Job creation two extra staff for extension

[Hoihoi]

Please help....
I have invested in an existing company ..they originally had 60 part time and full time care assistants working in client home doing personal care and 2 admin staff in office doing coordination and admin work.

I had already employed two extra office managers for the office but I found out in the RTI full payment submission forms that the care assistants were dropped to 45.

That means ...it looks like the total number of staff was dropped from 62(60 frontline care assistants +2office staff ) to 49(45frontline care assistants +4 office staff)

Would that be a problem that CW do not take into account if different job nature?
As some care assistants only work few hours a week but they still count as staff?

[marcnath]

The requirement is that there should be a Nett increase in jobs. Again, as we repeat over and over, it is jobs NOT Employees or staff.
So, on the face of it, you have created two new additional jobs.
Obviously, It would be difficult for the CW to figure that out from the documents you submit. So, you should clearly argue that out in the cover letter and maybe even better as a separate document attached to all the job creation documents.
Since most of the care assistants are part time, you can argue that the 60 and 45 staff only represent the same x number of JOBS.

[bizman]

Its kind of complex but ensure you clearly explain in your cover letter the job you have created, if possible also explain the reason why the staff strength was reduced to 45 and what informed the management decision. Bottomline is that you created two jobs. Be very transparent with your explanation .

[Hoihoi]

Thank you for the advice. I am a bit more clear about it is creation of jobs not staff number so I really met the requirement.

The reason why care assistants dropped dramatically was that two old office staff resigned on the same month and brought around 12 care Assistants left in the same months...the RTI can show it in the same month...(we then found out that two old office opened a same kind of home care company in the nearby area and used our old assistants ).

We then recruited other staff to replace their works.

Just not very sure if CW agree on our agrument and support the extensions...so worry about it...

[marcnath]

Thank you for the advice. I am a bit more clear about it is creation of jobs not staff number so I really met the requirement.

The reason why care assistants dropped dramatically was that two old office staff resigned on the same month and brought around 12 care Assistants left in the same months...the RTI can show it in the same month...(we then found out that two old office opened a same kind of home care company in the nearby area and used our old assistants ).

We then recruited other staff to replace their works.

Just not very sure if CW agree on our agrument and support the extensions...so worry about it...

To emphasise, there are two elements to the requirement.

1) You should have created two new jobs.
2) There has to be a NET INCREASE in jobs.

So, if someone creates two sales manager jobs, but fires two admin assistants, the job creation requirement will not be met.

You have clearly met the first part of the requirement. However, it is the second part that you have a challenge with. Explaining why the reduction happened is not going to help - you have to show there has been NO REDUCTION In care assistant jobs, even if there has been a reduction in the staff numbers.

The requirement on NET INCREASE is not defined - so it is up to you to define how the net increase happened. Because the documents required are employee data for 12 months before and after the additional job is created, I assume that is the period that they compare as that is the only information they have access to. So, you really need to look at how the staff development was 12 months before you hired the two new people and after. Also, as you have a lot of part-time care assistants, you may have some flexibility in defining how many jobs they represent.

[Hoihoi]

Want to confirm that should I compare the period I started to invest or I started employing new staff...I invested in July 2016 but new staff report duty in Jan 2017 because we have few board meetings to discuss on the development of business.

Besides..I do not understand how to use the flexibility of care assistants jobs..the no.of staff decrease ..the no.of clients is not stable....not always increasing or decreasing ...I think likely the total hours worked by all care assistants may also decrease....so what do you think I may argue for.....I really do not have a clear mind now..

[marcnath]

Want to confirm that should I compare the period I started to invest or I started employing new staff...I invested in July 2016 but new staff report duty in Jan 2017 because we have few board meetings to discuss on the development of business.

Besides..I do not understand how to use the flexibility of care assistants jobs..the no.of staff decrease ..the no.of clients is not stable....not always increasing or decreasing ...I think likely the total hours worked by all care assistants may also decrease....so what do you think I may argue for.....I really do not have a clear mind now..

Well, it is not very clear what periods are to be compared. The immigration rules refer to increase before and after you joined the business. However the specified documents are for 12 months before the creation of new jobs.
So, CW can look at before and after you joined the business. But given they only have documents 12 months before your new job creation, that is probably what they will look at. Of course if before and after you join works better for you, you can use that and send additional documents to make your case.
As to arguing care assistant jobs, you can say that there is only one care assistant job - but the job was filled by varying number of staff. And that number changes every month or quarter or whatever time frame you want. Or you could have three jobs - Care asssistant (morning shift), Care assistant (afternoon shift) and Care assistant (night shift). Same logic - 3 jobs before and after but the jobs are filled by different number of staff.
Since there are no clear guidelines on this, you can make your argument in a manner that favours you

[Hoihoi]

Oh yes....that means the care assistant is one job and it did not change before or after my investment..

