Marriage Visit Visa

[THO]

Hi,

I do hope this is the correct board to post this topic on. Anyway, my fiancé and I have just applied to today for a marriage visitor visa for her to come to the UK to marry. Supposedly allows her to stay for 6 months and marry me, but she must return, and then we apply for her to come live here.

We met 2 years ago in Munich. She is Vietnamese and I am UK born and bread. We tried for a visitor visa after a few months together for her to come to the UK, but were turned down, so we applied again immediately, and provided so much supporting documentation, but again were turned down because they said we did not prove the ongoing relationship or that she would return home.

This application, we have sent in all of our chat history from WhatsApp and Skype, copies of my passport showing my stamps visiting her, and the other countries we have been together in, plus pictures proving this. Letters from people who state they were there when we met, including their passport photo and signature to prove they are real. I have sent my contract of employment, a letter from my employer stating I am honest and decent, deeds to my house, a recent bill showing I am still there, a letter from my father stating he wants to see me marry and that he can't travel, with his driving license attached to show he is real. My birth certificate to prove he is my father and not just anyone with the same name. A letter from me stating our intentions and that I will look after her.

She has sent in her family tree, contract of employment (although they won't keep her job open for her) bank statement to prove she has funds to support herself, a letter stating our intentions, and that she realises she could not work legally in the UK and it would mean the end of our relationship if she did not return as the HO would visit me at my house to find her.

So much more evidence provided, however, she has no dependants in Vietnam, and lives with her bro and SIL, so does not own a property. It seems all the advice I get is that without these two things she has no reason to return, so will be refused. But the way I see it, is that these two things could well be reasons she would want to stay beyond her visa to work illegally, to earn money to pay for her child and or home? Can anyone out there give me any hope, that becasue we have almost certainly proven the relationship is real, and therefore our desire to marry and not live outside the law is enough for them to grant the visa?

Thanks,

[CR001]

Why did you not apply for a Fiance Visa which would have allowed her to stay in the UK and switch to a spouse visa once you are married?

If your intention is to remain in the UK and settle, she might not get the marriage visitor visa.

[Ballmigirl17]

Are you sure it was a marriage visit visa you applied for?

A marriage visit visa is for people who want to marry in the UK but have no intention of settling in the UK.

It should be a fiance you applied for... i got confused with the 2 at the beginning also but some dedicated research clarified the difference for me

If you have applied for Marriage visit visa it will probably get refused as its the wrong one... sorry to say

[THO]

But I am settled in the UK and after we get (if she get the visa) she will return home and apply for a visa from there. The reason we went for this Visit visa, and not the fiancé one, is twofold, one it is far cheaper, and two it is much quicker to get and my father does not have long, as he has cancer. So we stated this.

So, are you saying because I am settled here and she is not, we will be rejected automatically?

[THO]

Also, I should mention I spoke to a visa solicitor, and asked his advice. He said that the main difference between the marriage visit and fiancé is that for the second one you don't have to prove you will go home, but the first one they need to believe you will. But how does anyone prove they will go home? It's more of a reason to stay if you have financial burdens / obligations at home such as a mortgage or child?

And, what is the point of a visa if no one can get it? Marriage visit seems a very odd visa, where someone who is not settled in the UK can have his fiancé come over to marry, and he/ she has to go back. Why doesn't he/she just go back to their place and marry there?

[Ballmigirl17]

But I am settled in the UK and after we get (if she get the visa) she will return home and apply for a visa from there. The reason we went for this Visit visa, and not the fiancé one, is twofold, one it is far cheaper, and two it is much quicker to get and my father does not have long, as he has cancer. So we stated this.

So, are you saying because I am settled here and she is not, we will be rejected automatically?

