Page 1 of 1
ILR application refused due to initial stay in Isle of Man
Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 8:22 pm
by kosgad
Dear friends,
I am posting my case here for your suggestions and also help to solve my issue.Please spare few minutes and give your thoughts.
During my earlier UK stay/Work at Isle of man(IOM) i got my HSMP(May 2006).8 months later(1st of March 2007) i moved to mainland(England) and since then have been working here,currently doing my paediatric rotation in Mersey deanery.
I extended my visa in UK under Tier 1 in June 2008,2 years from my first HSMP application at IOM.In May 2011 before the completion of 5 years period,i enquired UKBA regarding my application for ILR.They mentioned that i should have spent total of 5 years in UK before applying for ILR,suggested me to extend my Visa once again under Tier 1,did the same.
8 months later(Feb 2012)after compensating for the length of stay in IOM,booked my PEO appt at Liverpool for ILR application and went for the same.During the initial screening process that immigration officer told that i have to spend total of 5 years form the time of first extension of visa(June 2008).This would mean that i can not apply for ILR untill June 2013,by then i would have spent 6.5 years total in UK.
My applciation was rejected stating that i had not spent total of 5years in UK with UK visa (rather than Visa form IOM).More over i was told that IOM was not part of UK but that was not the case(British Nationality Act 1981 provides a definition of the United Kingdom in section 50 (1) as including Great Britain, Northern Ireland and the Islands. The same section defines “the Islands” as “the Chanel Island and the Isle of Man”.)
The UKBA website montions that 5 years lawful stay in UK is essential for ILR but did not mention anything about the validity of visas granted in Isle of man or other channel islnads.The following act clarifies some mist around this(Immigration Act 1971 in Schedule 4 entitled “Integration with United Kingdom Law of Immigration Law of Islands” provides that leave to enter or remain granted in any of the Islands will be treated as given under this Act)
My questions are as follows.
!)Is it mandatory that i should have stayed in UK visa in UK for total of 5yrs before ILR.What about the stay in UK but under different visa(from Channel Islands/IOM)
2)If the immigration laws are very clear and common for the whole UK-does any one feel that i should have been granted ILR in June 2011 when i had already completed total of 5 years period incluidng stay in IOM.
3)Any one with similar issues and success with their ILR application?
4)should i approach legal assistance-what is the chance that i would win this case(3 more friends of mine are in the same state and planning to file a common case)
I would really appreciate your suggestions and experience/help in solving this issue.Please let me know if you require any other information that would be useful for understanding my case better.
Thank you
regards[/b]
Re: ILR application refused due to initial stay in Isle of M
Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:48 pm
by derlin
kosgad wrote:Dear friends,
I am posting my case here for your suggestions and also help to solve my issue.Please spare few minutes and give your thoughts.
During my earlier UK stay/Work at Isle of man(IOM) i got my HSMP(May 2006).8 months later(1st of March 2007) i moved to mainland(England) and since then have been working here,currently doing my paediatric rotation in Mersey deanery.
I extended my visa in UK under Tier 1 in June 2008,2 years from my first HSMP application at IOM.In May 2011 before the completion of 5 years period,i enquired UKBA regarding my application for ILR.They mentioned that i should have spent total of 5 years in UK before applying for ILR,suggested me to extend my Visa once again under Tier 1,did the same.
8 months later(Feb 2012)after compensating for the length of stay in IOM,booked my PEO appt at Liverpool for ILR application and went for the same.During the initial screening process that immigration officer told that i have to spend total of 5 years form the time of first extension of visa(June 2008).This would mean that i can not apply for ILR untill June 2013,by then i would have spent 6.5 years total in UK.
My applciation was rejected stating that i had not spent total of 5years in UK with UK visa (rather than Visa form IOM).More over i was told that IOM was not part of UK but that was not the case(British Nationality Act 1981 provides a definition of the United Kingdom in section 50 (1) as including Great Britain, Northern Ireland and the Islands. The same section defines “the Islands” as “the Chanel Island and the Isle of Man”.)
