructions.

• I lived in UK from age of 6 months so attended Nursery, Primary & Secondary Schools, College and University. I have also worked part time from the age of 16 until 23 before becoming self-employed. I can easily prove 3 years of having lived in the UK through pay slips etc.

All sounds good.

• My father has a “Certificate of Registration As A Citizen Of The United Kingdom And Colonies” from March 1975. So a copy of this should be sufficient right? Or do I have should I get an official Nationality Status Doc as above?

As stated above, if you send this, it should be the original certificate. However, it's probably easier for both of you to send the full copy of his passport instead. The worst case scenario is that the Home Office will get in touch to ask for the naturalisation certificate.

In your previous post you mentioned i don't have to be inside the UK to make the MN1 application...Just in case you know...who would I submit the application and supporting docs to? I mean would it be the UK Consulate/Embassy in Egypt or..?

Send it to the Home Office address in Liverpool:
Department 1
UK Visas and Immigration
The Capital Building
New Hall Place
Liverpool
L3 9PP

Should i be registering documents like my civil marriage and the babies birth certificates with the British Consulate?

I don't think you need to inform the British consulate of your marriage, and consular birth certificates can only be issued to children who are UK citizens at birth, which your child will not be (hence the need to register using MN1). However, as noted above, you will need official translations of any documents that aren't in English.

Good luck with everything and please come back to let us know how it all turns out!

[JAJ]

The Home Office will probably need evidence that the British grandfather of the child- registered in the U.K. in 1975- became a British citizen otherwise than by descent in 1983. A passport in itself does not prove that- so they probably will want to see some details of the registration. In theory they should be able to look it up but it appears that they no longer have records prior to 1986 and the only source of data is the National Archives.

Perhaps try to get an official copy of the certificate from the National Archives first?
https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/con ... 1949-1986/

Regarding Egyptian citizenship- it should be discussed with an Egyptian lawyer if important- but in general, in many countries, failure to document a citizenship does not mean that the citizenship was not acquired. However, as I understand it, Egyptian citizenship passes normally through the father unless the parents are unmarried. So the child of an Egyptian mother is not automatically Egyptian. The child- however, may automatically be Pakistani.

Separate question- whether the child is Pakistani, British or both- if intending to spend time in Egypt then the child may need an Egypt immigration permit/visa.

[WasimAslam]

Hi Tea_Rocket

Thank you for your reply....you have been more then helpful so can't thank you enough.

And yes of course i will come back and let you know how everything turns out. The MN1 application process seems like something i could do my self but will most likely get a lawyer to handle the process on my behalf from within the UK...hopefully this can be done considering i will be in Egypt once the child is born there.

Hi JAJ...thanks for your input...much appreciated.

"The Home Office will probably need evidence that the British grandfather of the child- registered in the U.K. in 1975- became a British citizen otherwise than by descent in 1983."

My father was registered in 1975 as a British Citizen...would he not have been a Citizen otherwise than by descent at that point and not in 1983?

Anyway I have asked my father to request an official copy of the registration from the National Archive...hopefully it survived! (Apparently some haven't) I will be sending them both the registration cert and a copy of his passport.

Yes you are correct the baby will not have an automatic right to the Egyptian nationality...my wife would have to prove a few generations of being Egyptian...she has an official cert so that should be ok if we decide to do that. Don't know how the compulsory national service (Military) works in Egypt and wouldn't want my kids to have to go through that.

Not sure how it works re visas for babies born in Egypt to Egyptian mother...tbh i don't think they would do anything about it...in any case we will speak to an Egyptian lawyer to be on the safe side.

Also you said the child may automatically be Pakistani...i am hoping he/she can be British first, if the child wants the Pakistani nationality when grown up then thats his/her choice. Or are you saying its something i would be required to do?

Thanks again all for your tips...you have been really helpful.

Wasim

[Tea_Rocket]

Also you said the child may automatically be Pakistani...i am hoping he/she can be British first, if the child wants the Pakistani nationality when grown up then thats his/her choice. Or are you saying its something i would be required to do?

I think JAJ was saying that your child may be a citizen of Pakistan automatically (and regardless of whether he or she is registered as one). Since you plan on sending proof of your time in living in the UK, this isn't that important to your MN1 application, but you may wish to seek advice on whether your child will automatically be considered a citizen of Pakistan at birth or not.

[JAJ]

And yes of course i will come back and let you know how everything turns out. The MN1 application process seems like something i could do my self but will most likely get a lawyer to handle the process on my behalf from within the UK...hopefully this can be done considering i will be in Egypt once the child is born there.

It is possible to send a form MN1 application directly from Egypt to the Home Office- although you should always use a courier (DHL, etc.)

