Visitor guide does not have enough details

Reading the visitor guide for Visa:

"As a guide, you should include:

bank statements, payslips, or some other evidence to show that you can pay for the trip and that you have enough money to support yourself and any dependants without working or getting any help from public funds; and"

Does not give enought details how to for example prove your money situation in a situation where your bank statement history is not good. A lot of people have this situation, so I wonder why this is not properly explained. I have this situation: for certain reasons my bank history is bad, but I still have currently more than £2000 cash to spend at any time.

My friend applied Visa and has a lot of money in her account. But was rejected because they did not believe it was her money. Well... if bank statements are not enough, then please can somebody from the Visa office tell us how to fix this problem: how to prove its our money. But there is no phone number on their website to call to... (by the way, I am not from UK and on my home countrys Visa agencys website they do have a phone number -not one but two- and you can call them every day. I just called them and a nice lady used a lot of time to explain to me what I asked. Thats how it should be in the UK in my opinion!).

So it feels to me like a father who punishes his son for not cleaning his room properly. When his son asks: "what should I do to clean it properly", his father replies: "you figure it out. But if tomorrow its not properly cleaned, you will get a double punishment".

Also the UK Border Agancy does not have a phone number where I could ask help how should I prove my money situation. So its gonna be pure guessing my attempt to do it. And there goes another £75 ...

I think this is not acceptable, that there is no phone support for advices. Best would be that the person who rejected the application would let me know how to fix the problems. They do that for example with housing benefits (they tell how to fix document/evidenve errors).

I contacted one politician about this... In my opinion this is not a good service for honest British citizens who want to honestly create their familier and meet friends. This is my opinion, and I might be wrong, but I have my right to express my opinion , isnt it? Thats freedom of speach.

Several million people apply for visas to the UK every year from every country on the planet. I think having the answer to every possible question about every possible financial institution in combination with every possible source of money.

In your example it would be like a father having hundreds of thousands of children screaming for individual attention at the same time.

The UK Border Agency already costs more money to run than is raised in visa fees. Call centres staffed to the level of service you are implying, ie experts, would be so expensive I am sure that a few hospitals would have to close to pay for it.

People pay for other sorts of advice, tax, family law, consumer law and so on. The principle is no different to immigration law and policy.

The government is not your parent to take you by the hand and sort things out for you.

There is almost no way to prove that youhave cash, in fact that was one of the first ever 'visa' scams back in around 1905. People seeking entry to the UK borrowed a five pound note to prove that they could support themselves. They started getting caught out when the officials kept a record of the number of the note!

PaperPusher wrote:Several million people apply for visas to the UK every year from every country on the planet. I think having the answer to every possible question about every possible financial institution in combination with every possible source of money.

How many people apply housing benefits in the UK every year? Quite a lot, and they still do answer questions. So its not about being impossible job, but rather what we want to focus on.

More workers in, and they can do it.

And this is also about skills to manage the job. I will explain below. When done skillfully (using wishdom), its not that big job actually.

PaperPusher wrote:In your example it would be like a father having hundreds of thousands of children screaming for individual attention at the same time.

Only if the father does not care and does nothing (=is lazy). But if the father is wise he would use time to make like 100-200 specific advices/rules to his children how to clean their rooms. And being wise, he would chose the ones which together will advice like 99.9% of the children to clean the room correctly. This book/booklet has to done only once and can be used years. So in reality only handfull of those children would need to come to ask help because they cannot find it from that detailed book.

This is what the UK Border Agency should also do: find 100-200 most common situations and give *detailed* information how to fix those cases. This would not take so many weeks to do with a group of specialist. It would save massively amount of time and issues if just done corretly. After that they have absolutely no problems to also answer the rest cases on phone. That way everybody gets served.

Its all about wisdom and business management. Also it cannot be true that they do not get enough money to do this. That is clearly only poor business management. To get £75 per short application I think they should have no problems to keep it relatively profitable. How much one officer uses to work with one Visitor Visa application? One hour? £75 per hour, sounds good to me. I work for £12 /hour, and am ok.
Of course if you give like £90000 salaries to Visa officers, then obviously the business does not profit much...