The marriage visitor visa is for couples who want to marry abroad, for example like many British couples who want to marry on a beach in Spain etc except for foreign couples not from the UK who want to marry in the UK but have no intentions of staying in the UK or settling in the UK.

unfortunately it doesn't work like that. Fiance visa is the only visa that i know of allows you to settle in the uk once married. You dont need to return after you are married in the UK on a fiance visa, You then apply for spouse visa.

the home office will most likely look at this as if you are trying to get around the rules and likley to overstay.

[Ballmigirl17]

Also, I should mention I spoke to a visa solicitor, and asked his advice. He said that the main difference between the marriage visit and fiancé is that for the second one you don't have to prove you will go home, but the first one they need to believe you will. But how does anyone prove they will go home? It's more of a reason to stay if you have financial burdens / obligations at home such as a mortgage or child?

And, what is the point of a visa if no one can get it? Marriage visit seems a very odd visa, where someone who is not settled in the UK can have his fiancé come over to marry, and he/ she has to go back. Why doesn't he/she just go back to their place and marry there?

The process is very stressful and costly! im not a solicitor or adviser but i dont think they have given you correct information.

What you need to be aware of is the current government and the way the home office is being run at the moment is 1) a total shambles 2) they will do anything not to accept 3) its a money making process.

it is however cheaper to marry in her country and apply as a spouse visa saves you 2 application fees and i would say there is more chance of getting accepted - reason being the way the law works married couples have more rights than those fiances who are intending to marry.

[THO]

Yes, it is very stressful and costly, and it has to be said it is taking it's toll. Her company had agreed to move her to the UK office, and applied for the RCOS, she had 33 points, only to be the first month it went from 21 to 55.

I re-read the visa description, and it doesn't say she isn't eligible to apply to come to the UK and marry me on that visa, it just says she can't intend to settle after marriage, but it also says nothing about returning home after getting married, to then apply for a visa to convert to be able to stay.


We have also provided all the list of things stated and tons more.

If anyone else has done this, in my situation, I'd love to hear your thoughts.

[Ballmigirl17]

it just says she can't intend to settle after marriage, but it also says nothing about returning home after getting married, to then apply for a visa to convert to be able to stay..

That says it all really, and as cruel as the home office are, they will use it against you both.

Like I said they will do anything to keep people out of the country, and if after being unsuccessful you will have a fight on your hands because you cant call and speak to anyone, emails they take at least 4 weeks to respond too and are very vague and are set out very scripted. They will basically say to you that you applied for the wrong visa there is nothing they can do. and want you to pay all over again.

Just out of curiosity when you intend to marry in the UK how long does she plan on staying in her resident country for? because if you apply straight away the chances are it will be a refusal because like i said before they will look at it as you trying to bend the rules. if she stays there for a few years then applies... maybe they will understand circumstances have changed etc but with my experience with the home office they probably dont care.

Sorry if I come across like a know it all! I really dont but My partner got refused his visa and we both never took it very well at all and led to devastating consequences, i would never wish the same on anyone else.

[THO]

Do you mean how long after we marry, will she return to her country for? Well, if we are granted this visa, then I will return with her at the end of the 6 months, and we will have another marriage ceremony over there for her family and then apply for her to come to the UK. I will return and wait.

Yes, it is very annoying that there is not a helpful advice line, or anyone to appeal to and that everything is so woolly, what documents must we provide or how can we prove 100% she will return? Like I said a house or child is no guarantee she won't overstay, neither is a job to go back to for that matter.

[Casa]

I fail to see that there's a problem applying for a marriage visitor visa if your wife intends to leave the UK after you are married.

Can you clarify that my understanding is correct:
Due to personal circumstances you wish to marry in the UK and later apply for a Spouse Settlement visa.

There is no restriction on the time you are required to wait before submitting the Spouse visa application after she returns to her home country. She simply needs to meet the requirements to qualify for settlement.

You won't be using a Marriage Visitor visa to circumvent the Immigration Rules. This would only be the case if your wife had no intention to leave the UK after the wedding has taken place.

It appears from your post that you are applying for the correct visa for the route you intend to take.

