what form for non-Irish child of EU-first now Irish parent

HI,

My family came over here based on my EU nationality. In the meantime I became Irish and they need to renew their GBNID cards. There is a form for spouses (Spouse/Civil Partner of Irish National Scheme) which seems to cover it but I don't see anything for the minors. How do we reapply for his card?

best

Not familiar with EUTR, hence can't comment on the possibility to keep exercising the rights as a dual national. I would assume @littler can advise on that.

If it's not possible, treat him as a family dependent?

Or, if your family members have been exercising treaty rights for 5 years, they can go for permanent residence card via EUTR:

If you have lived in the State for a continuous period of five years or more as the family member of an EEA national and have complied with the Regulations, then you may apply for a permanent residence card. This card is valid for ten years and allows the holder to work or operate a business in the State.

I can't exercise EU rights anymore if I am Irish too, this is 100% confirmed.
I looked at the dependant form but it mentions ages of 16-18 or "23 in full time education". I focused on the first bit only but I think now that "23 in full time education" could also cover a 12yr old?

lukk wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 20, 2023 12:52 pm

I can't exercise EU rights anymore if I am Irish too, this is 100% confirmed.
I looked at the dependant form but it mentions ages of 16-18 or "23 in full time education". I focused on the first bit only but I think now that "23 in full time education" could also cover a 12yr old?

I'd say 16-18 age gap is stated here due to the fact minors don't have to register with ISD and get IRP; minors apply for re-entry visa to travel.
Besides, if we look into the policy document, it states that:

For the purposes of this document, the different categorisations of family
applied are:
(a) Immediate Family
 Nuclear family – Spouse and children under the age of 18;

wrt 16-18:

22.2 The 2004 Immigration Act does not provide for the registration of
children aged under 16 although it is intended to abolish this limitation.
However, in the interim, it is now proposed as part of policy on family
reunification to provide for specific immigration permission for such
children on an administrative basis. This will allow the children to
establish their personal residence history at an earlier date.

lukk wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 20, 2023 12:52 pm

I can't exercise EU rights anymore if I am Irish too, this is 100% confirmed.

are you sure? see Lounes

A non-EU national may benefit from a right of residence in the Member State in
which his EU citizen family member resided before acquiring the nationality of that
Member State in addition to her nationality of origin

lukk wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 20, 2023 12:52 pm

I can't exercise EU rights anymore if I am Irish too, this is 100% confirmed.
I looked at the dependant form but it mentions ages of 16-18 or "23 in full time education". I focused on the first bit only but I think now that "23 in full time education" could also cover a 12yr old?

That is 100% incorrect. If this was suggested to you by an immigration lawyer or immigration officer, you should file a complaint as that is one of the most basic knowledge.

You can continue exercising EU Treaty rights if you have not stopped exercising the treaty rights at the time of your naturalisation. The same applies to Irish nationals who exercised treaty rights in a different EU country and then decided to come back to Ireland. Even though they are Irish, EU Treaty still applies to them and their family.

In addition, there is no such thing as ‘renewal’ of EU Treaty Rights. They cannot be renewed. Your non-EU family initially get EU1 for five years. After that five years, they acquire permanent residence *on their own rights*. Whether you are an EU National or not, whether you live in Ireland or not, is irrelevant. They simply complete the EU3 application and wait for approval.

meself2 wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 20, 2023 1:18 pm

lukk wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 20, 2023 12:52 pm

I can't exercise EU rights anymore if I am Irish too, this is 100% confirmed.

are you sure? see Lounes

A non-EU national may benefit from a right of residence in the Member State in
which his EU citizen family member resided before acquiring the nationality of that
Member State in addition to her nationality of origin

Yes, the very immigration authorities stated this and even provided me the quote of the relevant legal section. Once you become Irish you cannot re-apply / renew based on EU treaty rights. My family got locked out abroad (despite having prior lived here for 5yrs) and our re-entry visa based on EU rights was rejected. They are back in Ireland but we still need to renew the cards / their permit.

littlerr wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 20, 2023 1:18 pm

lukk wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 20, 2023 12:52 pm

I can't exercise EU rights anymore if I am Irish too, this is 100% confirmed.
I looked at the dependant form but it mentions ages of 16-18 or "23 in full time education". I focused on the first bit only but I think now that "23 in full time education" could also cover a 12yr old?