"The Home Office will probably need evidence that the British grandfather of the child- registered in the U.K. in 1975- became a British citizen otherwise than by descent in 1983."

My father was registered in 1975 as a British Citizen...would he not have been a Citizen otherwise than by descent at that point and not in 1983?

British citizenship did not exist in 1975. The status was created on 1 January 1983. Your father was registered as a Citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies (CUKC). Although he was a CUKC otherwise than by descent, some CUKCs (example- from colonies) did not become British citizens, or became British citizens by descent.

In your father's case, his Home Office registration certificate proves that he became a British citizen otherwise than by descent in 1983.

Also you said the child may automatically be Pakistani...i am hoping he/she can be British first, if the child wants the Pakistani nationality when grown up then thats his/her choice. Or are you saying its something i would be required to do?

Not required to do anything. However- you need to show 3 years U.K. residence for the Section 3(2) since the Home Office would likely not accept the child is stateless unless you can show that the child hasn't yet acquired Pakistani citizenship. The Home Office view of Pakistan law is at page 25:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... s-v1.0.pdf

If the child is already a Pakistani citizen, then you will need to consider whether or not you wish to document it (passport/ID card etc.). There may be pros and cons to either option. Although- if child needs to travel before British citizenship is granted, and doesn't have an Egyptian passport, then a Pakistan passport may be the only option.

You mentioned earlier that your older brothers were registered as British citizens in 1984. This makes sense if they were born before your father became British. If that's the case- they likely be British otherwise than by descent.

[WasimAslam]

Hi JAJ & Tea_Rocket.

Thank you for your replies...really helpful.

Just to clarify and putting the Pakistani / Egyptian citizenships to 1 side for now..my child born outside of the UK would qualify under 3.2 for the BC providing I can prove the following;

1) My British citizenship...done
2) 3 years in UK....done
3) My father was a British Citizen otherwise then by descent at before I was born.

Just a little confused on point 3 as JAJ you mentioned that my father wouldn't have been a BC otherwise then by descent until 1983 which would be after my birth. Or am I reading it wrong and his registration in 1975 is sufficient for thsee qualifying points on the MN1application route under 3.2?

Thanks in advance.

[JAJ]

Just a little confused on point 3 as JAJ you mentioned that my father wouldn't have been a BC otherwise then by descent until 1983 which would be after my birth. Or am I reading it wrong and his registration in 1975 is sufficient for thsee qualifying points on the MN1application route under 3.2?

Since you were born before 1983, the requirement is that your father became a British citizen otherwise than by descent on 1.1.1983. (not that you had a British citizen otherwise than by descent parent when you were born).

Section 3(3)(b) of the Act. http://www.legislation.gov.uk/1981?titl ... lity%20Act

[Abuljeem]

Hi Wassim
I wonder if you managed to register the baby as British citizen, I have very similar case of my son, living abroad, and expecting to have his baby next May, any luck with your application, if so any tricks.
Thank you

[secret.simon]

Hi Wassim
I wonder if you managed to register the baby as British citizen, I have very similar case of my son, living abroad, and expecting to have his baby next May, any luck with your application, if so any tricks.
Thank you

How did you acquire your British citizenship? When and where were you born?

[WasimAslam]

Hi Wassim
I wonder if you managed to register the baby as British citizen, I have very similar case of my son, living abroad, and expecting to have his baby next May, any luck with your application, if so any tricks.
Thank you

Hi Abuljeem, Tea_rocket, JAJ,

Ok 2nd attempt....my last reply was deleted so I'm doing it all again!

Apologies for the long delay in letting everyone know how my son's application progressed.

My son was successfully registered as a British Citizen in August, the application was submitted in April. I supplied documents as we all previously discussed and wasn't required to provide anything further...so thanks to all for your suggestions and help.

Abuljeem,

No tricks really it's just a matter of you being able to prove your right to the British Nationality if you were born outside of the UK and that of your parents if they were born outside. In addition to that you will have to prove you lived in the UK for a period of 3 years whilst being a British Citizen.

Documents provided by me were more or less the following;

Fathers British passport ans Registration cert
Parents marriage docs + translations
My BC+ translation
My British passport
My marriage docs + translation
Childs local BC + translation
P60 work slips, educational or any uni certs etc.

My child didn't have the Egyptian or Pakistani nationality so was stateless...so I didn't have to prove the 3 years....We done it anyway to strengthen the application.

The main thing is for the processing officer wants to see your claim to the BN.

We used an immigration firm in the UK who done everything for us and it was really good obviously. Not sure if I could give you there details in a private message or not.

Also, if you could briefly tell us your situation...where you are, background etc then maybe I could give you more specific suggestions if I also experienced the same.

Finally, Try to get all your documents into order as it could take time for translations etc.

Thanks and good luck

Wasim