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I intend to leave this thread as a Sticky topic for a while, and if it is of any assistance i will leave it for the foreseeable future.

As most guys will be aware from my previous posts, which i hope you very patient members are not getting bored of, the UK has partially given effect to article 5(2) of Directive 2004/38EC, permitting residence card from 2 EEA states to be used in lieu of an EEA family permit. The two qualifying EEA states are Germany and Estonia.

It is exactly a month today since, paragraph 6 of Statutory Instruments 2013 No. 3032 (The Immigration (European Economic Area) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2013, came into effect.

I would like feedback from holder of residence card issued by Germany and Estonia, who travelled to the UK since 7th April 2004.

1. Did you encounter any problem with the airline, on attempting to bored the flight to the UK?

2. On entry to the UK, what questions were you asked, and was a stamp affixed to your passport?

3. Which queue did you use, and was the immigration office you met, aware of the changes?

4. How did you find the general experience.

I appreciate your feedback, as it may be of assistance to other members.

I have to ask, so if someone wanted to do the surrinder singh route If they went to Germany and got a residence card would they be able to go to England without the EEA family permit?

My understanding is that they could. But they would only be able to stay for a maximum of six months. To stay longer they should apply for a Residence Card once in the UK.

why only GERMANY and ESTONIA RC holders .it takes well over 7 months to get a family member of eu citizen card .despite directive states it should be issued with in 6 months .
whats wrong with cards issued from other states ?

Well the UK government is of the view, that the residence card issued by other countries does not contain adequate security and are susceptible to fraudulent use.

I am only interested and want to know that on what grounds/reasons only these two specific countries have been selected for this purpose? why others not? Is there any judgement/case reference which mention that why these two specific countries have been selected and why others not yet??

Obie wrote:Well the UK government is of the view, that the residence card issued by other countries does not contain adequate security and are susceptible to fraudulent use.

well i have seen italian RC AND it contains biometrics of applicant and its like uk biometric residence card just like ILR holders .

and police has to visit family at home before they issue rc as family member .to confirm that application is genuine.

Rolfus wrote:My understanding is that they could. But they would only be able to stay for a maximum of six months. To stay longer they should apply for a Residence Card once in the UK.

Does that mean they would not need to fulfil the requirements for an eea family permit in Germany? If they get to the UK shouldn't the process be alot easier?

Well I emailed European Casework about family members of Surinder Singhers with German and Estonian RCs and their response to me was that these family members will still have to obtain entry clearance, such as an EEA Family Permit. They said that the parts of the EEA 2006 regs that deal with British citizens and their family members (Regulation 9 and 15A(4A)) will be unaffected by the changes.

rosebead wrote:Well I emailed European Casework about family members of Surinder Singhers with German and Estonian RCs and their response to me was that these family members will still have to obtain entry clearance, such as an EEA Family Permit. They said that the parts of the EEA 2006 regs that deal with British citizens and their family members (Regulation 9 and 15A(4A)) will be unaffected by the changes.

CAN YOU COPY AND PASTE REPLY PLEASE

It is exactly as I said, toofan, but if it helps here's what they wrote:

German and Estonian residence cards are now allowed under the Immigration (European Economic Area) Regulations 2006 [as amended] (“the Regulations”), but only where the Regulations specifically state they can be provided. The parts of the Regulations that deal with the family members of British citizens are regulations 9 and 15A(4A); these parts of the Regulations are unaffected by the change regarding German and Estonian ID cards.

The Immigration Rules remain unaffected by the change.

Therefore, the family member of a British citizen must either obtain entry clearance in the usual manner or would be advised to obtain an EEA Family Permit to confirm that they were the family member of a British citizen exercising free movement rights in another EEA member state before attempting to enter the UK under the EEA route.

I hope this helps.

Kind regards,

European Operational Policy Team

Complete utter nonsense.

There is nothing to justify them saying that.

I thought so too, Obie. An RC doesn't give you a right of residence in another EU country, it's just a means of visa-free travel in the EU (or it should be).

CO (EEA Regulations: family permit) Nigeria [2007] UKAIT 00070
ASYLUM AND IMMIGRATION TRIBUNAL THE IMMIGRATION ACTS
Heard at: Belfast
Date of Hearing: 12 June 2007
Before:
Mr C M G Ockelton, Deputy President of the Asylum and Immigration Tribunal Senior Immigration Judge Deans

13. ...In any event, given that a family permit is not “entry clearance” within the definition in s33 of the Immigration Act 1971, and is not otherwise the subject of reference in the Immigration Rules themselves...

I agree that the Residence Card should replace the visa, entry clearance or EEA family permit giving right of entry, but not right of residence. I still can't find anything in European Law to support the idea that it only works to accompany or join a family member. I read the European law as saying that a Residence Card holder has the right to travel, alone, anywhere in the EEA.

Rolfus, the Schengen Handbook gives this example on page 86:

• A Slovak citizen resides with his Chinese spouse in the United Kingdom. The Chinese spouse holding a residence card, issued by the United Kingdom under Article 10 of the Directive, travels alone to France. As she travels alone, she needs to apply for a visa to enter France.