That is 100% incorrect. If this was suggested to you by an immigration lawyer or immigration officer, you should file a complaint as that is one of the most basic knowledge.

You can continue exercising EU Treaty rights if you have not stopped exercising the treaty rights at the time of your naturalisation. The same applies to Irish nationals who exercised treaty rights in a different EU country and then decided to come back to Ireland. Even though they are Irish, EU Treaty still applies to them and their family.

In addition, there is no such thing as ‘renewal’ of EU Treaty Rights. They cannot be renewed. Your non-EU family initially get EU1 for five years. After that five years, they acquire permanent residence *on their own rights*. Whether you are an EU National or not, whether you live in Ireland or not, is irrelevant. They simply complete the EU3 application and wait for approval.

100% correct in my case. My family's residence renewal didn't go through on time and we learnt about it a few days before they were due to go back home to visit the family. They got locked out of Ireland for 5 months before we managed to get them the re-entry visa. Our first re-entry visa application was rejected because I was already Irish and this was clearly stated as a reason by the immigration authority. I had to re-apply on the basis of being Irish national now. Now they can only re-apply for their permits based on my Irish nationality, the EU thing is gone...

meself2 wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 20, 2023 1:07 pm

lukk wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 20, 2023 12:52 pm

I can't exercise EU rights anymore if I am Irish too, this is 100% confirmed.
I looked at the dependant form but it mentions ages of 16-18 or "23 in full time education". I focused on the first bit only but I think now that "23 in full time education" could also cover a 12yr old?

I'd say 16-18 age gap is stated here due to the fact minors don't have to register with ISD and get IRP; minors apply for re-entry visa to travel.
Besides, if we look into the policy document, it states that:

For the purposes of this document, the different categorisations of family
applied are:
(a) Immediate Family
 Nuclear family – Spouse and children under the age of 18;

wrt 16-18:

22.2 The 2004 Immigration Act does not provide for the registration of
children aged under 16 although it is intended to abolish this limitation.
However, in the interim, it is now proposed as part of policy on family
reunification to provide for specific immigration permission for such
children on an administrative basis. This will allow the children to
establish their personal residence history at an earlier date.

Thanks, I simply need him to get a GBNID card (or something similar) or a relevant long-term visa for Ireland stamped into the passport so that we can travel abroad. Every time we traveled we were asked for both (card + passport)

lukk wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 20, 2023 1:40 pm

100% correct in my case. My family's residence renewal didn't go through on time and we learnt about it a few days before they were due to go back home to visit the family. They got locked out of Ireland for 5 months before we managed to get them the re-entry visa. Our first re-entry visa application was rejected because I was already Irish and this was clearly stated as a reason by the immigration authority.

Would it be possible to specify what was in the refusal letter (without personal details, obviously)?
The fact that they had to apply for a re-entry visa abroad might've overcomplicated things, but they should still be able to either get a permanent residence via EUTR3 or another residence permit as a family member of EEA citizen, as said in Lounes.
Are you still a EU national?

lukk wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 20, 2023 1:47 pm

Thanks, I simply need him to get a GBNID card (or something similar) or a relevant long-term visa for Ireland stamped into the passport so that we can travel abroad. Every time we traveled we were asked for both (card + passport)

Minors under 16 don't get IRP cards at all. They used to get a visa, but now it's unclear, since they mention they've temporarily stopped the processing (see https://www.irishimmigration.ie/suspens ... -16-years/). Send them an email/letter to ask about your options if you don't want to take the chances.

meself2 wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 20, 2023 2:03 pm

lukk wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 20, 2023 1:40 pm

100% correct in my case. My family's residence renewal didn't go through on time and we learnt about it a few days before they were due to go back home to visit the family. They got locked out of Ireland for 5 months before we managed to get them the re-entry visa. Our first re-entry visa application was rejected because I was already Irish and this was clearly stated as a reason by the immigration authority.