Has to make a good business plan first...And also think areas where to save money.

PaperPusher wrote:The UK Border Agency already costs more money to run than is raised in visa fees.

Sounds a bit unbelievable if one simple visitor Visa application costs £75 for us. But you might be possible right. Can I see reports or documents about this?

As I said, it can also be because of poor business plan, like with any companies.

Also, I would be totally happy to pay like £100 to get extra help in turn from them.

PaperPusher wrote:Call centres staffed to the level of service you are implying, ie experts, would be so expensive I am sure that a few hospitals would have to close to pay for it.

Or pay less salaries to them to keep costs lower? And remember the advisor book, if well done, would save massively amount of money itself. Also, some of the staff could work from home to keep costs low etc etc. Good business plan could help. Am sure there are people in the UK (where difficult to find jobs sometimes) willing to take positions with a bit lower salaries.

And as I said, most cases can be adviced simply making just one book which has all the details of all specific main situations. Only like 1% would then be out of that book cases, which could easily be handled with calling centres.

PaperPusher wrote:People pay for other sorts of advice, tax, family law, consumer law and so on. The principle is no different to immigration law and policy.

Although for example tax offices *do* give phone advice and email advice. And they do it actually quite helpfully, I have experience. Its just, that I have to ask the right questions - they do asnwers when I do.

Also, immigration is much more important issue than for example tax issues. In immigration its a question about relationships/love/beeing able to create a family. But in tax its only about money. I rather pay more taxes and have my best friend here ... Its about priorities. A Pakistan son being able to see his dying father just before he dies, thats more important than tax issues - at least for him.

Somebody sang "Cant buy me love".

PaperPusher wrote:The government is not your parent to take you by the hand and sort things out for you.

Here I disagree. Goverment should be like any father or other leaders, who should take care of the ones are under them. Not money making business not caring basic human values, like being able to create families, meet relatives etc.

PaperPusher wrote:There is almost no way to prove that youhave cash, in fact that was one of the first ever 'visa' scams back in around 1905. People seeking entry to the UK borrowed a five pound note to prove that they could support themselves. They started getting caught out when the officials kept a record of the number of the note!

If there is no way to prove that you have cash when you arrive (where I think you are kind of right), why they do then check you (bank accounts etc)? On what ground a person who has regular salary is better than a person who is unemployed but wins a lottory?
IN theory they both can be out of cash just before they make the trip!!

A person with a very good monthly salary can suddenly gamble all his money and has no money when arriving to the UK.

So its not really about whether somebody has good 6 months banks statements in my opinion. Also, 6 months is not very long period to prove anything.

I am sure there are ways to solve this. For example a rule that return ticket and hotel must be paid before hand. But in return the Visa officers would offer help to make the application right by calling if there is need for more documents. If they call, they could charge small extra fees to cover the extra work.
This way eveybody is happy. The traveller is happy to order tickets beforehand if they know that there is genuine will from officers side to get it right.
Of course if the applicant has real problems (like criminal record) then of course its ok to refuce the application and they lose their ticket money. But most travellers I think are genuine, so for them this would be good news and if you are genuine traveller, then you know that you will end up getting the Visa.

Let me add finally, that of course there are difficult cases (I dont think my case for example should be one of those). Those cases need professional help. But come on, most of the visa applications should be straighforward. At least if the other party is living in the UK. If they rent a house, in my opinion they also have means to provide their visitor. I have lived on £1 per day many times and am still alive. There is a lot of cheap food in London!

The UK Border Agency could for example create a book which contains:
- All the main situations and what to do in those situations. Like for example how to prove your income if you just won a lottory or got a big money some other way.

- There could be couple of hundreds real life examples about applicatons done by different people and explanations how they should have done it and how to make the application right in eatch of these example cases.
By reading these, one could get a pretty good idea what to do. The reason is, that statistically speaking most people have very similar situations (like many are students - so they could read all the examples about students).

jp70 wrote:The UK Border Agency could for example create a book which contains:
- All the main situations and what to do in those situations. Like for example how to prove your income if you just won a lottory or got a big money some other way.