The UKBA website montions that 5 years lawful stay in UK is essential for ILR but did not mention anything about the validity of visas granted in Isle of man or other channel islnads.The following act clarifies some mist around this(Immigration Act 1971 in Schedule 4 entitled “Integration with United Kingdom Law of Immigration Law of Islands” provides that leave to enter or remain granted in any of the Islands will be treated as given under this Act)
My questions are as follows.
!) Is it mandatory that i should have stayed in UK visa in UK for total of 5yrs before ILR.What about the stay in UK but under different visa(from Channel Islands/IOM)
2)If the immigration laws are very clear and common for the whole UK-does any one feel that i should have been granted ILR in June 2011 when i had already completed total of 5 years period incluidng stay in IOM.
3)Any one with similar issues and success with their ILR application?
4)should i approach legal assistance-what is the chance that i would win this case(3 more friends of mine are in the same state and planning to file a common case)
I would really appreciate your suggestions and experience/help in solving this issue.Please let me know if you require any other information that would be useful for understanding my case better.
Thank you
regards[/b]
I'm loving this. Your case is a classic example when a regulation makes a mockery of itself.
kosgad wrote:1)Is it mandatory that i should have stayed in UK visa in UK for total of 5yrs before ILR.What about the stay in UK but under different visa(from Channel Islands/IOM)
Geographically, Isle of Man (IoM) is not the UK. By this interpretation, time spent in IoM doesn't count towards UK's ILR. Yes, you need to spend 5 years to qualify.
kosgad wrote:2)If the immigration laws are very clear and common for the whole UK-does any one feel that i should have been granted ILR in June 2011 when i had already completed total of 5 years period incluidng stay in IOM.
However, if UK immigration laws are "applicable" in IoM, commonsense has it that, you should have been granted ILR in June 2011.
kosgad wrote:4)should i approach legal assistance-what is the chance that i would win this case(3 more friends of mine are in the same state and planning to file a common case)
On a strict interpretation of the rules governing the relationship between the UK and IoM, the chance of winning your case is arguably slim. Why? IoM is an independent "country" on its own right. It has outsourced only defense and foreign relations functions (including immigration services) to the UK and a little extent, Republic of Ireland. Put this way, your 2006 HSMP was for IoM.
I can hear somebody asking; why then your 2006 HSMP entitled you to work and live in England. This is where the rules governing IoM & UK get murky and laughable. Without going into historical and political details, see the rules governing the UK and IoM as a set of special arrangements. Within this arrangement, IoM is politically and geographically NOT UK as agreed by both parties. So your 2006 HSMP was for IoM, and by dint of the special arrangement, your 2006 HSMP entitled you to work and live in England. But the special arrangement doesn't state time spent in IoM counts towards ILR in the UK. Put another way, though not a perfect example, a Spanish citizen—is legally entitled to work in the UK without permission from the latter because of a special arrangement between the UK and EU states. But the EU special arrangement doesn't state the Spanish is automatically entitled to British citizenship without spending a certain number of years in the UK.
Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:04 pm
by kosgad
Hello ,
Thank you for the details.
As you all aware that the immigration office has been changing the rules every second.The earler you get the ILR , better.More over there has been some rumours about increasing the stay for ILR to 8 years!
I really need some legal assistance/some advice regarding sending postal application for ILR/or else through a solicitor in a PEO?
please send your replies to me and aslo pass on this message to your friends if they are in the similar position.
Regards
Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:20 pm
by vinny
Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:22 pm
by ilraspirant
Is ISLE of Man not Part of UK?
Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:33 pm
by PaperPusher
ilraspirant wrote:Is ISLE of Man not Part of UK?
It isn't.
British Citizens are even subject to restrictions on employment.
http://www.gov.im/iomfinance/relocation ... ration.xml
Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:28 pm
by riyasmp
the above link doesn't say that isle of man is not a part of UK. but the law says it is a part of UK
In addition to the above, another Act of Parliament, the British Nationality Act 1981 provides a definition of the United Kingdom in section 50 (1) as including Great Britain, Northern Ireland and the Islands. The same section defines islands as Chanel Island and the Isle of Man.