[Katie_France]

To add only to what Casa has already said. If you are refused for marriage visitor visa, it will be cheaper if you marry anywhere (Germany or anywhere else), and apply for spouse settlement visa.

[Casa]

To add only to what Casa has already said. If you are refused for marriage visitor visa, it will be cheaper if you marry anywhere (Germany or anywhere else), and apply for spouse settlement visa.

I believe the issue here is that the OP wants his terminally ill father to be present at the wedding and he is not well enough to travel.

[Ballmigirl17]

I fail to see that there's a problem applying for a marriage visitor visa if your wife intends to leave the UK after you are married.

Can you clarify that my understanding is correct:
Due to personal circumstances you wish to marry in the UK and later apply for a Spouse Settlement visa.

There is no restriction on the time you are required to wait before submitting the Spouse visa application after she returns to her home country. She simply needs to meet the requirements to qualify for settlement.

You won't be using a Marriage Visitor visa to circumvent the Immigration Rules. This would only be the case if your wife had no intention to leave the UK after the wedding has taken place.

It appears from your post that you are applying for the correct visa for the route you intend to take.

#

My understanding is that if she is granted the marriage visit visa then they marry and she goes home... then straight away applies for spouse settlement then they will start to think that they are trying to get around it.

If for example they get married then dont apply until maybe 1 years or 2 years after, then i dont see the problem

In reality what you have described above should be acceptable and there should never be a problem, but this is the home office/ukvi we are talking about who recently are not doing a great job at following their own procedures and are being really tough. but thats just my experience.

[THO]

Lot's of good points. And thanks Casa, I think the visa is correct for our needs, but I just hope that we have convinced the person making the grant / not granted visa decision that she will return.

She is very worried because she is giving up her job, and therefore can't show evidence that she has one to go back to. So she feels that they will turn her down for that reason, however, she does have substantial savings, and so can easily support herself for a couple of years without working.

I guess I am just hoping that for this visa, we have to prove intention to marry because then of course she would go home in accordance with the visa, because how could she be married to me and living with me at my house I have lived in for many years, and not be caught. And then of course she would never be allowed back to the UK. I just hope that I am right, and they won't consider her employment as an issue.

She was turned down for the holiday visitor visa 2 years ago and she had a good job then. It's almost impossible for anyone to prove that they will return home in accordance with the visa.

But, I am being logical, and there doesn't seem to be any logic to this process. It's almost like a lottery.

[THO]

Does anyone have any idea what the visa officials would accept as proof that someone intends to return home? It doesn't seem possible to me, that anyone can prove this.

And do you agree that proving our relationship is real, and therefore the intent to marry, should be enough for the official to assume that she won't be absconding?

[CR001]

Does anyone have any idea what the visa officials would accept as proof that someone intends to return home? It doesn't seem possible to me, that anyone can prove this.

Employment in home country, letter from employer granting time off work, family ties, social ties, financial ties, property ownership, savings etc etc

And do you agree that proving our relationship is real, and therefore the intent to marry, should be enough for the official to assume that she won't be absconding?

This actual could cause an ECO to think the opposite and believe she will remain in the UK and trying to circumvent the immigration rules by avoiding the more difficult and costly fiance visa. Many people have done this using visitor visas as they are cheaper, which is why UKVI are skeptical

[THO]

Thanks for the reply CR001

You replied..

"Employment in home country, letter from employer granting time off work, family ties, social ties, financial ties, property ownership, savings etc etc"

With the RCOS, there are clearly laid out conditions that need to be met to score points, which can then be used to decide if it's worth trying for one or not. But these things don't exist for the other visa types, so people like us apply in desperate hope that we get one, and then likely get a disappointing result, with ne real explanation as to where the application went wrong.

If I look at it logically, then for me having a child could be a reason someone wants to find work in a "rich well paid country" like the UK. So many women come here from Asia to work as prostitutes, in order to support their child, so I would see that as a potential red flag, unmarried mother.