Have you won the lottery? YES or NO

Two possible outcomes

Have you spent all your lottery winnings? YES or NO

Now we have four possible outcomes

Was/Is your money deposited in a financial institution regulated by that country's financial regulator? YES or NO

Eight possible outcomes now.

Please select the relevant country from the dropdown list: 

Afghanistan
Albania
Algeria.... 

We are now up to 1624 different situations which will each need a different answer.

I don't know how simple you think this is, but this sort of stuff has highly paid people working in large teams to get the 100 most common situations covered, otherwise they should be known as case studies for demostrative purposes only and should not be taken as a guarantee that your visa will be issued.

- There could be couple of hundreds real life examples about applicatons done by different people and explanations how they should have done it and how to make the application right in eatch of these example cases. 
   By reading these, one could get a pretty good idea what to do. The reason is, that statistically speaking most people have very similar situations (like many are students - so they could read all the examples about students).

How would this book be used? Would the person on the phone go to the caller "sorry but I haven't got to the example where you are funded by your home government, and I have to read them all to you and the you are supposed to say 'ah, that answers my question' but you actually aren't allowed to ask a question, like what do I do if I keep my money in cash under the bed?" 

Or, it seems you are now suggesting someone gets given a book the size of War and Peace costing a couple of quid to print if they think they may apply for a visa at some point?

Visitor's visas are issued at less than the cost of processing them. Do not forget removing all the poor people who live on £1 a day and decide to stay in the UK to earn more money is expensive. The UKBA also does more than just issue (or refuse) visas. Customs work for example. The UKBA even has ships patrolling the coast.

one long rant just cause your friend did not get a visa . If they had got the visa there would be no ranting . They did not show the information that is that .
There are plenty of people who can advise how to complete the from correctly and show the correct details . The guidance in the most is clear and where not then trained advisors can help .
Getting a visa is not a right. I did not pass an exam once who to blame me did not learn enough . I could have said the teacher did not teach me well ,

Apply agian and follow the information in the refusal letter if they meet the criteria .

PaperPusher wrote: Have you won the lottery? YES or NO

Two possible outcomes

Have you spent all your lottery winnings? YES or NO

Now we have four possible outcomes

Was/Is your money deposited in a financial institution regulated by that country's financial regulator? YES or NO

Eight possible outcomes now.

Please select the relevant country from the dropdown list: 

Afghanistan
Albania
Algeria.... 

We are now up to 1624 different situations which will each need a different answer.

It does not need to go that deep in levels. They could simply say: "If you have a lot of money, you can prove it by sending the money to a UBA account XXX which is our account. We will lock it until all travel costs are paid. "

So now its only one sentence and not 1600 points...

I don't know how simple you think this is, but this sort of stuff has highly paid people working in large teams to get the 100 most common situations covered, otherwise they should be known as case studies for demostrative purposes only and should not be taken as a guarantee that your visa will be issued.

They are more like general help so that most of the cases propably will be covered. Then, as I said, if something is missing the UBA can call or contact by email to ask more docs/info. And small fee applies.

pennylessinindia wrote:one long rant just cause your friend did not get a visa . If they had got the visa there would be no ranting .

No, its not about the result I got. The officer did what he had to do, and actually did it correctly according to rules given to him. Also most of the things he writes on the desicion letter are correct (like its true she did not provide all the evidence properly). Although I do disagree with some logic he wrote - like him writing about her document "You said you are a shareholder of company YYY. But because its a *photocopy* we cannot be sure its genuine". What is this!! In her homecountries office they said to her when she returned the application, that she does not need to give original, they will make/take copy of it. So why does the officer use "copy" as a negative reason although the other officer accepted it to be copy?.
As I already said, I am writing here because there is no help/support for fixing it and if I make another application it costs me £75 more. And if that fails its another £75. Like for example in housing benefit office, they call you if a document is missing or inadequate. Also I can call them to ask how to get/make the documents. Then they keep their words and do accept the given documents if you follow what they said (which is nice). For example if they say that "screen copy of your internet account is fine". Then you do it, and they accept is! Simple. But if I do not know that kind of stuff, which I dont, then obviously I would assume that print screen would not work, and cannot risk doing it.