Indians are not allowed to work in Kasmir it doesnt mean that kasmir is not a part of india, is it?
Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 3:34 am
by derlin
riyasmp wrote:
the above link doesn't say that isle of man is not a part of UK. but the law says it is a part of UK
In addition to the above, another Act of Parliament, the British Nationality Act 1981 provides a definition of the United Kingdom in section 50 (1) as including Great Britain, Northern Ireland and the Islands. The same section defines islands as Chanel Island and the Isle of Man.
Indians are not allowed to work in Kasmir it doesnt mean that kasmir is not a part of india, is it?
Citizenship can be acquired in three ways:
1. By virtue of one's birth on a territory
2. By parental lineage
3. Conferred by a grantor (e.g. an official, official body, or state).
Falkland Islands and Isle of man, for example, are not UK territories. So why then are Falklanders and IoM people British citizens? It was conferred to them by the state, in this case, UK. These Islands including IoMs are UK's protectorates—consequently not owned but protected by the UK.
Therefore, conferring British citizenship doesn't mean Falkland Islands IoM are territorial properties of the UK unless otherwise.
Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 8:38 am
by PaperPusher
The .gov.im web address is quite a good example of IoM's separateness to the UK.
See this site about the Tynwald
http://www.tynwald.org.im/
The IoM has an interesting history
http://www.gov.im/mnh/heritage/museums/ ... hanges.xml
The Isle of Man became the first country in the world to give women the vote in national elections
We're getting off topic now! Vinny's link is the most useful to the original poster.
riyasmp wrote:
the above link doesn't say that isle of man is not a part of UK. but the law says it is a part of UK
In addition to the above, another Act of Parliament, the British Nationality Act 1981 provides a definition of the United Kingdom in section 50 (1) as including Great Britain, Northern Ireland and the Islands. The same section defines islands as Chanel Island and the Isle of Man.
Indians are not allowed to work in Kasmir it doesnt mean that kasmir is not a part of india, is it?
Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 7:22 pm
by riyasmp
can some one explain me more about the British Nationality Act 1981 (provides a definition of the United Kingdom in section 50 (1) as including Great Britain, Northern Ireland and the Islands. The same section defines islands as Chanel Island and the Isle of Man) then.
I have got the same problem as kosgad has got. my ILR was declined too on the same background.
Intrestingly I was interviwed by UK based firm and sent me to isle of man for work ! I can understand that isle of man has got diffrent status to other part of UK, if IOM is not a part of UK why did they do that?
1) how could I work in Isle of man with UK visa?
2) When I came over to mainland, why did UKBA allow me to work here with isle of man HSMP - if thats not valid here?
3) Isle of man gave me first HSMP and UKBA offered an extension of Tier 1 when i came over to UK. If UKBA doesnt accept isle of man visa why they did not ask me to apply for a initial Tier 1 application?
4) when you say isle fo man is not a part of UK, whats the interpretation of british citizenship act 1981?
tx
Interesting discussion
Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 7:27 pm
by kosgad
Thanks for those replies and comments.
I am quite impressed with the responses posted by the group members which would help in solving the Visa/Immigration related issues.
Unfortunately still i do not have any clear idea whether i should approach solicitor and legally challenge or else wait untill June 2013 (when i would have completed 5 years in UK under UK visa) and apply for ILR.
I am really worried about changes with immigration rules every minute!
i have few more questions and i would appreciate your valuable suggestions
1)Should i apply for ILR in Isle of Man? if i do that what will happen when i apply for Naturalisation in UK in a years time? Will the UKBA accept my application at that point or refuse stating that it was granted in Isle of Man and i should get it extended their only?
2)when the immigration office claims that Isle of Man is not part of UK,by getting ILR over their ( as they consider IOM as different country) would it invalidate my Tier 1 visa what i am holding here at present.
3)Naturalisaion criteria states that a person has to spend 12 months in a valid visa with no immigration restriction (i.e ILR).In that case would i be able to apply for naturalisation here after 12 months if i get ILR form isle of Man.