We have already been turned down for a visitor visa, and she had a good job to go back to, so that doesn't seem to help. Besides, if that is a way of getting a visa, someone could easily get this from their employer and then resign when they have the visa approved.

A house, needs paying for so again would be for me a reason to try to get work in the UK, it won't evaporate while she is gone after all.

She has family, and that didn't help before.

She has substantial saving, enough to last her a couple of years of not working when she returns.

My next question.

"And do you agree that proving our relationship is real, and therefore the intent to marry, should be enough for the official to assume that she won't be absconding?"


Reply.

"This actual could cause an ECO to think the opposite and believe she will remain in the UK and trying to circumvent the immigration rules by avoiding the more difficult and costly fiance visa. Many people have done this using visitor visas as they are cheaper, which is why UKVI are sceptical"

My reply,

As far as I can see this does not circumnavigate any visa. I could go to Vietnam and marry her there and then we'd need to apply for the same visa for her to live here, as if she came here and married me here, the only difference being is she would be over there while the process took it's course.

I just wish there was some way of knowing what weighting is given to what aspect of this type of application. For instance, without a job to go back to, is it an immediate refusal, regardless of any other supporting information, or is it say just 20% of the overall picture, and you need to get say 80% score to get a visa? How much weight would be given to the fact that she could have absconded in Europe, where I met her, or in Japan or in Australia but didn't?

I hope one of the members has had experience of this visa and got it, so I can get more hope of success, because right now I feel quite like we are in for a disappointment.

[THO]

Sorry, what I meant to say was..... The only differences would be the location of the marriage and that she would remain there until the spouse visa was granted.

[THO]

Hi,

We are still waiting to hear about the visa, I expect it will be a declined but we live in hope. However, I decided to do some research to see if there was anyway I could challenge an unfair decision, since the MVV decision is supposed to be un-challengeable. I thought though, that my human right is to marry and live with who I choose, and denying my fiancé a visa, is a breach of that.

So I dug up something called a Pre-action Protocol. I would need a good immigration solicitor, and I think I have found one, and it would cost between £600 to £1,000, but this is a way of quickly getting the H/O to justify their reason for refusal, and if they can't do that with a clear and relevant reason, then it's grounds for a court case. Apparently, once they see they can't defend themselves in court they overturn the decision and grant a visa.

Apparently this can be done in very quick order too, sometimes in days but mostly in around 3 weeks. My case could be quick due to the reason we need a visa fast.

Anyone any further details on this option?

[Ballmigirl17]

Hi,

We are still waiting to hear about the visa, I expect it will be a declined but we live in hope. However, I decided to do some research to see if there was anyway I could challenge an unfair decision, since the MVV decision is supposed to be un-challengeable. I thought though, that my human right is to marry and live with who I choose, and denying my fiancé a visa, is a breach of that.

So I dug up something called a Pre-action Protocol. I would need a good immigration solicitor, and I think I have found one, and it would cost between £600 to £1,000, but this is a way of quickly getting the H/O to justify their reason for refusal, and if they can't do that with a clear and relevant reason, then it's grounds for a court case. Apparently, once they see they can't defend themselves in court they overturn the decision and grant a visa.

Apparently this can be done in very quick order too, sometimes in days but mostly in around 3 weeks. My case could be quick due to the reason we need a visa fast.

Anyone any further details on this option?

i dont know Much about pre action protocol, but what I will say is although it may be your right to love and marry who you want the home home office do not care. As harsh as it sounds They do not care about anyone. I dont know how far the law goes with it as a "breach of human rights" in reality to someone like you and me of course it is. But they just do not care. I could have died because of their constant errors and even when they found that out... still nothing, you get more sense out of a young child.

As far as they are concerned its your fault you applied for the wrong visa. They dont cut anyone slack at all and they never take into consideration that their rules and regulations procedures whatever they want to call it are not exactly clear to some people. its like a code that we know nothing about.