Would it be possible to specify what was in the refusal letter?
The fact that they had to apply for a re-entry visa abroad might've overcomplicated things, but they should still be able to either get a permanent residence via EUTR3 or another residence permit as a family member of EEA citizen, as said in Lounes

lukk wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 20, 2023 1:47 pm

Thanks, I simply need him to get a GBNID card (or something similar) or a relevant long-term visa for Ireland stamped into the passport so that we can travel abroad. Every time we traveled we were asked for both (card + passport)

Minors under 16 don't get IRP cards at all. They used to get a visa, but now it's unclear, since they mention they've temporarily stopped the processing (see https://www.irishimmigration.ie/suspens ... -16-years/). Send them an email/letter to ask about your options if you don't want to take the chances.

the letter stated in black and white that one can only apply for re-union based on EU treaty rights if one isn't the national of the country for which the application is made. Exact wording "as your sponsor is an Irish citizen, they cannot sponsor your application under the Directive 2004/38/EC. Article of the Directive clearly states "This Directive shall apply to all Union citizens who move to or reside in a Member State other than that of which they are a national, and to their family members...."

If minors dont get IRP cards (my son had his own GBNID card though) then I need at least a visa in his passport to allow us to travel.

It's ironic as the embassy abroad that was forwarding our application informed us that it wouldnt be a problem.

lukk wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 20, 2023 2:14 pm

meself2 wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 20, 2023 2:03 pm

lukk wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 20, 2023 1:40 pm

100% correct in my case. My family's residence renewal didn't go through on time and we learnt about it a few days before they were due to go back home to visit the family. They got locked out of Ireland for 5 months before we managed to get them the re-entry visa. Our first re-entry visa application was rejected because I was already Irish and this was clearly stated as a reason by the immigration authority.

Would it be possible to specify what was in the refusal letter?
The fact that they had to apply for a re-entry visa abroad might've overcomplicated things, but they should still be able to either get a permanent residence via EUTR3 or another residence permit as a family member of EEA citizen, as said in Lounes

lukk wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 20, 2023 1:47 pm

Thanks, I simply need him to get a GBNID card (or something similar) or a relevant long-term visa for Ireland stamped into the passport so that we can travel abroad. Every time we traveled we were asked for both (card + passport)

Minors under 16 don't get IRP cards at all. They used to get a visa, but now it's unclear, since they mention they've temporarily stopped the processing (see https://www.irishimmigration.ie/suspens ... -16-years/). Send them an email/letter to ask about your options if you don't want to take the chances.

the letter stated in black and white that one can only apply for re-union based on EU treaty rights if one isn't the national of the country for which the application is made. Exact wording "as your sponsor is an Irish citizen, they cannot sponsor your application under the Directive 2004/38/EC. Article of the Directive clearly states "This Directive shall apply to all Union citizens who move to or reside in a Member State other than that of which they are a national, and to their family members...."

If minors dont get IRP cards (my son had his own GBNID card though) then I need at least a visa in his passport to allow us to travel.

It's ironic as the embassy abroad that was forwarding our application informed us that it wouldnt be a problem.

Hey you are correct, no IRP cards anymore for the minors. I need to apply for another re-entry visa for my son. Given it's 15-20 days waiting time this works well for our May holidays abroad. Let's hope my wife can get her card in time...

lukk wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 20, 2023 2:26 pm

lukk wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 20, 2023 2:14 pm

meself2 wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 20, 2023 2:03 pm

lukk wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 20, 2023 1:40 pm

100% correct in my case. My family's residence renewal didn't go through on time and we learnt about it a few days before they were due to go back home to visit the family. They got locked out of Ireland for 5 months before we managed to get them the re-entry visa. Our first re-entry visa application was rejected because I was already Irish and this was clearly stated as a reason by the immigration authority.

Would it be possible to specify what was in the refusal letter?
The fact that they had to apply for a re-entry visa abroad might've overcomplicated things, but they should still be able to either get a permanent residence via EUTR3 or another residence permit as a family member of EEA citizen, as said in Lounes

lukk wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 20, 2023 1:47 pm

Thanks, I simply need him to get a GBNID card (or something similar) or a relevant long-term visa for Ireland stamped into the passport so that we can travel abroad. Every time we traveled we were asked for both (card + passport)

Minors under 16 don't get IRP cards at all. They used to get a visa, but now it's unclear, since they mention they've temporarily stopped the processing (see https://www.irishimmigration.ie/suspens ... -16-years/). Send them an email/letter to ask about your options if you don't want to take the chances.

the letter stated in black and white that one can only apply for re-union based on EU treaty rights if one isn't the national of the country for which the application is made. Exact wording "as your sponsor is an Irish citizen, they cannot sponsor your application under the Directive 2004/38/EC. Article of the Directive clearly states "This Directive shall apply to all Union citizens who move to or reside in a Member State other than that of which they are a national, and to their family members...."