I would say, increase the services fees a bit (£100) but give full service backed up with phone/email support. And small extra fees apply if they need to ask more details.

There are plenty of people who can advise how to complete the from correctly and show the correct details .

Maybe, although it takes a lot of effort to find it. Maybe this kind of forum can help. But it took me 3-4 days full on work to find out even some free help online. And I still do not know how to prove 100% properly things. Like I have one extra room in my shared house she could stay. Ok, I have found after search that I need to prove that by getting a letter from my landlord stating that there is a free room etc. But again, the officers could then complain that they are not sure if I have accomodated other people this year before her more than 2 weeks, which would make it illegal for her to also stay another 2 weeks (legally I am allowed to accomodate like 2 weeks my guests here). So you see, there is always a possiblity to find wholes in things, so again I would be standing of risky ground because I do not know how far they need proofs and documents. How much I need to prove something? Where is the limit? If the officer simply contacted me , I could easily and *quickly* get the right answer that what proof exatcly is enough.

The guidance in the most is clear and where not then trained advisors can help .

Its true that I could hire a trained advisor and it would go right. But not everyone is rich and have money to do it. For many people £400 is big money to pay to get help. Think about students for example. Unfortunately £400 is also a bit too much for me also. I can do it, but it would weaken my situation too much. And its not acceptable that I have to pay such money to get a simple visitor visa (somebody visiting only 2 weeks). I understand £400 if its somekind of complex situation, but this simple...

Getting a visa is not a right.

Yes and no. I think its every citizens right to meet their friend or wifes if their situation is "normal". If one person can meet their friend, then others should also have the right. Otherwise it becomes partiality and the rich rules again... those who are rich/famous can get visas and poor cannot?? Does not sound very good to me.

I did not pass an exam once who to blame me did not learn enough . I could have said the teacher did not teach me well ,

Visa application filling and doing exams are not really the same thing. In exams they test your *skills* but in Visa applications they should not be testing your skills to fill up forms, but they should be after the facts... to receive facts about your sitution.
Think about a situation where a Pakistan person who is a British citizen wants to see his dying father and needs the visa. So if he does not pass the "exam" of filling well the forms he fails to see his father last time?? I do not think these things should be about our skills to filling up forms but just getting the right information and documents.

jp70 wrote: It does not need to go that deep in levels. They could simply say: "If you have a lot of money, you can prove it by sending the money to a UBA account XXX which is our account. We will lock it until all travel costs are paid. "

Now you've just employed an army of accountants to keep track of all this ... plus further legal cases ... issues around interest ... money getting lost in transit ... international transfer fees ... amounts lost due to currency conversion ...

So costs are now even higher.

It also still doesn't prove that it is their money, nor that it is for their use. The main thing they want to see is the steady stream of income - a large sum of cash recently deposited or with no evidence where it comes from looks like someone trying to say "look - I have money" for UKBA - then the owner of the money will take it back after the application is successful.


On the 'how much do things cost' element - here's the new charges for this year for visas:

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitec ... g-2011.pdf

Alongside the charges are the unit costs. You can see that the largest application count item (the 6 month visitor visa) has a negative margin of 50%.

You can see application numbers here:

http://www.ukvisas.gov.uk/en/howtoapply/processingtimes

And you can then compare that to how much money they 'make' on each visa application. It's not much at all (with the exception of some items like the 10 year visitor visa - but application counts are so low - that won't cover the losses on the 6 month visitors)

But - you know - don't let a few facts cloud your judgement.

M.

Firstly, I am not here arguing, dont get me wrong. Just fixing things... and its good that I get replies so we can find the truth.

Secondly, I think I really have a point here. The thing is, that I am saying this generally speaking: In this issues the UBA s website is not adequate to tell information how to fill up forms properly.

I do programming as a profession. If I go to certain site where I will donwload a library to do some programming task, I would also complain there (especially if its paid site) that the documentation is too weak if it is. So I am not attacking UBA just because "I dont like them". Its because the documentation really is a bit weak. I will do the same thing with Microsofts documentation if I see they give information which is not clear and detailed to install something for example.

I have seen hundreds of weak documentations on different levels of life, so speaking from that perspective.