In my case they couldn't defend themselves so they didn't even show up to court nor provide appeal bundle. As previously said to you all they care about is keeping immigration down as told by the people higher up.

As far as a pre action protocol goes, i have looked it up a few times and from what i understand it is something to do with a judical review.

If that is the best option then go for it do everything you can and dont give up, because they will mug you off constantly dont give up!!

[THO]

Visa refused

I have refused your application for a marriage visit visa because I am not satisfied that you meet the
requirements oi paragraph(s) V 6.3 of Appendix V. lmmigration Rules for Visitors because:
o ln your application you state you are travelling to the UK for 6 months in order to marry,
following whicr, you will return io Vietnam .Although you submitted a number of documents in
support-of your ipplication you provided nothing that confirms arrangements have been made
for your marriage.
o I also note the documents submitted do not demonstrate either your own or your fianc6s
financial ability to fund this trip
. ln the absence of the documentation mentioned above I am not satisfied that you intend to visit
the UK in order to marry or form a civil partnership'

Solicitor said they have obviously not read the supporting documents, since I sent my contract of employment, and my fiancé sent her bank statement which shows plenty of savings. She said there is a very good chance that the pre-action protocol will work in this case. It's just more expense and delay.

[THO]

Oh, and it's not possible to book a wedding in the UK without her having been here for 8 days, and we provided that document to them too.

[THO]

Update.
I am very pleased to say that I managed to get a review of the decision and had it overturned, my fiance has been granted her visa.

What I did was take a two tiered approach, firstly I went to my MP and asked him to take up my case, explaining clearly how the decision that was made, was made incorrectly and exactly why. I received a first response from the H/O stating exactly what the first ECO had said, and giving an example of what I should have done to get the visa. This took 20 working to days to arrive.

Obviously he had NOT reviewed the information we had sent in, just read the refusal and restated it. So I went back through my MP and explained that I was not going to go away, and pointing out the fact that the evidence I was refused on was provided, but not considered and that if this matter was not properly looked at, I would take it to court.

Secondly, I put in a complaint about the conduct of the ECO's, using the complaints proceedure. This clearly states that it is not to a method to be used to review the outcome of a visa decision, so I used the approach that the ECO had not taken due care and attention with his decision or considered the evidence provided correctly, and unless some real justification was given for the refusal, I would be taking the department to court.

Eventually, my fiance received a call out of the blue asking her to check her email, the H/O asked for us to re-submit some information (it had already been sent) which we did and then she recieved an email back asking for her to retake her passport to the VFO office in HCMC for "amendment and correction" . It was unclear what that meant, and no one in the VFO was giving anything away.

Latterly I received an email stating they had reveiwed and upheld my complaint and that her case had been reveiwed and a final outcome would be given after mandatory checks had been carried out.
Again, not clear, but we were hopeful.

Finally she received her visa.... However, it started 2 days before she received it and since she can't leave her job until mid Nov, due to notice period, then we have lost 1.5 months of the 6 month visa. I do wonder, just how stupid are these people?
So the moral of the story is, even though it says no right to appeal or judicial review, if they have made a glaring error and you have an MP, use him/ her and explain your case. Don't ask for a review, ask for clarification as you are conisdering suing unless they give you good reason not to.

[THO]

Question, please answer if you know the answer rather than an opinion. I am a little confused, once my fiancé and I are married, she will return to Vietnam and then we need to apply for a spouse residency visa for her to come and live and work here in the UK. Is it me that applies for a visa to bring her over, or is it her that applies for the visa to come and be with me?

I know she has to be out of the country when either of us applies, but which visa do we need to obtain and where will it be processed etc? Is it she applies in Vietnam for a visa to come here and so it would be dealt with in either Bangkok or New Dehli, or do I apply here in the UK and so it is dealt with in UK? Who will need to prove what for us to get the visa?

Thanks,