Looking forward for your suggestions and advice.
Many thanks
UKBA unclear about its standing towards channel islands/IOM
Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 12:37 pm
by kosgad
Thanks for all your suggestions.
Differences in the outcomes of similar cases from UKBA clearly showed that they do not have any consistent written policy towards Channel islnads and alos IOM.Recent conversation by a solicitor with UKBA also proved the same.UKBA mentioned that since 2001 they have changed their standing/policy towards above areas but nothing can be found in their website nor any recent changes in the Acts governing channel islands.They seem to lack consistency,clear guidance, and poor knowledge incluidng ignorance about the acts governing channel islands.
Next move would be to approach the UKBA through solicitor by the way of formal legal letter.if there is no response form them in appropriate time period(Response time of UKBA),then we would take this matter to court of law.
As the Acts are very clear there is no doubt that we would be able to win our case.this is going to need financial support and please join this cause/or inform your friends if you feel that it would benefit them.
Thank you
regards
ILR application refused due to initial stay in Isle of Man
Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 11:17 pm
by kosgad
Dear friends,
I have a question for people wh have been following my/our ILR case history.
One of my(with similar issue) friend approached the UKBA regarding inconsistencies in the ILR applications from Isle of man wherein ,few people with similar immigration history had been granted ILR.The senior case worker asked for the details of those people in order to compare the case histories and assured (in writing through Email )that there would not be any actions againt them.
My questions are
1)Can UKBA revoke any ILR after it was granted ?
2)My colleagues who have received ILR are reluctant to provide their details to us and to UKBA as they are worried about their ILR/whether it would be revoked.If they refuse to give consent to pass on the details-can i give details to UKBA without their consent? are there any confidentiality issue ? is there is any other way of dealing this issue.
If the UKBA realises that they have granted ILR to people with similar case /immigration history as mine -there is a good chance for my application also to get accepted!!
I need your valuable sugestions please
Thank you
Regards
Re: ILR application refused due to initial stay in Isle of M
Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:50 am
by derlin
kosgad wrote:Dear friends,
I have a question for people wh have been following my/our ILR case history.
One of my(with similar issue) friend approached the UKBA regarding inconsistencies in the ILR applications from Isle of man wherein ,few people with similar immigration history had been granted ILR.The senior case worker asked for the details of those people in order to compare the case histories and assured (in writing through Email )that there would not be any actions againt them.
My questions are
1)Can UKBA revoke any ILR after it was granted ?
2)My colleagues who have received ILR are reluctant to provide their details to us and to UKBA as they are worried about their ILR/whether it would be revoked.If they refuse to give consent to pass on the details-can i give details to UKBA without their consent? are there any confidentiality issue ? is there is any other way of dealing this issue.
If the UKBA realises that they have granted ILR to people with similar case /immigration history as mine -there is a good chance for my application also to get accepted!!
I need your valuable suggestions please
Thank you
Regards
kosgad wrote:1)Can UKBA revoke any ILR after it was granted?
Yes, they can depending on the reasons behind the revocation. Reasons can range from deception, criminality and administrative misjudgement.
kosgad wrote:2)My colleagues who have received ILR are reluctant to provide their details to us and to UKBA as they are worried about their ILR/whether it would be revoked.If they refuse to give consent to pass on the details-can i give details to UKBA without their consent? are there any confidentiality issue ? is there is any other way of dealing this issue
While referencing your friends to strengthen your argument is understandable, it's ethically inappropriate to use their details without their consent. I suggest you pursue a class action suit against the UKBA. That's, those in similar circumstances as you to come together, and launch a joint appeal through a legal representation and/or support of your MPs.
Re: ILR application refused due to initial stay in Isle of M
Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:09 pm
by vinny
I don't think that Administrative misjudgement/error are reasons for
revocation.
Re: ILR application refused due to initial stay in Isle of M
Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:34 pm
by Greenie
vinny wrote:I don't think that Administrative misjudgement/error are reasons for
revocation.
it absolutely can't be revoked due to 'administrative misjudgement'.