MPH80 wrote:
Now you've just employed an army of accountants to keep track of all this ... plus further legal cases ... issues around interest ... money getting lost in transit ... international transfer fees ... amounts lost due to currency conversion ...

"accountants"? A computer system cannot take care of that? Do you need an accountant to see if the money is on a bank account/system?

" plus further legal cases" In what situtions you would get these?

"issues around interest ... money getting lost in transit ... international transfer fees ... amounts lost due to currency conversion ... " All these costs are paid by the client applying the Visa. They are just happy to do that...

It also still doesn't prove that it is their money, nor that it is for their use. The main thing they want to see is the steady stream of income - a large sum of cash recently deposited or with no evidence where it comes from looks like someone trying to say "look - I have money" for UKBA - then the owner of the money will take it back after the application is successful.

True, but I did not even try to make the suggestiong right. It was just an example how they could possibly solve it. What I mean is , that there could be some system and then they just inform how to use that system.

How about a system where the applicant buys the return air ticket before the trip and if the result of the desicion is negative they can get the ticket money back by law? Is the result is positive, they cannot get the ticket money back by law. This would solve the problem of having enough money to go back to their country and we dont need to see bank statements etc.

jp70 wrote: "accountants"? A computer system cannot take care of that? Do you need an accountant to see if the money is on a bank account/system?

We both pay £3000 in to the same account - how does the computer know which is which? What if I send it before the visa application is in train? What if it fails to arrive?

Of course - if you made it a payment/refund system which is more easily trackable then UKBA is now paying debit/credit card transaction fees ... and then you're excluding a lot of people who don't have those cards.

" plus further legal cases" In what situtions you would get these?

"I sent the money - UKBA say it never arrived - they are lying I'm sure of it" ... "I sent the money ... UKBA never sent it back but they say they did".

How about a system where the applicant buys the return air ticket before the trip and if the result of the desicion is negative they can get the ticket money back by law? Is the result is positive, they cannot get the ticket money back by law. This would solve the problem of having enough money to go back to their country and we dont need to see bank statements etc.

Fantastic - you've just invented a way for me to get a refund on a non-refundable ticket. All I have to do is pay a basic visitor visa fee with no documentation and I'd get refused ... present that to the airline and I get my money back. Genius!

Of course - why would I have booked the ticket in the first place? Well - perhaps I already have a visa and I was planning on going back and forth - but my plans changed for example.

I think I may set myself up as a dodgy visa agent.

Not enough money, no well paying job, no problem. Borrow £3k and get your visa, my fee is £250.

I also can make money because I own secure storage that will be needed for outstanding cases. With the new system where you send in an incomplete application and an entry clearance officer checks it, sees the applicant has provided enough information, contacts the applicant and then asks the applicant to explain their personal situation, the ECO then tries to work out what the applicant could send in to make the application better, agrees this with the applicant, sends a letter, waits for a response and then makes a decision, we need four times the current storage space. I have it so I am quids in.

We will also need to have international conferences with all the relevant airline regulation authorities to pass a new regulation where in the case of a British visa refusal the ticket holder can get a refund. It will take a while to get the international standard of evidence required agreed. UKBA will also need to set up a separate secure system that links to all airline booking systems so that the airline can verify that a refund is due.

All this will be no problem, a couple of years worth of work, and Iran's flag carriers refuse to sign up, and Afghanistan cannot afford to change their system, but not a problem at all.

MPH80 wrote:"I sent the money - UKBA say it never arrived - they are lying I'm sure of it" ... "I sent the money ... UKBA never sent it back but they say they did".

But how often this kind of problem would happen if they use bank accounts? Its easy to check from the bank account if money arrived or not. What is the problem? I dont see any problems. Or you think bank cant trace transactions??

How many this kind of problems normal online shops have. I dont think many. Lets ask for example www.ebuyer.com that how many times they are sued because the custormer said they sent the money to them via electric system, but ebuyer claims that its not in their bank account? I guess, not many...

Its very very easy to prove that you sent money using PayPal for example, you go to a court. Computer dont lie... and transactions go through the computer system/bank system.