If minors dont get IRP cards (my son had his own GBNID card though) then I need at least a visa in his passport to allow us to travel.

It's ironic as the embassy abroad that was forwarding our application informed us that it wouldnt be a problem.

Hey you are correct, no IRP cards anymore for the minors. I need to apply for another re-entry visa for my son. Given it's 15-20 days waiting time this works well for our May holidays abroad. Let's hope my wife can get her card in time...

You can't; see the link I posted - they stopped with the visas as well.
https://irishimmigration.ie/registering ... -under-16/

Please be advised that Re-entry Visas for children departing the State and returning within a short term basis
remain suspended until further notice. Children must be accompanied by their parent or legal guardian who
have an in date permission to reside in the State.

That's where treaty rights would've come into play; IRPs for minors aren't given in circumstances besides that.

A minor who holds an Irish residence permit, the IRP or GNIB card, does not need a re-entry visa. IRP and GNIB cards are issued to minors who are resident in Ireland on the basis of EU Treaty Rights and have an EU FAM 4 permission.

Other minors are not registered and do not receive an Irish residence permit.

I'd certaily have a chat with Treaty Rights Division to keep your family's status under Treaty Rights.

As has been explained to you, if you were exercising EU Treaty Rights before you became an Irish citizen, and you continue doing the same thing you were doing before after naturalisation (work, study or being self-sufficient), you and your family still qualify for EU Treaty rights. There is no ambiguity on that.

INIS processes tens of thousands of EU Treaty Rights visa applications, and I would be very surprised if the person who dealt with your application did not know that. There were a large surge in such applications due to Brexit in the last few years, so every decision officer should know the policy well enough.

The letter you received is a template letter. As a few people have demonstrated here, INIS is a lazy bunch and they would not care to amend the refusal reasons in quite a few cases. You can and you should use this to advantage to raise an appeal as the refusal reason does not apply to you.

The question is whether you have submitted sufficient proof when you make your visa applications for your family. The onus is on you to make all relevant facts clear to the officer.

Your application can be a bit confusing without supporting documentation and clarification, because:
(1) your family members should have their residence permission renewed and EU3 applied in the state before they leave the country.
(2) INIS would have issued your family with a temporary Stamp 4 permission once they receive the EU3 application.
(3) INIS does not normally deal with renewals of EU Treaty Rights visas. There should be no (or very few) cases where a person's IRP/GNIB card needs to be 'renewed'. It is expected that the applicant should apply for EU3 when they have 6 months left in their residence permit.
(4) Based on (1), (2) & (3), combined with what you have explained, it instantly looks like you are ineligible because you submitted an Irish passport presumably for an EUTR Visa application. You will get that refusal letter unless you have made it clear to the officer.

If you are still within the eligible appeal period, you should launch an appeal with the following points:

(1) show proof that you have been continuously exercising EU Treaty Rights, before and after you become a naturalised citizen;
(2) show proof that you are still an EU citizen of your native EU country;
(3) declare that neither you nor your family left the country for more than the allowed number of days every year (that is 6 months in any 12 month period).

If you are out of the appeal period, you should apply for a new visa under EU Treaty Rights.

In the unlikely event that you really have explained everything well enough but the Visa officer was simply being a jerk or did not know how to do their job, you can reach out to EU's free Solvit service to intervene. You could also get an immigration solicitor if you prefer.

Of course, the choice is yours. You can simply decide to apply for a normal visa for family members of Irish citizens. You will need to submit a few more documents, meet the minimum salary requirements, and your family members will receive a more restrictive Stamp 4 rather than Stamp 4EUFAM and they will have to renew their stamps every 1-3 years depending on the mood of the INIS officer. It's certainly going to be quicker and cheaper, but your family lose the rights to travel freely in the EU.