That said, the Handbook is only guidelines from the Commission and isn't law.

2004/38/EC
Article 5
2. Family members who are not nationals of a Member State shall only be required to have an entry visa in accordance with Regulation (EC) No 539/2001 or, where appropriate, with national law. For the purposes of this Directive, possession of the valid residence card referred to in Article 10 shall exempt such family members from the visa requirement.

There is nothing there that restricts the exemption to accompanying or joining. But there must surely be some source for that idea?

We're thinking of trying this route in the coming months (UK citizen, living in Germany with Russian spouse holding German RC) so it would be really useful if anyone can give feedback on whether it works or not!

infors wrote:We're thinking of trying this route in the coming months (UK citizen, living in Germany with Russian spouse holding German RC) so it would be really useful if anyone can give feedback on whether it works or not!

Hello,
Did you try this route as mentioned above because I am in same situation?
thanks

No, sadly we weren't brave enough to give it a try after we called the airline (Lufthansa) and they said that even if UK law had changed "we can't guarantee you'll be permitted to fly"

So we ended up having a very stressful last minute rush to apply for another EEA Family Permit

I'm hoping for some positive news soon but for the next trip we might again just suck it up and do the EEA FP just to minimise stress. It's not right on principle but it's so hard to get concrete information.

infors wrote:No, sadly we weren't brave enough to give it a try after we called the airline (Lufthansa) and they said that even if UK law had changed "we can't guarantee you'll be permitted to fly"

So we ended up having a very stressful last minute rush to apply for another EEA Family Permit

I'm hoping for some positive news soon but for the next trip we might again just suck it up and do the EEA FP just to minimise stress. It's not right on principle but it's so hard to get concrete information.

Yeah I am sorry to hear that, but I mean everything is in Black and white in our favour so I don't understand why they are making it complicated even if we already have settled in the 3rd country.
I hope someone can give us solid information to at least give us the courage to go along with it. Thanks for the reply anyway

infors wrote:after we called the airline (Lufthansa) and they said that even if UK law had changed "we can't guarantee you'll be permitted to fly"

If you call the airline, ask them to actually check their own IATA TIMATIC database for visa requirements.
When you do checkin, the staff will look this up on their computer, some staff call it a TIM manual, from the old days
when it was on paper.

This database can be also be checked online on the website of most Stupid or their airline group.

If the person on the phone does not know about their own visa requirement database they use at checkin,
then ask for a supervisor or someone who does.

Lufthansa is a Star Alliance member.
Star Alliance provide the online TIMATIC check
http://www.staralliance.com/en/services ... nd-health/

If you print it out, you will be looking at the same information as the checkin staff.

Thanks acme4242, that's really really helpful information - I knew there was such a database but didn't know you could query it.

For the specific situation mentioned above I queried it and indeed there is the statement:

Visa required, except for Holders of a "Family Member" Residence Card marked "(Permanent) Residence Card of a Family Member of a Union Citizen issued by Germany to family members

Just to be sure, I checked other EU countries than Germany and Estonia (to which the new update applies) and they are indeed still showing that you would need an EEA Family Permit.

So maybe we will be brave and try and go without EEA FP next time

The only downside for us is that my wife has been in Germany long enough that she now has unconditional residency, meaning that her residence card just states "unlimited" rather than "family member of a Union Citizen". We'll maybe try and see if Germany can change that, or hope that it will still be accepted.

infors wrote: The only downside for us is that my wife has been in Germany long enough that she now has unconditional residency, meaning that her residence card just states "unlimited" rather than "family member of a Union Citizen". We'll maybe try and see if Germany can change that, or hope that it will still be accepted.

Oh God... This is messy..
The first 5 years residency your wife was issued with an Article 10 card from 2004/38/EC this is the one that allows visa exemption
After 5 years, see gets permanent residency, and is issued an Article 20 card from 2004/38/EC.

There is a real mess up here, they forgot to write that Article 20 cards also allow visa exemption.

This means she does not have the card mentioned in TIMATIC or the law.

There was a guidance instruction written for the Schengen area, which says Article 20 should also be accepted
But I am unaware of anything similar for UK.

Strangely TIMATIC mentions "(Permanent) Residence Card"

Yikes That's what we feared but thanks so much for the information.

rosebead wrote:It is exactly as I said, toofan, but if it helps here's what they wrote:

German and Estonian residence cards are now allowed under the Immigration (European Economic Area) Regulations 2006 [as amended] (“the Regulations”), but only where the Regulations specifically state they can be provided. The parts of the Regulations that deal with the family members of British citizens are regulations 9 and 15A(4A); these parts of the Regulations are unaffected by the change regarding German and Estonian ID cards.

The Immigration Rules remain unaffected by the change.

Therefore, the family member of a British citizen must either obtain entry clearance in the usual manner or would be advised to obtain an EEA Family Permit to confirm that they were the family member of a British citizen exercising free movement rights in another EEA member state before attempting to enter the UK under the EEA route.

I hope this helps.

Kind regards,

European Operational Policy Team

What dishonesty is this, The McCarthy Case was about a British/Irish Citizen,
so will they say his family still needs a family permit, even ECJ says no