Please explain what you mean, you cannot mean this, do you?

MPH80 wrote: We both pay £3000 in to the same account - how does the computer know which is which? What if I send it before the visa application is in train? What if it fails to arrive?

If a person A sends money to my account from his bank account and person B sends money from his bank account to my account, it is pretty easy to know how much eatch sent. . I can see it immediately from my online statement.

Am not sure what you mean... but the computer could easily pick up who sends money from the "instructions" field for example (sender could type their name for example there). Of from the senders bank account number.

Of course - if you made it a payment/refund system which is more easily trackable then UKBA is now paying debit/credit card transaction fees ... and then you're excluding a lot of people who don't have those cards.

Client pays all those fees, its easy to make so. And I think most of the people who work in the UK do have debit/credit card. It would just make it easier for many people.

PaperPusher wrote:I think I may set myself up as a dodgy visa agent.
Not enough money, no well paying job, no problem. Borrow £3k and get your visa, my fee is £250.

Although you could set up this business even with current UBA laws! Namely, you can "employ" the client for 6months and give constant "salary" into his bank account. Then client can make the claim having good 6 months statements proving he is earning well.

jp70 wrote:Firstly, I am not here arguing

I think that's exactly what you are doing.

Greenie wrote:

jp70 wrote:Firstly, I am not here arguing

I think that's exactly what you are doing.

No, disagreeing with somebody is not the same as "arguing". And logically trying to prove somebody is wrong is also not arguing. This is done in universities etc, and they are not "arguing".

Is it wrong to disagree? How can you ever make good changes, if nobody disagrees?

Luther King *disagreed* with the current thinking by saying "blacks are equal with whites". What would have happened if he/hes followers would not have disagreed?

Also, freedom of speech is based exatcly on this "somebody disagrees with somobody else, and can express his disagreement publicly". People dont like what he says, but thats the definition of freedom of speech.

I am trying to show logical errors in current system, thats what I am doing.

Ok, if we define arguing as "having a disagreement with somebody", then almost all of us are arguing here . At least those who has posted more than 1000 posts.
When i said arguing, i meant that i am not only arguing here, but complaining and reasoning. I also have a reason (a difficult situtuation to solve), so the *reason* is not arguing but finding solution and complaining about the current situation.

"Instructions field" and this will work for hundreds of thousands of people!!!!!! And the computer can "pick it up"!!! You can write whatever you want as the sender to come up in the other person's statements!! I write things to family and friends as a joke. Human error will also come in to it too, one letter out and the money is from a whole different applicant.

Do not forget that you need a system that works for pretty much the whole planet. So what if most people in the UK have debit or credit cards, that does not follow for the rest of the world. People in many countries do not necessarily have bank accounts. Their income may be paid in to a cooperative farming account. In countries with joint family systems the money is often held in an account in the name of the male head of the family. Some countries do not have functioning bank systems, for example Somalia.

People do come to the UK without knowing anyone, just to see the sights, tour the Highlands, see Big Ben and so on.

Try harder please.

The idea of bonds has been researched in the UK for visitor's visas. The two main objections are:

It makes the cost of coming to the UK illegally the cost of the bond, and cheaper than the back of a lorry.
When a whole family or group travels together, say to visit the UK for a wedding, the value of the bond would be eye watering even to people earning UK salaries, never mind the average income from say, Bangladesh, where lots of people do to travel to the UK.

jp70 wrote:

MPH80 wrote: We both pay £3000 in to the same account - how does the computer know which is which? What if I send it before the visa application is in train? What if it fails to arrive?

If a person A sends money to my account from his bank account and person B sends money from his bank account to my account, it is pretty easy to know how much eatch sent. . I can see it immediately from my online statement.

Am not sure what you mean... but the computer could easily pick up who sends money from the "instructions" field for example (sender could type their name for example there). Of from the senders bank account number.

Of course - if you made it a payment/refund system which is more easily trackable then UKBA is now paying debit/credit card transaction fees ... and then you're excluding a lot of people who don't have those cards.