Re: ILR application refused due to initial stay in Isle of M
Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 5:50 pm
by derlin
Greenie wrote:vinny wrote:I don't think that Administrative misjudgement/error are reasons for
revocation.
it absolutely can't be revoked due to 'administrative misjudgement'.
Administrative misjudgement describes visa decisions that are made in error by caseworkers. For instance, granting a three-year leave to remain when in fact it should be a year as was the case with my then girlfriend in 2003. Few weeks after the initial decision she was asked to send back her passport. The initial decision was revised to 12 months leave to remain. In 2006, there was this case where an applicant received a work visa instead of ILR. That decision was revoked when the applicant brought it to the attention of UKBA.
Re: ILR application refused due to initial stay in Isle of M
Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 10:55 pm
by Greenie
derlin wrote:Greenie wrote:vinny wrote:I don't think that Administrative misjudgement/error are reasons for
revocation.
it absolutely can't be revoked due to 'administrative misjudgement'.
Administrative misjudgement describes visa decisions that are made in error by caseworkers. For instance, granting a three-year leave to remain when in fact it should be a year as was the case with my then girlfriend in 2003. Few weeks after the initial decision she was asked to send back her passport. The initial decision was revised to 12 months leave to remain. In 2006, there was this case where an applicant received a work visa instead of ILR. That decision was revoked when the applicant brought it to the attention of UKBA.
there is no provision in law for ILR to be revoked once it has been granted due to 'administrative misjudgement'
Re: ILR application refused due to initial stay in Isle of M
Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 8:50 pm
by derlin
Greenie wrote:derlin wrote:Greenie wrote:vinny wrote:I don't think that Administrative misjudgement/error are reasons for
revocation.
it absolutely can't be revoked due to 'administrative misjudgement'.
Administrative misjudgement describes visa decisions that are made in error by caseworkers. For instance, granting a three-year leave to remain when in fact it should be a year as was the case with my then girlfriend in 2003. Few weeks after the initial decision she was asked to send back her passport. The initial decision was revised to 12 months leave to remain. In 2006, there was this case where an applicant received a work visa instead of ILR. That decision was revoked when the applicant brought it to the attention of UKBA.
there is no provision in law for ILR to be revoked once it has been granted due to 'administrative misjudgement'
This recent thread:
www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=102022 reminds me to revisit the discussion whether a previously issued visa can be revoked on the grounds of administrative error. The case of Slick086 (the creator of the thread) is subjected to revocation as was the case with my ex-girlfriend in 2003.
Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 8:57 pm
by Greenie
Limited leave granted in error can be curtailed. Indefinite leave cannot. Once granted ilr can only be revoked in very specific circumstances. Administrative error is not one of them.
Re: ILR application refused due to initial stay in Isle of M
Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 8:01 pm
by ce98118
Hi,
Do you have any update on this? I live in the Isle of man. I am eligible for applying for ILR in May next year. I'm interested in knowing if I can move to mainland UK after ILR and apply for citizenship 1 year after being in the mainland.
I tried approaching the Isle of man Immigration department and while they confirmed that I can work in the UK with IOM ILR they were unsure if after working in the UK for one year UKBA will allow citizenship.
Any advise will be helpful.
Thanks
ce98118
kosgad wrote:Dear friends,
I have a question for people wh have been following my/our ILR case history.
One of my(with similar issue) friend approached the UKBA regarding inconsistencies in the ILR applications from Isle of man wherein ,few people with similar immigration history had been granted ILR.The senior case worker asked for the details of those people in order to compare the case histories and assured (in writing through Email )that there would not be any actions againt them.
My questions are
1)Can UKBA revoke any ILR after it was granted ?
2)My colleagues who have received ILR are reluctant to provide their details to us and to UKBA as they are worried about their ILR/whether it would be revoked.If they refuse to give consent to pass on the details-can i give details to UKBA without their consent? are there any confidentiality issue ? is there is any other way of dealing this issue.
If the UKBA realises that they have granted ILR to people with similar case /immigration history as mine -there is a good chance for my application also to get accepted!!
I need your valuable sugestions please
Thank you
Regards