And I have created two new jobs (office managers) and also a net increase when compare to the period before my investment. (2 net increase). Is that right?

[Hoihoi]

And although the care assistants are in RTI...they are even not a job.....they are our "products or service "....when clients need them ...we arrange them to provide personal care.....we would take some profits during the process...e.g.. we pay care assistants 10 pounds but we charge client 12 pounds for example...as we also have admin cost ..coordination cost etc.

Which angle is a better arguments?

[marcnath]

And although the care assistants are in RTI...they are even not a job.....they are our "products or service "....when clients need them ...we arrange them to provide personal care.....we would take some profits during the process...e.g.. we pay care assistants 10 pounds but we charge client 12 pounds for example...as we also have admin cost ..coordination cost etc.

Which angle is a better arguments?

That makes sense - they are just variable costs of production.
Maybe you make this argument first, then continue that even if it considered a job, it should be taken as only one job and add that argument also.
Given that this is an uncertain area, I would not be surprised if your extension is refused anyway because CWs don't need to take letters into account. But it is important to have the explanation for two reasons.
1) Hope the CW will take it into account - When you make a strong argument, I think it is easier for the HO to approve it since you are indicating that you know the rules and you will fight.
2) You need it for any potential AR argument
I think you have a strong case and what you have done should be considered to meet the requirements, but it is difficult to say how the CWs will read it.

[Hoihoi]

Yes...if there is uncertain...I am thinking to open another business by myself e.g a small shop selling gifts or daily things and employ two staff for 12 months....as my visa will expired in oct 2019...i may have time to start the business...the business can also keep running.

Then can I use my home care company to evidence I used all GBP 200 000. And the new shop for two extra staff?

Would that be for sure to get the visa...This shop can also use as a back up for the staff after extension as we still have to employ 2 staff after extension.

Any cases have similar 2 business and get approve or how should it operate?

[Hoihoi]

Or I should base on the RTIs to find the average no.of staff in the past 12 months before my investment and compare it to another 12 months after my investments....if the post investment average staff number is two more bigger ..then it will be safe enough....

I need to check with my accountant first to draw more RTI to compare....

Which way is better?

[marcnath]

Yes...if there is uncertain...I am thinking to open another business by myself e.g a small shop selling gifts or daily things and employ two staff for 12 months....as my visa will expired in oct 2019...i may have time to start the business...the business can also keep running.

Then can I use my home care company to evidence I used all GBP 200 000. And the new shop for two extra staff?

Would that be for sure to get the visa...This shop can also use as a back up for the staff after extension as we still have to employ 2 staff after extension.

Any cases have similar 2 business and get approve or how should it operate?

That would work if you want to take that route.

There is nothing special to do. I myself used job creation from two separate companies for my ILR job creation.

[marcnath]

Or I should base on the RTIs to find the average no.of staff in the past 12 months before my investment and compare it to another 12 months after my investments....if the post investment average staff number is two more bigger ..then it will be safe enough....

I need to check with my accountant first to draw more RTI to compare....

Which way is better?

Yes, averages would work. As I said, since it is not clear in the immigration rules and guidance, you can use the most favourable argument and leave it to HO to argue against - which I think they would prefer not to.

[Hoihoi]

My service partner said the care assistants should not count as employee ..they are classified as agency worker in home office website...

Another solicitor said home office may count only full time worker before my investments ..that is care assistants who worked over 30 hours per week before my investments...

[marcnath]

My service partner said the care assistants should not count as employee ..they are classified as agency worker in home office website...

Another solicitor said home office may count only full time worker before my investments ..that is care assistants who worked over 30 hours per week before my investments...

The service partner's explanation could also be used as a justification. The immigration rules do not differentiate. If you needed them for your job creation, under the immigration rules, you could have used them for your job creation.

The solicitor's explanation makes no sense - ask him/her for the relevant immigration rules section.

[Hoihoi]

Thank you for your advice. I also cannot find the rules mentioned by the solicitor.

I am asking my business partner to show me the contract of our care assistants ...as they pay as the hours worked and no pay if they are not working ...that is depend on the market demand. ....not like office staff they are employed full time and part time ..