Client pays all those fees, its easy to make so. And I think most of the people who work in the UK do have debit/credit card. It would just make it easier for many people.

jp70 wrote:

PaperPusher wrote:I think I may set myself up as a dodgy visa agent.
Not enough money, no well paying job, no problem. Borrow £3k and get your visa, my fee is £250.

Although you could set up this business even with current UBA laws! Namely, you can "employ" the client for 6months and give constant "salary" into his bank account. Then client can make the claim having good 6 months statements proving he is earning well.

Which is why people often have to have additional evidence of the source of the funds.

But, yes, people do do this. I have read enough news articles over the years where people get convicted to know it is quite common.

PaperPusher wrote:

jp70 wrote:

PaperPusher wrote:I think I may set myself up as a dodgy visa agent.
Not enough money, no well paying job, no problem. Borrow £3k and get your visa, my fee is £250.

Although you could set up this business even with current UBA laws! Namely, you can "employ" the client for 6months and give constant "salary" into his bank account. Then client can make the claim having good 6 months statements proving he is earning well.

Which is why people often have to have additional evidence of the source of the funds.

But, yes, people do do this. I have read enough news articles over the years where people get convicted to know it is quite common.

Its very easy to do this trick actually. If you give me couple of weeks, I can easily create a system where I employ a programmer for example to code for me. Then I value his code so much that he does not need to even work much, and I give a lot of money. There is no way really them to argue that I am doing something wrong. I make the value of the code. Also there is no way they can check how long he has been working from home to me.

I will just register as a self employed, and then register so that I can employ people.

Not that I am interested in doing that, but am just saying that there is no sure way to check these money issues. This is why I dont undertand why they have no method of checking that I really have now £2000 money (which I do have).

Also I know many full time workers who are contantly out of money. So even a good job cannot guarantee that you can provide.

This is why I am saying, that the best method is to give the money somehow beforehand, like buying tickets or putting money beside. This way it does not matter whether you are working or not. If you won a lottory, you would still be fine.

PaperPusher wrote: The idea of bonds has been researched in the UK for visitor's visas. The two main objections are:

It makes the cost of coming to the UK illegally the cost of the bond, and cheaper than the back of a lorry.
When a whole family or group travels together, say to visit the UK for a wedding, the value of the bond would be eye watering even to people earning UK salaries, never mind the average income from say, Bangladesh, where lots of people do to travel to the UK.

Why cannot UBA release all the desicion letters (succesfull and refuced) publicly on their website. And things related to them (of course deleting peronall details like names and bank number). Then I could browse all succesfull African desicions and see how to prove certain things? That would be very helpfull because many people have the same situation what I have.

It would not take a lot of effort to do this.

It is easy enough to do once, but multiply that by 500,000 and it is time consuming and costly. I do not understand why this would be done just for one continent. There is no such thing as reasons for approval letters either.

I do not know if you have ever seen a US visitor's visa refusal, but the decision maker puts a cross in a box saying you have been refused, signature, name of applicant in pen in a poorly photocopied template, and that is all you get.

jp70 wrote:

PaperPusher wrote: The idea of bonds has been researched in the UK for visitor's visas. The two main objections are:

It makes the cost of coming to the UK illegally the cost of the bond, and cheaper than the back of a lorry.
When a whole family or group travels together, say to visit the UK for a wedding, the value of the bond would be eye watering even to people earning UK salaries, never mind the average income from say, Bangladesh, where lots of people do to travel to the UK.

Why cannot UBA release all the desicion letters (succesfull and refuced) publicly on their website. And things related to them (of course deleting peronall details like names and bank number). Then I could browse all succesfull African desicions and see how to prove certain things? That would be very helpfull because many people have the same situation what I have.

It would not take a lot of effort to do this.

PaperPusher wrote:It is easy enough to do once, but multiply that by 500,000 and it is time consuming and costly. I do not understand why this would be done just for one continent. There is no such thing as reasons for approval letters either.

I do not know if you have ever seen a US visitor's visa refusal, but the decision maker puts a cross in a box saying you have been refused, signature, name of applicant in pen in a poorly photocopied template, and that is all you get.

I agree that the refusal letter has at least a lot of reasons. They might indicate how to solve. But still,,, I dont know how to solve the money issue. Dont tell me that get a job!